Diablo® III

KEY drops should NOT

09/26/2012 09:29 PMPosted by BelowZero
MAn too many people on here complaining about having to farm low levels.. and not get a key.. not be able to beat the new system they implemented in one night.. put in the leg work.. so you can farm lvl10 and get the key 100%.. its as simple as that.. really.. I dont understand the general view of D3 players.. they want to be able to master the game with little to no work.


You're right, put in the legwork, and I'll be doing great! Except no, RNG loot is RNG.
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i belive that the key dont drop unless u dont have 5 stack i tested it over 5h of farming whit out 5 stack and got 0 key at 5 stack only took a hand full of try to get a first key at lvl 3 mp

the sad part about this is the godly player will get a net avantage over the others......

100% is just too much ; i think 75 % at lvl 10 is more reasonable and go down from there per lvl

and the boss from the machine need a garenty drop, u cannot have hours of farming key to go there and get noting....
my solution to this was to have more then 3 item to creat the ring.
i prefer having 100% drop and have to do it again then geting noting and having to do it again
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i belive that the key dont drop unless u dont have 5 stack i tested it over 5h of farming whit out 5 stack and got 0 key at 5 stack only took a hand full of try to get a first key at lvl 3 mp

the sad part about this is the godly player will get a net avantage over the others......

100% is just too much ; i think 75 % at lvl 10 is more reasonable and go down from there per lvl

and the boss from the machine need a garenty drop, u cannot have hours of farming key to go there and get noting....
my solution to this was to have more then 3 item to creat the ring.
i prefer having 100% drop and have to do it again then geting noting and having to do it again

Have you even tried MP10 yet? If you can find 5 elite packs and kill them all without losing your stacks, you deserve a key. It takes a long time to kill packs on MP10 even with above 100k dps..
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well if u feel that 75% is not rewarding enough for your effort that is your opinion, i did try lvl 10 and for me it would take like 30 min to kill one elite pack maybe more.

i rather stick to my lvl range and take my chance.

if lvl 10 is your area of play i think you too should have to take a chance, less then me but still a chance, this game is base on maybe ill get it maybe not.

wow on the other hand was if i kill this boss ill will get those drop !!!!

so lets go in the midle here and every one can be happy
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MP level 10 should guarantee the Keys/Plan drop, given champions have 50-54 million hp and rare packs have at least 25mil hp each. Add the fact that you have to repeatedly farm the keys, because each infernal machine is a one time use item, it makes having a guaranteed route to obtain keys is definitely required.

That being said, I am not sure if I could kill kill the uber bosses on MP10, but I can farm the keys on MP10 for sure. Although, it takes me about an 1 hour-1 hour and half to farm the keys from act 1-3, which is not really blazingly fast.
Edited by mewbar#1710 on 9/26/2012 10:34 PM PDT
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Currently, both the keys and the demonic organ pieces (Vengeful Eye, Devil's Fang, and Writhing Spine) have higher chances to drop in higher MP levels, all the way up to 100% in MP10.

You'll need five stacks of NV in order for the keys and the demonic organ pieces to drop.


Are you saying that unless you have five stacks of NV keywardens will not ever drop keys?


Yup. (Or, at least that's how it's designed to work. If players are getting keys without the five stack, then that's likely a bug.)


My opinion on this (being a relatively casual player), is that it's a bad system right now. I haven't read the rest of thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody else has already made some (all?) of them.

First, there's way too much randomness in this system. Diablo is already pretty random, but this is going to make it even worse.

If I understand it right, the following things are random:

  • Chance for each Key Warden to drop Key/Plan
  • Which realm is opened when using device
  • Chance for each material/plan (?) to be dropped by bosses
  • Affixes on the Ring


The first, the chance for the wardens to drop keys, isn't a huge deal. That's how it currently works for everything in the game. Sure, it'll be slow - if we assume, say, 30 minutes to farm a key warden, with, say, a 1 in 5 chance of the key dropping (on average, assuming you're not able to do MP10), it will take, on average, about 2.5 hours to get a key. That's 7.5 hours for all keys, plus another 2.5 for the plan. Not ideal, but hardly absurd.

The first realm you open, it doesn't matter which one it is - any will do.

The second time you open a portal, though, if you get the same one you've already done, that's 7.5 hours wasted. Sure, you'll get some drops, but my understanding is that you'll get nothing special compared to what you'd normally get while farming, and that's gonna be *really* demotivating for anyone who actually has to work to get the keys.

Plus, of course, you might not even get a material! So, you farm for hours, you get your first portal, and what do you get? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. What did you do wrong? Nothing, you just weren't able to farm it on MP10. If that's possible, then this really, really needs a serious rethink.

Looking at the math, if we assume everything has a 1 in 5 chance of dropping and it takes you 30 minutes to get 5NV stacks and find/kill a keywarden, then it will take 7.5 hours to open a portal.

You will need to do that 5 times before you get a single material. That's 37.5 hours for one rare material. Since it didn't matter what your first material was, it didn't matter what portal you got. Now, however, it does. So you need to farm another 5 bosses to get your second material, so that's another 37.5 hours. But one of those portals (at least) lead to a realm you've already done, so add another 7.5 hours of key farming, for a total of 45 hours.

The last material requires another 5 portals, but 3 of them will be irrelevant, so that's another 3 key runs, and another 22.5 hours, meaning the third material takes 60 hours to collect.

EDIT: I think my math is bad, here. For the second material, 1/3 of the portals are bad, so assuming you need five good portals, you'd need... 5 / (1 - 1/3), or 7.5 portals, so 7 - 8. For the last material, 2/3 of the portals would be bad, so you'd need 5 / (1 - 2/3), or 15 portals. So 8 instead of 6 makes 60 hours for the second material, and 112.5 hours for the last material. Admittedly, it's not actually that bad, since you can still happily use the materials you get, even if they're not what you need right now. But that'd be about how long it takes to get your first ring, assuming that, on average, one mob in 5 drops what you want. Sometimes it might take longer, sometimes it might be quicker, but on average it will take 5 mobs to get a drop. If I'm wrong, and it's easier than that on low MP levels, then cool!

In total, you've spent 37.5 + 45 + 60 = 142.5 hours (EDIT: 210!) getting the materials for this one ring (not including the amount of time it takes to kill one of those bosses). And then the affixes might suck more than the ring you've already got, so you gotta go make another one if you want to be able to wear it... EDIT: Note that 210 hours is over 400 runs...

Now, someone has gone on record as saying that people shouldn't feel compelled to play MP10, right? Let's look at the math above, assuming that MP10 gives a 100% drop rate, but takes an hour to get 5NV and find/kill a keyholder.

3 hours to get all three keys and your first material. 4 hours to get your second material. 8 for your third. Total time? 15 hours. Maybe 20, if the bosses are hard (I wouldn't know). Not too painful.

So yeah, if I want this ring, I should really be playing MP10. If I'm playing MP0, it's never going to happen. If I'm playing MP3/4 (which is probably all I can handle), then it's also pretty unlikely to ever happen.

So you're adding this cool new content with a cool new reward to D3, but it's something that only the top 1% or so players will be able to get access to? Is this actually what you want? Is this something that was explicitly aimed only at hardcore players, with the expectation that casual players would never bother with? If the answer is yes, then... really? Really? You're aiming new content at such a small fraction (I assume) of your player base?

I was pretty excited about the new content, but now that I'm seeing how hard it is to get to, it's a major let-down :(. The other things you're doing with this patch are cool, but I've managed to finish Inferno, which is good, but this new thing is something that I'd have to put way more time than I'm comfortable with into the game to get. And you're not adding anything else into the patch that would count as new content for someone who has finished Inferno...

One other issue is that basing drop rates on MP means that the players who *most* need a new challenge - those able to farm MP10 - don't get one, since all drops are guaranteed for them. Whereas those players who could really, really do with one of these rings have no chance to get one because the drop rates on lower MP values are incredibly poor. In other words, it makes the rich, richer. Admittedly, the poor don't get poorer, but it's not a lot of fun seeing some new feature and going "That looks cool - a pity that it'll take me upwards of 100 hours to see it", while the people who most need a new challenge go "That was kinda cool, but pretty quick. What's next?".

How should you fix this? I'd suggest, at least, giving people a choice about which boss they face. Open a portal to all three realms, and let them choose! Also, have the bosses drop a material every time, regardless of MP. I don't care too much if the keys drop more on higher MP (though that strikes me as a "Win More" thing for already very good players), or making the machine reusable in some way, shape, or form.

The other alternative is to make the keys guaranteed drops, but the materials not be. This makes it easier for casual players to access the new boss content, which could be cool, while still making it tough to actually get the ring.

I'd also like to see the Act 1 and 2 Key Wardens in a smaller zone - it's just not that efficient having to clear a whole zone looking for that one elusive monster in there somewhere. It's just another level of frustration in a process that already has way, way too much of that.

Either way, please, *please* reduce the amount of randomness in this - I just don't see it being something that casual players will ever bother with otherwise.

Oh, and make it obvious that you need 5NV stacks to get a drop, yes? Maybe the key monsters shouldn't appear unless you have 5NV stacks? Either way, I think that should go in the patch notes, otherwise you will have a lot of frustrated farmers out there who don't understand what's going on.
Edited by ipsi#6544 on 9/26/2012 11:35 PM PDT
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MP10 with guaranteed drops makes sense. Why would anyone play MP10 if there were no additional rewards?
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I would rather want for keys through all Mp to have same drop chances, but have a significant increased chance of dropping higher quality items( rares, legendaries) the higher the MP is set.

also make the über bosses make the Organ a guarantied drop at all MP's, but also increase the chance significant for higher quality items to drop (rares, legendaries) depending on how high the Mp is set to.

this way it would reward all players for being able to handle Key wardens, über bosses, but at the same time rewards the higher player for being able to get alot better chance at higher quality items.

note - that currently the only viable thing to do in MP10 is farming those keys for organs and then for the ring, not farm and entire act etc, since it would not neat better results (perhaps increase MF eksponentially for higher MP's, instead of a flat amount per MP). That way people could actually perhaps do something else in MP10 becides this farming "godlike ring"
Edited by HURRICANE#2539 on 9/27/2012 12:00 AM PDT
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I think the idea of NV for drop chance is good. NV is the only thing keeping the botters from destroying the game/economy even more than it currently is.

Again this is what I think and it may be different from your opinion.
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Dropped the key yesterday,on inferno 4 Act 3 with 5 stacks,second try.
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it should be affected by magic find, not MP level

for example, if you're a high paragon level (70+) but can only manage MP6 comfortably you should be able to get a key drop almost every time in MP6

and having it be affected by magic find would still give you a greater chance of getting a key on a higher MP because of the MF benefits from MP

ALTHOUGH i do agree that it should be 100% drop on MP10 just for the amount of time it takes you to get 5 stacks and kill the keywarden... effing forever

in regards to organs though, it should be guaranteed every time despite your MP level

just like d2... because if you can't handle MP10 ubers and you spend hours getting the keys to make a portal, you could come out with nothing at all... which is pretty retarded if you ask me


i guess this could work out also
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13830
Nobody is forcing you guys to play on the hardest MP level to farm keys. They obviously fall in lower difficulties, with a reduced drop chance, deal with it. If someone is better than you and can farm them efficiently in MP10 and you are stuck doing it in say MP5, well, speaks for it self.

Get better.
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The people complaining about keys should not being guaranteed at higher MP levels clearly can't farm or don't want to farm higher MP lvls. If it was easy to get the ring it wouldn't a very satisfying endgame would it? or really give a sense of accomplishment. I've played MP lvls 9 and 10 and I say if you can farm those lvls, you deserve a key, the time investment alone is massive. Why do people think they should get the same reward without putting in the same effort? Baffles me sometimes. If you can't farm higher MP lvls, do lower ones and battle against the RNG system. Glad Blizzard gave the option to those who want guaranteed drops albeit at much greater cost/investment.
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You'll need five stacks of NV in order for the keys and the demonic organ pieces to drop.

We felt this was a reasonable requirement, otherwise players could simply farm the keys in a lower MP, then set their game to MP10 and farm bosses for guaranteed drops. With the five stack, players will at least need to be able to kill monsters in that MP level in order to benefit from the increased organ drop chance.
I agree with everything about this and completely support blizzard on this one. I feel that because it is so much harder you should be rewarded with higher drop chance on higher monster power... It will take you a lot longer though to get there so i don't see a problem. If you wanna play on lower monster power levels you'll do more runs... Now I would like to know what are the chances of the keys/organ pieces dropping depending on MP level?
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Nobody is forcing you guys to play on the hardest MP level to farm keys. They obviously fall in lower difficulties, with a reduced drop chance, deal with it. If someone is better than you and can farm them efficiently in MP10 and you are stuck doing it in say MP5, well, speaks for it self.

Get better.


sorry to say, but there is this funny random factor that applies to what MP you can farm in. the drops is that random factor, since if you got no good drops really and others got alot and is now by your difinition better?

also not forcing us? well it kinda implies a great deal if someone spent 20 hours farming the keys on MP3 etc and then end up not getting any organs, because of a random chance to get it. (physic affects those in lower MP)

if it was about skill sure I would accept it, but when loot really define you MP then is random the ultimate factor. Also when this event for let say MP5, the drops for keys is random, organs is also random, but guess what there is a triple random factor and that is the ring except for the main stats.

I desired in the begginning when Diablo 3 Launched to not nerf inferno, but it happened and now there should only be 1 aspect to get up in gear for a guarantied drop, that is not something i nor many i know like.

a little note if etc, someone takes MP1 then there is with 5 valor stacks

10 % chance to drop a key for a key warden
10 % chance to drop a organ for the übers
so the actual chance is some what like 1% chance to getting a organ for each warden you kill
Edited by HURRICANE#2539 on 9/27/2012 1:52 AM PDT
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[
sorry to say, but there is this funny random factor that applies to what MP you can farm in. the drops is that random factor, since if you got no good drops really and others got alot and is now by your difinition better?

also not forcing us? well it kinda implies a great deal if someone spent 20 hours farming the keys on MP3 etc and then end up not getting any organs, because of a random chance to get it. (physic affects those in lower MP)

if it was about skill sure I would accept it, but when loot really define you MP then is random the ultimate factor. Also when this event for let say MP5, the drops for keys is random, organs is also random, but guess what there is a triple random factor and that is the ring except for the main stats.

I desired in the begginning when Diablo 3 Launched to not nerf inferno, but it happened and now there should only be 1 aspect to get up in gear for a guarantied drop, that is not something i nor many i know like.


thats it! not even 1% of all players can farm mp10 and the time of farming on lower levels is completely useless if you wont get an organdrop.

you should make it more similar to diablo2. make the key droprate depending on mplevel, nv buff or mf, i dont care.to me, this farming can be hard and time intensive, just like in d2! but make the organdrop 100%, because if someone will spent hours and hours to farm the keys, then opens a gate, tries hard to kill the ubers and then doesnt get any reward for it (no sorry, some rare arent reward to me), he wont ever do it again.

conclusion:
-key drop like in d2, random but higher chance with higher mp level
-guaranteed organ drop (you need luck with portals anyway)

ps: dont make anything sellable! that is fine the way it is.
Edited by Deadpool#2222 on 9/27/2012 1:56 AM PDT
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[
sorry to say, but there is this funny random factor that applies to what MP you can farm in. the drops is that random factor, since if you got no good drops really and others got alot and is now by your difinition better?

also not forcing us? well it kinda implies a great deal if someone spent 20 hours farming the keys on MP3 etc and then end up not getting any organs, because of a random chance to get it. (physic affects those in lower MP)

if it was about skill sure I would accept it, but when loot really define you MP then is random the ultimate factor. Also when this event for let say MP5, the drops for keys is random, organs is also random, but guess what there is a triple random factor and that is the ring except for the main stats.

I desired in the begginning when Diablo 3 Launched to not nerf inferno, but it happened and now there should only be 1 aspect to get up in gear for a guarantied drop, that is not something i nor many i know like.


thats it! not even 1% of all players can farm mp10 and the time of farming on lower levels is completely useless if you wont get an organdrop.

you should make it more similar to diablo2. make the key droprate depending on mplevel, nv buff or mf, i dont care.to me, this farming can be hard and time intensive, just like in d2! but make the organdrop 100%, because if someone will spent hours and hours to farm the keys, then opens a gate, tries hard to kill the ubers and then doesnt get any reward for it (no sorry, some rare arent reward to me), he wont ever do it again.

conclusion:
-key drop like in d2, random but higher chance with higher mp level
-guaranteed organ drop (you need luck with portals anyway)

ps: dont make anything sellable! that is fine the way it is.


+1 :P
the big problem for me is the organs not the keys, but when we add it all up either keys or organs should be 100 % (most logic should be organs)

(this credit for calculations goes to a friend of mine)
"calculated chance for doing each warden 1 time and übers 1 time also for each MP + ofc plan"
1 0,00001 %
2 0,00128 %
3 0,02187 %
4 0,16384 %
5 0,78125 %
6 2,79936 %
7 8,23543 %
8 20,97152 %
9 47,82969 %
10 100 %
Edited by HURRICANE#2539 on 9/27/2012 2:29 AM PDT
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Even though the organs don’t drop 100%; you get good loot for all your hard work:

http://i.imgur.com/Vzape.jpg
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Even though the organs don’t drop 100%; you get good loot for all your hard work:

http://i.imgur.com/Vzape.jpg


the point is people etc feel punished for having collected all keys and then open the portals and then end up with no organs etc. = the time you just used end up lost.

i would want it to be 100 % so that people can feel "hey i collected all keys and is ready to open all portals, thanks to my hard work and is looking forward to the hellfire ring"

now it would more be for people below MP10 "hey i collected all keys and is ready to open all portals, but even though i collected it all i am still afraid i end up with nothing"
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