Diablo® III

Blizzard, a serious word regarding meteor


That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But are we absolutely working on them.


You did not consider having these nerfs and future improvements released at the same time ? Oh I guess that "nerf first, buff three month later" is the way for Blizzard to achieve balance. Problem is that in the meantime wizards will simply stop playing this game or reroll a barb. Great job.
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10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.


Meteor on 1.04 is mainly used at melee range because of the landing time. When you are at melee range it is easier to land a meteor. Against mobs with huge hp pool. Their is a chance that the fight will not move so often if people are able to tank the damage. For these people/situation the nerf hit harder than the others.

For moving fight the nerf should be balanced by the landing speed reduction.
I kinda don't like that a successful meteor on PTR feels way less rewarding that it is on 1.04. But I see your point and I agree that a landing speed reduction is coherent with a proc scalar nerf.

However ! Some people calculated the proc ratios and I am one of them. As far as I know the only variable used to explain proc scalar is the number of monster hit per second.

Spectral blade : wider area -> more monster hit -> proc scalar reduction feels logical
storm chaser : bug fix -> proc sclar reduction feels logical (even if I don't think 1/8 is the good value)
meteor : meteor -> faster landing -> more monster hit for an average situation -> proc scalar reduction feels logical (even if I don't think the PTR scalar is the appropriate or reducing the melee effectiveness of meteor is the way to go)
meteor : star pact -> faster landing -> same amount of monster hit than runeless meteor ! -> proc scalar reduced more than runeless meteor -> it does not feel logical.

Why for example mistral breeze get the same scalar than a runeless twister and not star pact for meteor ? As far as I know resource cost never influenced proc scalar and meteor is the first to had this. You can debate that because meteor has got a huge cost you are more likely to spam star pact... but if you choosed a more costy meteor you could have landed one or two signature spell instead of a meteor. It feels kinda meh...

Enjoy the game folks :) See you in game.

[EDIT : hey another guy who calculated proc ratio below my post : chears apo ! :)]
Edited by Guybrush#2456 on 10/4/2012 7:44 AM PDT
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10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

I'm sorry, did I understand that correctly? You want meteor to not be used by anyone? Because that's the situation in 1.0.4.

I'm very disappointed by that post. I really hoped for a rather lengthy dev response as to what the current problems are from your point of view (Is it CM? Is it frost nova? Is it LoH/APoC? All of the above?) and in what direction you want the wizard to develop. There is a really well written, highly rated (two times) commentary on the nerfs. Addressing communication issues and general design flaws regarding the class as a whole. Not whining, not demanding buffs, just asking for an explanation, for an acknowledgement that you have understood what the issues are.
We are practically begging for more information. And all you could do is tell us what we already know? That's weak.
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While the proc coefficient on Meteor and its runes is indeed being nerfed, this change really should be viewed within the full context of the patch. Patch 1.0.5 not only introduces [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7155884/Developer_Journal_Defensive_Bonuses_and_Monster_Damage-9_14_2012"]changes to defensive bonuses and monster damage[/url], but also the Monster Power system, and [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7100052/Developer_Journal_Crowd_Control_Changes-9_5_2012"]numerous crowd control improvements[/url]. Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime. Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But are we absolutely working on them.


It just shows the devs have no idea about the game mechanics. Nerfing the coefficients also affects LoH and APoC! Are you listening?? Can you show us how 20 APoC, which is now effectively 10 APoC in 1.0.5 can be "brought back" to 1.0.4 level????

If you dun want Meteor to become OP, fine, dun change it, keep it as is 1.0.4. I think people will be a lot more happier than having your "buff". Listen to the customers! There's no companies in history can survive if they keep enraging their customers. NONE! Did you get it???

Sigh, i guess not. If your company is publicly available, I will short you to the ground.
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10/03/2012 03:04 PMPosted by apo
we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

I'm sorry, did I understand that correctly? You want meteor to not be used by anyone? Because that's the situation in 1.0.4.

I'm very disappointed by that post. I really hoped for a rather lengthy dev response as to what the current problems are from your point of view (Is it CM? Is it frost nova? Is it LoH/APoC? All of the above?) and in what direction you want the wizard to develop. There is a really well written, highly rated (two times) commentary on the nerfs. Addressing communication issues and general design flaws regarding the class as a whole. Not whining, not demanding buffs, just asking for an explanation, for an acknowledgement that you have understood what the issues are.
We are practically begging for more information. And all you could do is tell us what we already know? That's weak.

+1
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10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance.

talking about efficiency in a wizard thread?
very funny
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Did blizzard cm really just say to us they don't want us to use specs with skills that synergize? WHAT THE F%*$ does that even mean?!?! the whole point of an rpg game is to pick skills and allocate our stat points in a way that makes each of those skills more powerful then they would be otherwise. aka maximize efficiency. I really want to know if any of these D3 developers even play rpgs.

If you don't want us to use skills that support each other what am i supposed to do? i should run archon with shock armor (so i cant take any hits), magic missle (so i cant hit multiple targets, generate good loh/ls/apoc, and most importantly, lower the cd on my archon with crit mass) lightning hydra (lol all hydras, but nothing to keep enemies from moving slower or not at all.... we wouldn't want any synergy between frost nova/blizzard and hydra causing it to possibly INCREASE (GASP!) the effectiveness of it.

This game is becoming a complete joke and reading a comment like "we dont want wizards (or any other class could have been put here tbh, wiz is just more personal to me) to use skills that synergize." i really doubt the d3 dev team now and i think ill be moving from this game soon. Obviously they don't have any clue whatsoever what they are doing.

Skills in an rpg are meant to work together. If your development team can't figure out how to balance skills that work together, you need to fire them or have then take a math course to brush up on their math skills.
Edited by Arohk#1879 on 10/3/2012 3:13 PM PDT
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While the proc coefficient on Meteor and its runes is indeed being nerfed, this change really should be viewed within the full context of the patch. Patch 1.0.5 not only introduces [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7155884/Developer_Journal_Defensive_Bonuses_and_Monster_Damage-9_14_2012"]changes to defensive bonuses and monster damage[/url], but also the Monster Power system, and [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7100052/Developer_Journal_Crowd_Control_Changes-9_5_2012"]numerous crowd control improvements[/url]. Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime. Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But are we absolutely working on them.


Indeed. EVERY change should be viewed in light of it's interaction for all the others. (I'm mentioning this for the benefit of other posters.)
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Posts: 13
FROM THE OP ~

okay so were getting ahead of ourselves here. constructive feed back please. no trolling.

first off, in 1.04 people are using meteor. read the first few pages of the post. some people are using it. just not as much as blizzard would like - hence the original buff

as the blue commented

But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime.


i beleive he was refering to post nerf on the proc rate. which would make sense. with the reduced cast delay, and decreased mana, the skill would be way too powerful. i agree with that. but the nerf in proc rate to balance that HUGE buff was not valid

10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4


people need to chill. by saying this, the blue is stating that the problem is known, and they are working on it.

also, the balancing is NOT for MP 5 and up. the balancing is for the current state of difficulty. the equivalent to MP1. Which makes sense if you really think about it....MP was introduced to make things MORE difficult for people. which means that going up in MP would be harder compared to the original state in 1.04. They are not trying to balance the game so everyone can be OP and farm MP 10 efficiently.

i appriciate the post from blizzard. it shows that they are working on the problem. thats all i could ever ask for
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blizz thinks balance is when all classes cannot do anything and keep dying. So they can achieve their money sink via repairs.
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blizzard just keeps digging itself a bigger hole. soon the grave will be big enough for the entire development team. Since when the hell does a ARPG care about balance and such and skills/items being too good? Since the RMAH is when and its destroyed this once great franchise. APRGs are supose to be fun, addicting, over the top slaughter fests w/ loot (great loot) falling from the skys. This game is nothing but tedious,boring, unimaginative trash. This game is the biggest gaming tragedy ever.
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Blizz staff is testing if the skill is underpowered on a naked char.
...
Blizz staff has confirmed the skill is underpowered. A buff to skill is done.

---- A few days later. ----

Blizz staff is testing if the skill is overpowered on a char with the top notch gear.
...
Blizz staff notices it's too overpowered. A nerf will be dealt.

...

Hence the cycle repeats itself.
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Meteor

Delay between cast and impact reduced from 2 seconds to 1.25 seconds
Arcane Power cost reduced from 60 to 50
Proc coefficient (base skill + all other runes not listed) reduced from 0.25 to 0.125
Skill Rune - Star Pact

Proc coefficient reduced from 0.25 to 0.10625


Skill Rune - Meteor Shower

Proc coefficient reduced from 0.1 to 0.05


Skill Rune - Liquefy

Proc coefficient reduced from 0.125 to 0.10625

Let's simplify:
Casting Delay: Buffed 37.5%
AP Cost: Buffed 16.7%
Proc Coefficients: Nerfed 50% - 57.5%

10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime. Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.


Small buffs + Huge nerfs =/= balance. And why would you want to bring it back to where it is in 1.0.4? If that's what you want, then why change anything at all? I thought the whole point was to make the skill more appealing to more people.

The proc coefficients should either be nerfed by only 16-38%, or the AP cost or casting delay should be reduced (buffed) by 50-57%. Otherwise, no one is going to use it.
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10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But are we absolutely working on them.


So, um... what should wizards do in the meantime while we wait for those changes? Roll barbs?

I understand the need to limit the crowd control power of CM. But with all of the proc rate nerfs, wizard has gotten to the point where none of my "chance to xyz" modifiers no longer do anything anymore except occupy valuable skill/affix slots.
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disappointed in the response. waiting for 1.06. thanks.
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To me it seems that trying to balance every possible proc, for every possible combination of skills and items (which is millions) around one number is like...I dunno... trying to balance a washing machine on the tip of your nose while riding a unicycle uphill on a frozen slope, while at the same time trying to open a clamshell packaging with one hand, and not spilling your scolding hot coffee with the other.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I haven't seen anyone at blizzard who seems to be capable of accomplishing it. (If I'm wrong please show me a video beause I'd love to see it!).

So yeah, all jokes aside, I think there lies the core of this problem.

That said, the wizard's specific problems go much further, and I guess from the following part of your post that Blizzard has realized this aswell:

...The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch.


Now, you are basically saying: yeah, we know our changes break what is working now, but we will fix it in some totaly other and awesome way and life will get better for everyone...soon

Well, since many years of development (was it 5? 10?) weren't enough to prevent this, excuse me for being sceptical.

So yeah...leave our proc coefficients alone, there is no such thing as too much power!
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cutting the proc coefficients into half .. was the worst try of fixing it ....
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Liquify will still do the trick if you want meteor as a pure survival skill. You will need to invest in a little max AP to layer the land with 3 of them at a time, figure it out, its not rocket science.
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