Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Add&Multi Buffs *Updated*

12/05/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Loroese
Meteor does not use breakpoints like twister. The number of tics is completely independent of attack speed


Biggest lie shandler and apo have ever perpetuated in these forums Period. Apoc returns are absolutely greater @ 2.5002 aps than vs 1.78 aps. At higher aps expect higher total returns per second. 1 cast of emptied out Ap and 1 crit liquefy returns much MUCH more ap total over 8 seconds @ 2.5002than vs 1.78. This is JUST LIKE all the Runes of WW, all the runes of blizzard, all the channel runes for wizard, rltw break points.

All dot's pull the same game code as posted in the original ww breakpoints thread. They just want everyone to think that it doesn't to avoid meteor getting nerfed further, because technically in end-game if you can pull it off its a huge dps boost over standard sns. I.e. replacing wt with a meteor rune for proc's

12/05/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Loroese
I think you just don't understand how he's testing it. Comparing crits with high dps gear is NOT the method that should be used because of the huge varience in damage displayed.


You still don't understand. There is an inherrant variance in damage output per each time a skill is activated. By testing it my way, Biggest crit number comparisons, you take out that randomness of weapon damage You only take a direct sample comparison and can run the easy reduction math. You could do the same exact thing on the opposite end and only take the lowest possible numbers displayed, but due to the nature of RNG and spread damage variance you would need a +10,000 sample size to pin down the exact mechanics of what ad is doing with skills by doing it your way, Its statistics not simple arithimetic. I understand that getting the right results would be tedious and frustrating, but plainly and very humbly your not comparing apples to apples.
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 12/5/2012 2:45 PM PST
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Posts: 5,435
dynamo works with arcane destruction? sweet
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[quote]
You still don't understand. There is an inherrant variance in damage output per each time a skill is activated. By testing it my way, Biggest crit number comparisons, you take out that randomness of weapon damage You only take a direct sample comparison and can run the easy reduction math. You could do the same exact thing on the opposite end and only take the lowest possible numbers displayed, but due to the nature of RNG and spread damage variance you would need a +10,000 sample size to pin down the exact mechanics of what ad is doing with skills by doing it your way, Its statistics not simple arithimetic. I understand that getting the right results would be tedious and frustrating, but plainly and very humbly your not comparing apples to apples.


wut?

I'm using a 13-24 dmg wand
with +11min dmg

Giving me 24-24 dmg.

there is no need to do repetitive testing because there is NO variance.

A spell either crits or it doesnt. If it doesnt it does the same dmg over and over again. If it crits it shows a big yellow number and i ignore it.
With archon it was difficult as the beam builds in the crit dmg so I had dump all my cc and cd gear and try to ignore the "bigger" white numbers.

But with something like arcane orb, and magic missile, the testing is easy.

12/05/2012 02:44 PMPosted by pichapiegal
dynamo works with arcane destruction? sweet


And no, unfortunately it doesnt ( you do keep the 5 stack dynamo thru the explosion)
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 2:51 PM PST
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12/05/2012 02:42 PMPosted by Harrowing
Meteor does not use breakpoints like twister. The number of tics is completely independent of attack speed


Biggest lie shandler and apo have ever perpetuated in these forums Period. Apoc returns are absolutely greater @ 2.5002 aps than vs 1.78 aps. At higher aps expect higher total returns per second. 1 cast of emptied out Ap and 1 crit liquefy returns much MUCH more ap total over 8 seconds @ 2.5002than vs 1.78. This is JUST LIKE all the Runes of WW, all the runes of blizzard, all the channel runes for wizard, rltw break points.

All dot's pull the same game code as posted in the original ww breakpoints thread. They just want everyone to think that it doesn't to avoid meteor getting nerfed further, because technically in end-game if you can pull it off its a huge dps boost over standard sns. I.e. replacing wt with a meteor rune for proc's

I think you just don't understand how he's testing it. Comparing crits with high dps gear is NOT the method that should be used because of the huge varience in damage displayed.


You still don't understand. There is an inherrant variance in damage output per each time a skill is activated. By testing it my way, Biggest crit number comparisons, you take out that randomness of weapon damage You only take a direct sample comparison and can run the easy reduction math. You could do the same exact thing on the opposite end and only take the lowest possible numbers displayed, but due to the nature of RNG and spread damage variance you would need a +10,000 sample size to pin down the exact mechanics of what ad is doing with skills by doing it your way, Its statistics not simple arithimetic. I understand that getting the right results would be tedious and frustrating, but plainly and very humbly your not comparing apples to apples.


First, it's not a lie, and it's super easy to test the meteor tics per cast. Equip 1 APS weapon with no IAS and some LoH and note LoH return. Then equip a fast 1h with a bunch of IAS, repeat. The LoH gains will be the same for both cases. I have tested it myself and if there's no difference between 1 APS and 2 APS then there's no difference period. If you think otherwise, feel free to show some evidence that prooves otherwise, as there are multiple sources saying you're wrong, and those of us saying we're right are established theorycrafters.

Second, there is only a varience in damage done if your max damage > min damage. With the method used by the OP, and the same method I use, you equip a low level weapon, say Staff of Herding that does 3-4 damage, with some +min damage ring. Because your min > max damage, it makes your max = min so your weapon ALWAYS does the same damage, every hit. Every crit does the same damage (though obviously crits do more damage than normal hits). This means there is no varience at all and this is also extremely easy to test.

I have done similar test that the OP performed so I can vouch for the methodology and I'm inclined to believe the results. If you continue to doubt the results, show some proof if you expect anyone to believe your claims.
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Posted by pichapiegal
dynamo works with arcane destruction? sweet

And no, unfortunately it doesnt ( you do keep the 5 stack dynamo thru the explosion)


dang :(
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hmm so does non-character base damage buff like time warp/bone chill/overawe works the same way as character base buff?

such as the bonus damage only count pre-buff damage not the post buff damage?
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hmm so does non-character base damage buff like time warp/bone chill/overawe works the same way as character base buff?

such as the bonus damage only count pre-buff damage not the post buff damage?


Did a few more tests with interesting results:

Additive buffs:
- Bone Chill
- Conflag
- Time warp
- Glass cannon
- Spark flint
- Force weapon
- Arcane Dynamo

Multiplicative buffs:
- Cold Blooded
- Improved archon
- +Dmg to elite eg SoJ
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 8:50 PM PST
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hmm so does non-character base damage buff like time warp/bone chill/overawe works the same way as character base buff?

such as the bonus damage only count pre-buff damage not the post buff damage?


Did a few more tests with interesting results:

Additive buffs:
- Bone Chill
- Conflag
- Time warp
- Glass cannon
- Spark flint
- Force weapon
- Arcane Dynamo

Multiplicative buffs:
- Cold Blooded


That's suprising. I expected most of those to be multiplicative. Can you test +damage vs elites also? Last I heard it was multiplicative. Same for SoJ type affixes.
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That's suprising. I expected most of those to be multiplicative. Can you test +damage vs elites also? Last I heard it was multiplicative. Same for SoJ type affixes.


SoJ +dmg to elites is multiplicative too

Edit: Updated orig post.
Edited by skyQuake#1457 on 12/5/2012 8:47 PM PST
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That's suprising. I expected most of those to be multiplicative. Can you test +damage vs elites also? Last I heard it was multiplicative. Same for SoJ type affixes.


SoJ is multiplicative too

Edit: Updated orig post.


Is that just the bonus damage vs elites that's multiplicative, or is it also the "Increases Spectral Blades by x%" and the such that is multiplicative? That's what I meant by the SoJ type affixes. Again me being confusing since SoJ has bonus vs elites.
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Ohh didnt even think of that; tested only +dmg to elites.
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Two surprising results here for sure.

Bone chill and Conflagration.

Those arn't buffs to your character, they are debuffs to the mob.

There's no way they would be 'additive' to your own skill damage spells. It can't work that way.

Are they additive to each other and then multiplied to you.

We've known that all your own +% boosting things were additive. Cold blooded + sparkflint + force weapon + glass cannon = 162% damage not 177.7% damage.

But if I'm using...

Sparkflint
Force Weapon
Glass Cannon
Conflagration
Time Warp
Bone CHill

Your saying it would calculate out as...

12% + 15% + 15% + 10% + 20% + 15%= 187% Damage

To me that's an impossible option cause they arnt all character buffs. It would have to be one of two options...

(12% + 15% + 15%) * (10% + 20% + 15%) = 205.9% Damage

or

(12% + 15% + 15%) * 10% * 20% * 15% = 215.556% Damage

I would be willing to accept that mob debuffs don't multiply and instead are additive, but I cannot fathom how 'Monster is debuffed to take XX% more damage' would be added to 'Your character deals XX% more damage'. They are completely separate things.

Edit: Removed Cold blooded for clarity sake
Edited by Shandlar#1961 on 12/5/2012 8:54 PM PST
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Indeed thats what I thought. The "invis" buffs and debuffs should be multiplicative, but they are not. Time warp was the biggest surprise there.
Will post some screenshots later.
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magic missile with no buffs:

565 dmg

magic missile with: Bone Chill + Time warp + FW + Spark (1.15+0.2+0.15+0.12 = 1.62)

915 dmg

565*1.62 = 915.3

Time warp and Bone Chill both have tooltips saying Enemies take x% more dmg but the tooltips in this game are a load of sh!t.

http://imgur.com/Pu3KX
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Biggest lie shandler and apo have ever perpetuated in these forums Period. Apoc returns are absolutely greater @ 2.5002 aps than vs 1.78 aps. At higher aps expect higher total returns per second. 1 cast of emptied out Ap and 1 crit liquefy returns much MUCH more ap total over 8 seconds @ 2.5002than vs 1.78. This is JUST LIKE all the Runes of WW, all the runes of blizzard, all the channel runes for wizard, rltw break points.

All dot's pull the same game code as posted in the original ww breakpoints thread. They just want everyone to think that it doesn't to avoid meteor getting nerfed further, because technically in end-game if you can pull it off its a huge dps boost over standard sns. I.e. replacing wt with a meteor rune for proc's

You gotta be kidding me.
You are calling me a liar? Implying that I knowingly spread false information to prevent a nerf to a skill I never used on a class I don't use anymore? Seriously?
While at the same time you are the one posting theories without any supporting evidence or sound methodology and reproducable test setup?
Several independant tests came to the conclusion that Meteor ticks are not affected by attack speed. The test setup is very easy and test results can be reproduced by a trained monkey.
So please, present some evidence for your theories or shut the hell up right now.
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tagging
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Would it be fair to assume +% to spectral blades as being additive?
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Any chance we can get someone to test the +% damge to skills, like spectral blades suggestion in the post above, or MM damage, etc., so we can have it included in the OP? I think that's about the only thing missing from the list.
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