Diablo® III

Molten Impact VS Liquefy

11/15/2012 10:44 AMPosted by Shandlar
Welcome to the club Shandlar, was waiting for you to hit 3.0aps ;)

Just traded up on lacuni for a 9% pair. Now I just gotta double switch something so when i go to mempo I don't nuke my life while I wait for paragon vit. I'm so freaking lazy, I expected to be much further with paragon before this gear. Now I'm stranded 60 vit shy of where i want to be.

Purple gems are ugly =(


I saw, you've been on a shopping frenzy!

I can tell the andy's is just your sub in for a nice Mempo for now. Only thing I can think of is that the Mempo will probably out HP your andy's right now, giving you a small boost. Otherwise going to be hard to stack it anywhere else. Maybe your glove, but a glove with your stats + VIT I have not seen...

Sucks that we all need enchantress to hit 3.01 even with 9x9ias items. Otherwise i'd lose the Inna's and get some more eHP like some BT's as well.
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I though u need ridiculous inna pants to make 3 with OS?

Anyway I'm at school RN. looking forward to testing full meteors tonight.
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I though u need ridiculous inna pants to make 3 with OS?

Anyway I'm at school RN. looking forward to testing full meteors tonight.


You do, unassisted.

Shandlar is buffed by his enchantress putting him at 82% IAS which is exactly what he needs to break 3.01aps.
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You do, unassisted.

Shandlar is buffed by his enchantress putting him at 82% IAS which is exactly what he needs to break 3.01aps.


Enchantress is + 0.03 to weapon aps, not +3% IAS from gear.

So its 1.68 * 1.79 = 3.0072

not 1.65 * 1.82 = 3.003

Just fyi lol.

11/15/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Boozor
I can tell the andy's is just your sub in for a nice Mempo for now. Only thing I can think of is that the Mempo will probably out HP your andy's right now, giving you a small boost. Otherwise going to be hard to stack it anywhere else. Maybe your glove, but a glove with your stats + VIT I have not seen...


Trying to get it so I can use topaz for max MF, but yeah I'll be stuck with 18% life gem at this point.
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You do, unassisted.

Shandlar is buffed by his enchantress putting him at 82% IAS which is exactly what he needs to break 3.01aps.


Enchantress is + 0.03 to weapon aps, not +3% IAS from gear.

So its 1.68 * 1.79 = 3.0072

not 1.65 * 1.82 = 3.003

Just fyi lol.

11/15/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Boozor
I can tell the andy's is just your sub in for a nice Mempo for now. Only thing I can think of is that the Mempo will probably out HP your andy's right now, giving you a small boost. Otherwise going to be hard to stack it anywhere else. Maybe your glove, but a glove with your stats + VIT I have not seen...


Trying to get it so I can use topaz for max MF, but yeah I'll be stuck with 18% life gem at this point.


Owned myself X_X"

ty for clarification, either way you hit :P

I'm sure you can get away without your AME gem in your helm for now.
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And to stay on topic :)

------------------

@OP

I mentioned on Aimless' liquifey thread that I tried it without prism or astral presence @ 3.0aps and 61CC and 18APOC

The extra procs from the additional seconds when liquifey lands is nice and I had no trouble slamming them down on mobs at all. This was an issue with Molten Impact, hence I was running with at least prism to make it work.

Otherwise there was a noticable loss of DPS from using liquifey compared to MI.

I'd consider MI for fights that can be ended quickly, while liquifey for more sustained fights. ie. higher MP levels would be my suggestion.
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As for proc scalar I dont get anywhere near your numbers either though, I have liquify being much better than you do in this department.

Against single targets 50% crit...

Molten impact = 0.125 * 7 * 1 = 0.875
Liquify = 0.10625 * 7 * 1 + ( 0.10625 * 0.50 * 10 * 1 ) = 1.275

Liquify wins by a decent amount (46%)

Against two targets 50% crit...

Molten impact = 0.125 * 7 * 2 = 1.750
Liquify = 0.10625 * 7 * 2 + ( 0.10625 * 0.75 * 10 * 2 ) = 3.08125

Liquify wins by alot (76%)

Against three targets 50% crit...

Molten impact = 0.125 * 7 * 3 = 2.625
Liquify = 0.10625 * 7 * 3 + ( 0.10625 * 0.875 * 10 * 3 ) = 5.02

Liquify wins by a mile (91.25%)

So if I read this correctly, you still asume meteor ticks twice per second?

Could you elaborate on that? All testing I ever did points to once per second. I even tested it again after you mentioned it the other day.
Am I missing something?
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As for proc scalar I dont get anywhere near your numbers either though, I have liquify being much better than you do in this department.

Against single targets 50% crit...

Molten impact = 0.125 * 7 * 1 = 0.875
Liquify = 0.10625 * 7 * 1 + ( 0.10625 * 0.50 * 10 * 1 ) = 1.275

Liquify wins by a decent amount (46%)

Against two targets 50% crit...

Molten impact = 0.125 * 7 * 2 = 1.750
Liquify = 0.10625 * 7 * 2 + ( 0.10625 * 0.75 * 10 * 2 ) = 3.08125

Liquify wins by alot (76%)

Against three targets 50% crit...

Molten impact = 0.125 * 7 * 3 = 2.625
Liquify = 0.10625 * 7 * 3 + ( 0.10625 * 0.875 * 10 * 3 ) = 5.02

Liquify wins by a mile (91.25%)

So if I read this correctly, you still asume meteor ticks twice per second?

Could you elaborate on that? All testing I ever did points to once per second. I even tested it again after you mentioned it the other day.
Am I missing something?

Dude, everything in the entire game ticks twice per second. That's why RoF does half damage, Life per second displays half your number as healing, etc etc.
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11/15/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Shaggy
Dude, everything in the entire game ticks twice per second. That's why RoF does half damage, Life per second displays half your number as healing, etc etc.

Umh... No.
RoF ticks at roughly twice your attack speed.
Healing display for lifereg is twice per second, for other healing (LoH) not always. And that doesn't say anything about the actual ticks, just the cumulated green numbers popping up.
So actually, off the top of my head I can't think of anything ticking twice per second.
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11/15/2012 02:46 PMPosted by apo
Dude, everything in the entire game ticks twice per second. That's why RoF does half damage, Life per second displays half your number as healing, etc etc.

Umh... No.
RoF ticks at roughly twice your attack speed.
Healing display for lifereg is twice per second, for other healing (LoH) not always. And that doesn't say anything about the actual ticks, just the cumulated green numbers popping up.
So actually, off the top of my head I can't think of anything ticking twice per second.


All right, keep thinking that, but you are wrong.

Archon beam, RoF. Venom Hydra pools, Meteor DoT, blizzard, all constant ticks regardless of attack speed. All 2 per second. DAMAGE scales with attack speed, but not actual ticks.
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All right, keep thinking that, but you are wrong.

Archon beam, RoF. Venom Hydra pools, Meteor DoT, blizzard, all constant ticks regardless of attack speed. All 2 per second. DAMAGE scales with attack speed, but not actual ticks.

If you can prove that, you just invalidated all attack speed related research ever.
Please go read https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641

[edit]The topic above is just one example. As far as I know: Archon beam ticks at around three times your attack speed, Hydra doesn't proc anything so I don't care, Blizzard ticks 4 times per second.
Edited by apo#2677 on 11/15/2012 3:04 PM PST
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All right, keep thinking that, but you are wrong.

Archon beam, RoF. Venom Hydra pools, Meteor DoT, blizzard, all constant ticks regardless of attack speed. All 2 per second. DAMAGE scales with attack speed, but not actual ticks.

If you can prove that, you just invalidated all attack speed related research ever.
Please go read https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641

[edit]The topic above is just one example. As far as I know: Archon beam ticks at around three times your attack speed, Hydra doesn't proc anything so I don't care, Blizzard ticks 4 times per second.


Notice Wicked Wind... not on my list.
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Shaggy do you have a video made up? Your build looks pretty cool man. I loved showers 1.0.4. I can't belive u get it working really well though.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/15/2012 3:27 PM PST
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I'm tempted to try a showers build in MP 10.. 5 stack NV then ignore all elites after that and hunt mass white packs.
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390 * 3 targets + (30 * 3seconds * 3 targets) = 1440% * 6 meteors = 8640% total % weapon damage

Liquify at 50% crit...

260 * 3 targets + ( 20 * 3seconds * 3 targets ) + ( 0.875 * 20 * 5seconds * 3 targets ) = 1222.5% * 6 meteors = 7335% total % weapon damage


First before I correct you, you were correct about an extra 3 in my original math so I'll edit that post and leave this.

All dots use the same formula that wicked wind does, I did some exhuastive testing today looking at each rune for blizzard, energy twister, and meteor. The conclusion I came to is this Apoc recovery for damage over time spells is directly affected by 3 things. While I dont include blizzard skill in the lower summations for usuable cm centered skills, just note that its far worse than anything else and its damage doesn't stack. Truely a horrible skill for a cm wizard

#1 Amount of apoc and the proc rate of the skill involved.<--- this was known and most of the proc rates for the spells are known too.
#2 Critical hit chance directly affects Apoc recovery (obviously if you don't score a critical hit you wont get recovery.
#3 Amount of Aps from follower, gear, and skill use rate (some skills have longer cast animations, but none of them are dot specific.

To be even more specific I tested the proc rate of shocking aspect with each dot rune and found that irregardless of crit rate (51%) what directly affected my procs was aps which to confrim has two set varible's 1.78 aps and 2.42 aps. The proc's for SA with Wicked Wind proc's exactly the same as a meteor spell given same aps and crit rate for each.

So to correct shandler's math
Its a 8 second dot your decreasing the dot time scale twice by having both its crit chance multiple (0.875) and its shortened dot version. Actual weapon skill damage per attack turn for liquefy in your version is. and lets be serious about it 1 single target for each spell

Damage @ 50% crit
Molten
390+ (30 *3) = 480% weapon damage as fire per attack turn against a single target
Liquefy
260 + ((20 * 3) *0.5) + ((20 * 8) *0.5) 370% total weapon damage as fire per attack turn against a single target
4 hit meteor shower
(104) * 4) + (20 * 3) *4) = 656% total weapon damage as fire per attack turn with 4 hits from meteor shower
Wicked wind
42 * 6 = 252% weapon damage as arcane per attack turn against a single target

Proc scalar @ 50% cc
Molten
(0.125 + ((0.125 *2) *3)) x 50% = .4375 total proc scalar per attack turn against a single target
Liquefy
(0.10625 + (((0.1625 *2) *0.5) *3)+ (0.10625 * 2) *0.5) *8)) x 50% = .6375 total proc scalar per attack turn per single target
4 hit meteor shower
((0.05) * 4 ) + ((0.05 *2) *4) *3)) x 50% = .7 total proc scalar per attack turn per single target with 4 hits from meteor shower
Wicked wind
((0.125) *2) *6)) x 50% = .75 total proc scalar per attack turn per single target.

//discuss
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 11/15/2012 4:32 PM PST
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Nice info Harrowing. Heavy reading had to go over it a few times.

Another question: if using Meteor and due to AP restrictions to Mass spamming them, would a lower Attack Speed(2.5) with high CD(350) beat a high Attack speed(3.0) with low CD(200) assuming the same paper dps and weapon damage.

I'm thinking Impact here as they hit so hard and a high CD on a Meteor can add up to alot. Just waiting on my amulet(looking) to gain another 80-100CD to put me at 400-420CD before i test it properly in game.
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Nice info Harrowing. Heavy reading had to go over it a few times.

Another question: if using Meteor and due to AP restrictions to Mass spamming them, would a lower Attack Speed(2.5) with high CD(350) beat a high Attack speed(3.0) with low CD(200) assuming the same paper dps and weapon damage.

I'm thinking Impact here as they hit so hard and a high CD on a Meteor can add up to alot. Just waiting on my amulet(looking) to gain another 80-100CD to put me at 400-420CD before i test it properly in game.


its an Either or, if your constantly out of Ap your better off switching to SNS because ap recovery is best with ET//WW. basically when you only use 1 skills to create proc's being starved of ap means losing an attack.

For me with (-7)+(-5) for meteor I find that approximate downtime (out of ap) is at around 40% with molten, 15%~20% with Liquefy, 0%~50% with meteor shower, and 0%~10% with ET//WW.<--- to quantifiy this data I count the number of times I can stack sustain a single spell against the highest level of mp of Ghom that I can do (mp 7). Also ignore meteor shower if your truley want apples to apples comparision Ghom has a large hitbox and meteor shower always hits +5

My Max molten chain is 12 @ 1.78 aps
My max Molten chain is 16 @ 2.42 (it also breaks more often because of lucky nature of high aps and crit

My max Liquefy chain is 27 @ 1.78 aps
My max liquefy chain is at 54 @ 2.42 aps (the chain is almost never broken if the first and second initial cast crit, also the chain would be higher, but at this point ghom dies on me. In other words I suspect an infinite chain)

My max meteor shower chain is 22 @ 1.78 aps
My max meteor shower chain is 42 @ 2.42 aps (Again another would be infinite chain, but ghom always dies between the 39th and 48th cast, thus ending the chain)

My max Wicked wind chain is 117 @ 1.78 aps ( ghom dies at this point and always between the 104th, to the 117th cast)
My max Wicked wind chain is 78 @ 2.42 aps( again another infinite chain ghom dies on me)

Some quick notes. Aps, crit, and meteor reduction are all needed for single target spam.

Basically you have constrained gear choices if you want to run with a meteor spec. You could use ww to fuel meteors as Aimless does,<--- It still increases your dps, and still doesn't carry the need for having a massive gear switch with meteor reduction, high cc, high aps from wanting//needing to use a meteor centered spec.

I frap'ed all my sessions including the elite kills on my way to ghom. So you guys may think meteor shower is bis spell. Its not It sucks against single small targets (never more than 3 hits), in hard fights against Arcane//other dot its a struggle to use just it as your lone cm proc.
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Ahh for my question I should have stated, I'm SNS-Impact I do 3-5sec bursts of WW the Meteor rotating keeps my AP pouring in. Hence why I use Impact. Not Ap starved and since I'm only doing 3-5sec bursts I want the hardest hitting damage.

Agree on Shower personally hate it except for whites.. sux when you've killed everything and only have a gold elite left alone. My impact rotation works though.

Edit: I think this is where alot of arguing/confusion/discussing is occurring. We are all not running the same Meteor builds. I went SNS-Meteor for max dps potential(my opinion) with 45% increase in damage from skills/passives.
Edited by Aphraell#1269 on 11/15/2012 5:01 PM PST
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first of all, all yall are crazy with the math in here, but thanks! after reading it all i've decided that Molten is the way to go for me. also, i'm gonna swap out blood mage for EB for the extra dmg and swap Prism for Shards for a bit more effective meleestyle mage.
on another note...

I keep myself swirled in ice armour so cold blooded is always effective but ive gotten really tired of needing to press my 3 key every 3 seconds to keep this up, plus it gets difficult in long battles. Can anyone reccommend an en easy (and preferably free) macro agent i can use that will automatically press the 3 key every 3 seconds?

Im using a MacBookPro and having trouble finding something simple enough to do just this...seems like every macro i find is going to make my coffee and fold my laundry and cost me $25...id rather spend the $25 in the RMAH =P jk...but really.

thanks again for all the quantitative info on this thread guys, cuz i love meteors. just wishing the delay was faster so i could kill a freakn goblin for once :(
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Well you also need to look at the group that the meteor is falling on.

Single targets - Molten
Multiple targets - Liquify

I personally prefer Molten.....but this is probably, subconciously, because I watched Aphrael's Ponyland Video.....yes, I'm full of bias :>

From time to time, I use shower....because aethetically, it looks the coolest.
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