Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Add&Multi Buffs *Updated*

Updated findings:

Additive buffs:
- Bone Chill
- Conflag
- Time warp
- Glass cannon
- Spark flint
- Force weapon
- Arcane Dynamo

Multiplicative buffs:
- Cold Blooded
- Improved Archon
- +%Dmg to elites eg SoJ

eg Glass cannon + fw + sparkflint + Cold blood + Improved +SoJ =
(1.15+0.15+0.12)*1.2*1.25*1.3


Hi all, these tests were carried out with a low dmg weapon and +min dmg rings to guarantee min=max dmg.

1. Arcane Dynamo

The 75% additional damage is ADDITIVE to your other buffs. Meaning If you have Glass Cannon on, the attack will do 1.15+0.75 = 180%. Rather than 1.17*1.75=201%
This is most significant when you have lots of dmg buffs (GC+FW+Spark)+42% dmg
Dynamo will boost this to 1.42+0.75=217% -> An effective boost of 53% dmg rather than the misleading 75%
Arcane dynamo also doesnt not proc when you pop Arcane destruction on Archon.

2. Archon
Arcane destruction does 1600% WEAPON dmg. Not sheet DPS. Assuming 2 APS, thats only 800% sheet dps on blast.
Improved Archon's +25% is Multiplicative. 1.25x 300% x sheet dps.

3. Cold blooded
Also multiplicative. 1.2x sheet dps x spell

Conclusion:
For sustained dps (eg ubers)
Improved archon over 15 sec is 15sec beam+2arcane blasts [300*15+ 115*2]*1.25 = 5912.5% Dmg
Arcane destruction archon over 15 sec is 1600% weapon+15sec beam+2arcane blast
(1600/aps+300*15+115)
@2 APS = 5530% dmg
@1.354 APS = 5912% Dmg

TL;DR:
- Improved Archon > Arcane destruction if you are > 1.354 APS
- Dynamo is additive to "Damage increased by Skills" like GC or FW
- Improved Archon and Cold Blooded are multiplicative to sheet DPS
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 8:10 PM PST
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Nice stuff

Seems to be alot of additive stuff in this game...can be a bit misleading..

I'm looking at you...prismatic armor and archon defense buffs.
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I get different results for Arcane dynamo. It is multiplicative in my tests.
Testing with meteor/molten, additive would be a 465% weapon damage. My numbers are 683% weapon damage, so 390*1.75.
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A note on your AD vs. IA comparison: two of the ubers fights have adds. You can actually get a few extra seconds on archon form, further boosting your argument in favor of Improved Archon.
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What spells are you two using to test dynamo?

Might it work differently for channeled vs projectile tests?
Edited by BDF#1838 on 12/5/2012 5:48 AM PST
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I tested Arcane Dynamo with meteor...
it seemed multiplicative for me too.
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Should be a clearer on AD: Its multiplicative with your spell DPS, additive with your buffs to achieve the final multiplier.

eg: Arcane orb obliterate 228%.

You have glass cannon active.

Dynamo will give you 228*(1.15+0.75) = 410.4% rather than 228*1.15*1.75=458.85%
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 8:12 AM PST
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Well, I have 2 separate screens here from 2 different spells... but let's do the math with them.

the first one: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4404564/Screenshot021.jpg
is a meteor (molten impact) with Glass Cannon, Familiar, Magic Weapon, Time Warp and Arcane Dynamo

crit for 2187165 damage in a 390% damage spell.

second one: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4404564/Screenshot022.jpg
is an arcane destruction, with Glass Cannon, Familiar, Time Warp and Magic Weapon

crit for 6149883 damage in a 1600% damage spell.

Well, we have 42% of additive bonuses in both cases, and then over it arcane dynamo and Time Warp.
I think both are multiplicatives.
so, doing the math considering this...

without arcane dynamo, meteor would deal 2187165/1,75 = 1249808 damage.
then 1249808/390 * 1600 = 5127419

If arcane dynamo is additive, then we discount it from meteor damage (along with everything else to simplification reasons)
meteor would deal 2187165/2,17 = 1007910
removing additive bonuses from arcane destruction... 6149883/1,42 = 4330903

finally: 1007910/390*1600 = 4135015

aaaand I just prove myself wrong... lol.

You were right from the start. Arcane Dynamo is really additive.
and the hypotesis of Time Warp being multiplicative is most likely accurate.
Edited by seilaoque#1726 on 12/5/2012 9:46 AM PST
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Yeah, bonus are additive when in the same "category".

GC, MW, familiar, Arcane dynamo are in the "increases damage by %" category.
Time warp seems to be in the "enemies take % more damage" category.
Edited by krali#2833 on 12/5/2012 9:05 AM PST
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Yeah, bonus are additive when in the same "category".

GC, MW, familiar, Arcane dynamo are in the "increases damage by %" category.
Time warp seems to be in the "enemies take % more damage" category.


Wrong Arcane dynamo is separate skill % damage multiplier for all non-sig spells. but your right about GC, MW, Familiar, also add in other class skill % boosters such as slamdance.

E.g. you cast a non 5 stack Molten impact with gc, MW, and sparkflint active. This would result in molten being (3.9) * (1 + (.15, .10, .12) = 534.3% skill damage. With arcane dynamo 5 stacks its now (3.9) * (1+(.15, .10, .12) * (1+( .75) = 935.025% skill damage. You can view this if your record your sessions and go back and look at your max crit damage totals. They are much much higher than a straight additive bonus and the numbers indicate that AD is multiplicative. There is a big difference between 826.8% and 935.025% skill damage work your weapon dps, intelligence, crit damage totals and you would see the same results as everyone else.

However unlike the plain +damage multipliers that are in teh game like MW, The game treats each multiplier for enemy taking extra damage separately, so yes in a sense those skills. Cold blooded, Conflagration, Overawe, Marked for death, Bone chill, Time warp, etc. Do work that way.
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 12/5/2012 9:51 AM PST
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[quote]With arcane dynamo 5 stacks its now (3.9) * (1+(.15, .10, .12) * (1+( .75) = 935.025% skill damage.


You mean (3.9) * (1+(.15, .10, .12, .75) = 826~% DMG
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 10:05 AM PST
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What spells are you two using to test dynamo?

Might it work differently for channeled vs projectile tests?


I'd like to know this also. The old topic of AD for Archon beam comes to mind now, where people said it works for the first blast of the beam and continues working for as long as you keep channeling, but once you stop it reverts to normal. I'd test it myself but I haven't had any time to play lately.
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What spells are you two using to test dynamo?

Might it work differently for channeled vs projectile tests?


I'd like to know this also. The old topic of AD for Archon beam comes to mind now, where people said it works for the first blast of the beam and continues working for as long as you keep channeling, but once you stop it reverts to normal. I'd test it myself but I haven't had any time to play lately.


yep thats correct

tested AD with archon, (improved, exploson, pure power), and arcane orb
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You mean (3.9) * (1+(.15, .10, .12, .75) = 826~% DMG


That would mean the ad bonus is Additive. I was post an example of when ad isn't used at all as a base. Hence the wording and the e.g. explaining the wording.

E.g. you cast a non 5 stack Molten impact with gc, MW, and sparkflint active. This would result in molten being (3.9) * (1 + (.15, .10, .12) = 534.3% skill damage.


What is really happening is

12/05/2012 09:48 AMPosted by Harrowing
With arcane dynamo 5 stacks its now (3.9) * (1+(.15, .10, .12) * (1+( .75) = 935.025% skill damage.


It's easily tested, calc your highest average crit damage pre-skill bonuses, then start watching your highest crit values with Molten impact and switch between using and not using AD. You will see that in all instances AD is a separate skill % multiplier. You will find that Molten impact when used in conjunction with AD easily exceeds your expected 826% multiplier which means its Bonus must be Multiplicative
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 12/5/2012 11:11 AM PST
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tested it again with molten impact:

Again, normalized dmg so min=max dmg

with all buffs +42% dmg

Normal molten impact hit for 1894
AD molten impact hit for 2895
which hits for 52.85% harder, meaning it has to be additive to the other dmg buffs

If normal is 3.9*(1+0.15+0.15+0.12) = 553.8%
Additive Molten is 3.9*(1+0.15+0.15+0.12+0.75) = 846.3%

See screenshots here:
http://i.imgur.com/I7Z4K.jpg
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 11:39 AM PST
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I'd like to know this also. The old topic of AD for Archon beam comes to mind now, where people said it works for the first blast of the beam and continues working for as long as you keep channeling, but once you stop it reverts to normal. I'd test it myself but I haven't had any time to play lately.


yep thats correct

tested AD with archon, (improved, exploson, pure power), and arcane orb


Sorry, when I said AD I meant dynamo, not the archon rune. I was talking about the interaction of arcane dynamo with the archon beam.
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whoops AD for me = Arcane dynamo lol

to clarify: yes dynamo affects beam's first cast. If you stop and cast again, dynamo is no longer in effect
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tested it again with molten impact:

Again, normalized dmg so min=max dmg

with all buffs +42% dmg

Normal molten impact hit for 1894
AD molten impact hit for 2895
which hits for 52.85% harder, meaning it has to be additive to the other dmg buffs

If normal is 3.9*(1+0.15+0.15+0.12) = 553.8%
Additive Molten is 3.9*(1+0.15+0.15+0.12+0.75) = 846.3%

See screenshots here:
http://i.imgur.com/I7Z4K.jpg


Your counting the Dot portion of the meteor tick'ed damage which is also uses breakpoints like ET has, this damage is dependent on IAS gear. Count the initial hit and only include maximum damage because your weapon damage has a huge variance in actual raw output of damage . This separates out the possibility of IAS affecting your displayed damage as well as having a low damage roll just compare the top numbers possible.

Also really you shouldn't be using meteor anyways because the damage from the first tick of the dot portion is also included in the display of the initial hit. Further skewing your results. It may take an hour or so to fully test so you know the difference between your true maximum crit damage rolls with and without AD active as a 5 stack buff.
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 12/5/2012 12:55 PM PST
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Your counting the Dot portion of the meteor tick'ed damage which is also uses breakpoints like ET has, this damage is dependent on IAS gear. Count the initial hit and only include maximum damage because your weapon damage has a huge variance in actual raw output of damage . This separates out the possibility of IAS affecting your displayed damage as well as having a low damage roll just compare the top numbers possible.

Also really you shouldn't be using meteor anyways because the damage from the first tick of the dot portion is also included in the display of the initial hit. Further skewing your results. It may take an hour or so to fully test so you know the difference between your true maximum crit damage rolls with and without AD active as a 5 stack buff.


Meteor does not use breakpoints like twister. The number of tics is completely independent of attack speed.

I think you just don't understand how he's testing it. Comparing crits with high dps gear is NOT the method that should be used because of the huge varience in damage displayed. What the OP is doing is using low dps gear that will always do the same damage on non-crits, every time. That makes it as easy to compare as casting the spell twice, assuming neither crits.

You might have a valid point about the meteor blast+tic making the results more complicated. However, the results for Arcane Orb have no such complications so the result should hold for meteor. If anything the meteor results seem to indicate the dot portion of meteor is increased by the AD proc. If that's the case, it doesn't matter if the first tic is included or not because 53% more damage total means additive and it would be 75% more damage if multiplicative.
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^Yup those 2 scrnshots are the initial meteor impact.

Same results with arcane orb where there is no initial impact tick dmg
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 2:32 PM PST
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