Diablo® III

Criticising Diablo 3



While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.
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First off, I want to thank you for replying to this thread and acknowledging the fact that someone within the organization is at least reading some of the players' suggestions.

However, I think it is time to admit that the dev team's "vision" for D3 character development and customization is flawed. There is no character customization outside of equipment choice, which is extremely limited (including only a handful of socketable items and zero enchantments). Runes do not offer greater customization, as every character within a given class is exactly the same at a given level. People who play RPGs, even ARPGs, want certain weight to be given to any choice they make for their characters. That's what gives a player a certain level of ownership over their toon.

Why not implement any of the character development choices from WoW? At least there, each character must follow a set play style path (tank, dps, healer). If a player decides they want to switch it up, add a respec option. Such a thing would be an amazing gold sink as well. It also adds a replayability factor. Currently, there is no reason to lvl two characters of the same class. No reason at all.
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I think the OP said it best with the whole skill tree / stat allocation issue being outdated..

How exactly is a 12 year old game still surviving and thriving more than it's 8 month old game counterpart?

It speaks for itself.. just how big the stat and skill allocation points are in not only build diversity but continuing re-playability. Under D3's current system on how skills and stat points are forced upon you, does anyone really think D3 will even be remembered 12 years from now? D3 doesn't have much room to grow under it's current restrictive system, and all the necessary tools for a popular sequel were available to them where D2 left off.

If they continue on their current model and neglect to revamp the entire game, what could the game possibly look like 12 years from now?

- 3 more classes that have similar stats as every other class (because of forced stat points), that will probably undergo the nerf hammer a dozen times over because they aren't a barb?
- 50 more skills that will probably be next to useless like many of them are now?
- Maybe 1 or 2 more acts with no random layout and a low density of re-cycled monsters from other acts that are different colors (20 different colors of imps anyone)

Does anyone really think with D3's current model now and the direction it's headed, that it will hold anybody's attention 12 years from now.. like D2 is still doing?

As much as I want to love D3 and would like it to be a success.. sorry Devs, your vision of D3 isn't working. It's time to admit it, and change it. The numbers speak for themselves.. D3 is barely 8 months old and dying rapidly, while D2 at 12 years old is still going and thriving.
Edited by Deadlysynz#1583 on 1/8/2013 4:48 PM PST
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Community Manager
Posts: 1,449
Paragon Levelling - This is just an extension of your grind, I wouldn't call it an improvement as well, it's just an "illusion" of accomplishment past level 60 which grants nothing but extra "auto-allocated" stats. At first when I saw it being put in I was tempted to re-login and play, but to find out it's just more automated stats even, made it pointless. But after having the thought of just main stat & vit, why doesn't my Paragon levels just tunnel all those stats gained directly into main stat?
It is just a weaker form of levelling from 1-60, just without skills being unlocked. sigh...


The Paragon system was designed as a way to help address Magic Find/gear-swapping and the Magic Find stat in general along with offering an end-game character progression grind. The Diablo III end-game is fundamentally for people who enjoy making their character feel more powerful, investing time into slaughtering hordes of enemies, and hunting for loot. The Paragon system provides players with a predictable reward they can work towards. But for us, grinding alone is not enough. We like that there are still random item drops, you can change your build if you get bored, and it's all designed to complement a fluid combat system.

01/03/2013 12:13 AMPosted by KradisZ
Infernal Machine - Serves like an event in any MMO it's a scavenger hunt and doesn't seem to thrilling just watching videos and streamers do it. I'm being honest here, it really feels lik an event being held in an MMO, except those FREE MMO's give these kinds of things seasonally and at a higher rate Diablo 3 will ever gain.


In terms of free additional content, we’d love to add more events similar to Infernal Machine to the Diablo universe, but whatever we add needs to fit within the scope of the game and needs to be weighed against other design costs. D3 isn’t an MMO, so it’s not going to receive regular content additions like an MMO (in terms of frequency and reward structures), but we’re definitely keeping our options open for the future, so don’t hesitate to let us know what interests you!

FFXIV:ARR For example the DIRECTOR even said to take WoW as a base test and improve on that and make it into their own style, and to study market trends to see what worked and get player feedback and ENGAGE IN CONVERSATION WITH PLAYERS in a LARGE scale not just a few random select individuals, through FORUMS, SOCIAL MEDIA, BLOGS & FREQUENT POSTS.


Pertaining to engaging in conversations with the players: we aim to do just that, and we’re dedicated to improving on this further. I for one am extremely active on our official social media channels (especially Twitter and Facebook), and have recently started branching out to other communities to try and connect a bit more there as well (including Reddit and DeviantArt). One of the things I think that it’s key to realize, however, is that while part of our job is indeed to be a presence on the forums and communicate with all of you, part of that job also entails stepping away from the forums so that we can gather feedback, communicate with the developers, attend meetings, moderate, draft up social media, write blogs: the whole shebang. The behind-the-scenes portion of our job isn’t easy to see, but hopefully the numerous improvements that have been made over the passing months shows that we’ve been listening and passing along feedback, and we plan to continue doing just that. :)
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I would really be interested in knowing what kind of IT development project management model the dev team uses in it's design and coding phase. That fact that many of the design choices tend to steer away from decisions of greater complexity (i.e. removing features) leads me to believe that it may be of the Agile model, in which each specific dev group must "successfully" complete a set number of tasks in a certain period of time. This system focuses on the quantity of tasks considered to be "completed" instead of the quality. Obviously, the easiest way to do this is to keep the design simple and not add multiple variables that would affect other dev groups.
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01/08/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.


could we please pick a direction and stick with it? sorry to complain but i had to get it out.
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i really need your help guys, and battle.net, blizzard give me my freaking money. i put $30 in my battle.net account 5 days ago, took 3 days to stop being on pending to completed, and now it says i have $30 balence, i go into real money auction house to buy gold says i have $0 in my battle.net balence god damn im so angry
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01/08/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Vaeflare
We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes

yeah because there are so many choices between so many useful runes. I mean, just look at those five runes for Call of the Ancients...oh wait..no one uses that skill. Anyway look at those Berserker runes: You can only use 2 (and in special but not very common cases 3) runes. Either you do 100% more damage or you maintain it for longer. Why should anyone choose the other runes? Knockback? Bro, you use berserk to kill mobs and not to push them away...that thing has a 120sek cooldown (who had that cooldown idea anyway?). Or 60% dodge? Seriously? On a STR loaded char with 30% reduction? In a completly nerfed game?
It's like that for every skill. you can basicly choose between two runes with one beeing the good and the other beeing the niche one. while leveling twinks i didn't even bother to choose any runes besides those I was going to use in Inferno.

01/08/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Vaeflare
this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game


oh you are right. dumbing down the mechanics and making skill choices nearly non-existent fits indeed.

various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


yeah, they still suck.

But now completly without any sarcasm: Please find a way to "fix" this game. The fights are so smooth and feel so good, just everything else really sucks. That starts with the broken (and probably unfixable) itemsystem and ends with the "story" (still mad at you for killing cain with f*cking butterflies).
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imo if we could put our stats where we want them, it would be usless in d3 because all stats n dmg comes from 100% gear based, imo it was a huge mistake bliz, gear shouldnt be 100% what your class is, could of had some crazy builds like in d2 and PoE lolzzz, not just a handfull of builds that work/effective..
Edited by Epic#1853 on 1/8/2013 5:00 PM PST
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You stat allocation clowns need to get over it already. It's not happening and one of the things they did right was getting rid of that archaic skill system.
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You really don't have a choice because some skills/runes clearly own others.
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this scrub must had difficulty with makin a build ^^ hahahaha or didnt play d2
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01/08/2013 04:54 PMPosted by Mendacium
I would really be interested in knowing what kind of IT development project management model the dev team uses in it's design and coding phase. That fact that many of the design choices tend to steer away from decisions of greater complexity (i.e. removing features) leads me to believe that it may be of the Agile model, in which each specific dev group must "successfully" complete a set number of tasks in a certain period of time. This system focuses on the quantity of tasks considered to be "completed" instead of the quality. Obviously, the easiest way to do this is to keep the design simple and not add multiple variables that would affect other dev groups.
Based on their release schedule and intervals between patches i'd say it looks more like waterfall.
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Does upgrades for skills have to be permanent? Why not have more sockets in items that can increase skills? I understand that right now there are items that have bonus to skills on them, but maybe there can be enchantments that can add skill bonuses to items.

Maybe there can be rune extensions for each character. Runes that can drop and be traded in the community.

The player wants some part in the creative process.
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Posts: 4,125
Pertaining to engaging in conversations with the players: we aim to do just that, and we’re dedicated to improving on this further. I for one am extremely active on our official social media channels (especially Twitter and Facebook), and have recently started branching out to other communities to try and connect a bit more there as well (including Reddit and DeviantArt). One of the things I think that it’s key to realize, however, is that while part of our job is indeed to be a presence on the forums and communicate with all of you, part of that job also entails stepping away from the forums so that we can gather feedback, communicate with the developers, attend meetings, moderate, draft up social media, write blogs: the whole shebang. The behind-the-scenes portion of our job isn’t easy to see, but hopefully the numerous improvements that have been made over the passing months shows that we’ve been listening and passing along feedback, and we plan to continue doing just that. :)


I think one part of why there are many disgruntled people with negative view of the developers and/or CM is that, it is difficult to measure the usefulness of the feedback given. We do not have an active Blizzard development team presence on the forum so we have to make do with what can be seen. And because of that, it is difficult to gauge if the feedback given is at all even being considered.

Of course, I am not blaming it on just a lack of communication. It is more to do with the fact that much of the feedback, much of the advice or information gained cannot be simply seen on our end. It is not like we ask for X and when we log on, we can see the direct impact of the feedback. So it gives off a sense that much of what has been stated has been ignored.

I would also press that the rhetoric being used in explaining decisions is not being used well. With comments (that have been repeated many times), one went X because it did not go along with Blizzards view, or Y because they felt a certain way, it sort of has been used so often that it feels dishonest. One example I would give is how CM's mention how our feedback is used, taken seriously, etc. and makes it seem like we are helping. But that has been repeated (almost to the same wording) on enough occasions that is also feels sort of fixed, if not dishonest.

Like I said, it boils down to we are unable to accurately see the fruits of our labor (feedback) being used. I do realize that there are things CM's can and cannot say--for it may come off as false promise, inaccurate, or fail to occur. That I totally understand--but I do believe there needs to be some more transparency going on. Developers are hard at work and I understand, they should not have to take time off to deal with PR and have distractions. But there needs to be more forms of updates, more discussion, more something to where we can feel that we are not being ignored.

I am not expecting for daily discussions or anything of the sort--but when we go weeks on end and not a single word from Blizzard is given, just feels sort of like we have been forgotten. yes, Blizzard staff are hard at work and cannot drop by here often, but something should change. I mean, in WoW--we had GM's which made it feel like Blizzard was looking out for us. And yes, GM's are not so needed in Diablo III (I am not suggesting we need them), but when we report, when we do anything, it just feels artificial as if we are just speaking to machines (or this is the Matrix!!)

But yeah, that is some of why I see issues here and negativity to any inclination of "why" given by CM's.
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If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


The person was talking about how rare items and magic items are trash and how legendary items are almost too good (in some respects far too good).

So yea... This quote seems to be a copy / pasted answer and the topic this quote is supposed to refer to wasn't even looked at.
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70 Tauren Paladin
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Thanks for taking the time to craft such a constructive and well-intentioned thread. We really do appreciate the passion of Diablo III players like yourself, and you have some very fair points and feedback, so /highfive for that!

And how an old game had systems inspired already to lead into multiple diversities and that game is full of skill trees and is immensively popular, so those telling me skill trees & stat points is outdated, tell that to a 12 year old game still surviving and is massively going on updates still. It's only outdated if your skill trees/stats don't actually offer any equality between power & variation.


While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.

You speak of rares or magics and you'll just get laughed at, all everyone talks about is Legendary this that, mempo skorn, manticore blah blah, I haven't played and read enough to know that's all is being mentioned mainly for items and things, which still isn't even fully viable on the new Monster Power...? And one last thing I know Rares are still somewhat useful just as cheap trash gear now until you find your first Legendary and such, but past that you never look back really


If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923457/104_Legendary_Item_Improvements-8_14_2012"]Legendary Item Improvements[/url] as well as the various overall item improvements we made in [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7528695/"]patch 1.0.5[/url].

Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.


Nice post, thanks for that. It'd be greatly appreciated by many if you could elaborate on a few things though. *begs*!

While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III."


In what way is it better for Diablo III as opposed to Diablo II? It worked there, it gave years of replayability to the game, trying new permanent builds, with defined specializations. Why would it work so utterly successfully there, yet not in DIII?

They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization.


How is it "artificial"? You say in your very next line that there are penalties for misplacing points, or not thinking ahead etc. If it were "artificial" complexity, there wouldn't be room for such lack of forethought.

How do they fail to add customization? How is there any more customization in a system where you have no reason not to just click the current FotM runes and go from there? At least it required a time/playtime investment in D2 (y'know, playing the game and such).

They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.


You added respecs to D2, in a limited number. How is it impossible to do the same in D3..? And how is it a bad thing if there are consequences to your mistakes? Unsure what your point is here, dear lady.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves.


Agree, x10000. You're pointing out a strength of the skill tree system here, not a weakness. With the rune system, I felt compelled to try new skills for maybe.. 5 minutes here and there? Then realizing it was inferior in every respect to x other skill, it was replaced and never used again, unless it provided synergy to later runes/skills.

In a skill tree system, you lock yourself into a build. This has a couple of effects. Every playthrough is markedly different to your last. Replayability. You also "have" to use your chosen skills more often, you get used to them, they can grow on you, you can specialize in them to "make" them good for your build over time, you can see the effect as you put more points in them and their supporting skills and +skills from items.

And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best


And what's the bad thing about having people "experiment" with new characters? Do you people actually understand what "replayability" means? Not trying to be insulting here, just wondering. It certainly isn't grinding for weeks/months until you've sold enough inferior items to buy your next 10 strength upgrade.

We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either.


Why do you believe that? Nevermind, no need to answer that one. There's no reason for you to put any points whatsoever into anything except mainstat/vit if you're particularly squishy. Similar to D2. Why wasn't more effort put into making offstats useful? Unsure.
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legendarys are basically stronger than all items becasue they have set stats that can roll, unlike the rares that are completely rng overboarded rofl
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01/08/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Vaeflare
The Diablo III end-game is fundamentally for people who enjoy making their character feel more powerful, investing time into slaughtering hordes of enemies, and hunting for loot.


So three things:

Ego.

Time Waster.

Looking for loot which means... AH/RMAH and not the game (in most cases).

I would've thought that the evolution on the Diablo franchise might have come up with some other end game ideas... since this is Blizzard's idea on endgame it's no wonder I rarely play anymore.
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+1 for Azmodan's Siege Mode. Sounds exciting.
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