Diablo® III

Monks Skill damage buff is overwhelming 1.07(?)

01/14/2013 11:55 PMPosted by samtingwong
allow it to break jailer,
dashing strike can get out of jailer, can go through arcane lazors and and pass through wall of fire, walk on plague and molten. and can also escape waller if there's a gap


Dashing strike is a pain, because unlike vault, you can't just "dash". You actually need to "strike" -- that is, hit another target. Of course, it can be used defensively, but this is not easy. Most monks will prefer to fill the slot with either Serenity or Seven Sided Strike.
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Bliz has said that they like where monks are in damage output, but that there aren't great ways to spend spirit other than to refresh overawe. Current cookie cutter monks fill up their whole bar in order to buff and do do sweeping wind damage, so taking any spirit spender means giving up something (either a damage buff or serenity).

I'm sure that it's all baked at this point, so what I say doesn't matter, but I hope there are better spirit recovery mechanisms. Some of the monk skills are actually not terrible, but they're unusable because you can't recover spirit quickly enough (for instance, by crit proc) to spam the skills.

By the way, it's disingenuous for a player whose main toon is a barb to write a sentence that starts with, "No other class has...". Barbs have the best skills synergy in the game, providing endless resource, extraordinary mobility, dps, and the ability to ignore every single form of crowd control except waller. CM wizzies and SW monks wish they had a set of skills that worked together as well as that. That's not envy -- I've had a 300k+ barb, but hated him, because gameplay was horrendously boring -- it's just a gentle rebuff.

I generally tell people who say "barbs have this or that" to play a barb. In this case, I would suggest, try playing a monk :) There will be things you direly miss from your barb's skillset, I promise you.


I don't miss the skills on my barb when I play my monk. But SW monks are boring. Much less action than a spirit Barb. Please don't cry about not getting enough resource on a monk, try a witch doctor than you will know getting resource is hard.
Barb Immunity is OP, can't say anything about that if it was removed Barb don't get everything else you say.
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Dashing strike is a pain, because unlike vault, you can't just "dash". You actually need to "strike" -- that is, hit another target. Of course, it can be used defensively, but this is not easy. Most monks will prefer to fill the slot with either Serenity or Seven Sided Strike.


Yes, but the spirit cost is cheap (Quicksilver Rune) and there's almost no cooldown. It's all in the setup before you dash in on the mobs. What I usually do is line them up and dash through the other side of the mob. That way, when it gets too crowded, i just dash the other side and use those mobs there as target. You can also use the destructibles in the environment as targets. Coupled with life per spirit spent, you get an extra heal in every dash.
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I'm underwhelmed by the monk changes. They were bandaid fixes with no thought given. After the last major patch there was a big uproar in the Monk community. Every other class was getting a page full of changes..we got like 3 things listed and 2 were nerfs.

The blues posted(after a month or longer of no response at all) that monks needed more to make them inline with other classes then they had time to get to in that patch. They talked about better spirit regen management, they talked about removing knock back from Lashing Kick(but adding it to one rune) they talked about giving teleportation to Fist of Thunder on the primary level and opening up a whole field of new runes monks could use, they talked about the need to have more(or you know.. some) offensive passive abilities.. they talked about alot. None of which I see in the datamined information.

So no.. I wouldnt say I feel monk changes are overwhelming.. I'd say just the opposite.

And while these damage buffs look impressive.. lets not forget we likely have a month of PTR testing to do and I bet most of these numbers get nerfed a little.
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01/14/2013 11:55 PMPosted by samtingwong
allow it to break jailer,

dashing strike can get out of jailer, can go through arcane lazors and and pass through wall of fire, walk on plague and molten. and can also escape waller if there's a gap


as mentioned further, there are caveats on this, you can't use this on the ground.

it should
a) free to use (ie: costs no spirit, no cd, or very minimal)
b) click to ground to move. (ie: mobility tool)
c) breaks jailer. escape tool

maybe a workaround on being abusive is: there is cast cost and a cd (eg: 4 seconds or 8 seconds), but when you cast it you can hold to channel, and there is no channel cost). but once you hit something or is hit by something, the channel breaks. so its free to use in between fights, but not otherwise.
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I don't know much about monks, having only a very low level one currently (11 I think? Maybe 12.)

But with a 60+22 Barb, I do have some thoughts on the matter.
When you mention something like Rend, yes it is a DOT so that damage isn't instant. Something like Ancient Hammer might be better for that.

However, Rend IS an aoe; I can be surrounded by 20 guys and almost every one of them is going to be hit with rend's dot. That is MASSIVE damage. (Even Ancient Hammer has an AOE rune, though it's effect isn't huge.)

Again I don't know much about monk skills, but I hope you're taking that into count when doing your analysis.
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dashing strike can get out of jailer, can go through arcane lazors and and pass through wall of fire, walk on plague and molten. and can also escape waller if there's a gap


as mentioned further, there are caveats on this, you can't use this on the ground.

it should
a) free to use (ie: costs no spirit, no cd, or very minimal)
b) click to ground to move. (ie: mobility tool)
c) breaks jailer. escape tool

maybe a workaround on being abusive is: there is cast cost and a cd (eg: 4 seconds or 8 seconds), but when you cast it you can hold to channel, and there is no channel cost). but once you hit something or is hit by something, the channel breaks. so its free to use in between fights, but not otherwise.


DS don't give you mobility until stroke but you can break jailer any time you like. Hit "air". Sorry to make this comment, I haven't try it myself, but you can active DS without any target. You just only move like 6 yard distance.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 1/15/2013 12:23 AM PST
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Why are they buffing monks?

Because they don't want us to just kick your asses....they want us to MURDER you!!!!!

(talking to every other class than monk)

^_^ v = Victory!!!
Edited by Urizen#1367 on 1/15/2013 12:26 AM PST
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SHUT UP...i bought tons of monk SOJs, this patch is going to make me rich =D
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Holy crap... I was joking when I said "even if they give us double the damage"...

Who cares how much damage WoL does? Its tedious animation coupled with the unbearable monk's resource regen makes it an absolute gimmicky skill.

It may be fun to see a giant bell fall from the sky, but it's completely unusable in combat, just for the fact that during the entire animation you can't do anything - you can't interrupt the attack even if you find yourself in danger...

As I stated before, instead of damage buffs they should have gone the other way around and decrease the spirit costs.

Sure, it may be easier to go Tempest Rush lower MPs now, but this doesn't add anything to build or gameplay diversity.
Edited by Deus#2622 on 1/15/2013 1:07 AM PST
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Have people forgotten HOTA Barb build? It may not be fast but it works like a charm in higher mp levels. You get a 4x multiplier to your damage. Barbs DPS potential is fantastic. Whoever said that they come in last is very mistaken.

The only thing monks need, and this is the only thing imo is for almost armor types to be able to roll -1 to -5 on Lashing Tail Kick / Cyclone Strike / Wave of Light.

As it stands right now, you can only get -5 to LTK on a shield and a 2h. If you want to reduce the cost further, you need to get a stone of jordan, a skull grasp and Mara's Kaleidoscope with the -5 affix to LTK which is super rare and cannot be searched :(

This makes making a non-conventional monk build very hard because for those legendaries to roll -5 to LTK as well as desired affixes like crit/crit damage is very very rare.

On the other hand, we have Hammer of The Ancients Barb. All he needs is high crit chance to make that build work. My barb can have 70% crit chance unbuffed if I wanted him to for cheap compared to how much it would cost to get a similar styled LTK build going. and I'd have to drop mantra of conviction for circular breathing from healing mantra as well as use Chant of Resonance / Guardian's path (for 2h resource regen. 1h wont do cause high attack speed will counteract the spirit regen).

Damage buffs are nice and all but I just want to see more build options by introducing the aforementioned affixes to all armor types.
Edited by vvolfster#1903 on 1/15/2013 1:30 AM PST
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Its just all about killing many mobs fastest possible while being "on the move" and move from spot to spot. For something like Wave of Light to be worth using while farming it needs to literally oneshot all the white mobs on ur screen.

Its just a skill that doesnt fit well with farming efficiency, as with many other skills.

TR monk and WW barb builds are the pefect example of farming synergy.
Sweeping winds is also an example of a skill that has great farming efficiency.
The so-called monk uber abiliy SSS is just a waste of an skill slot when we talk farming efficiency.
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OMG you think barbs are powerful. Yes we survive the best, but we have the worse killing rate. Most attacks are single target that makes killing time very long. All our dps depends on DoT. You see people running with little tornadoes, do you not know monk has the same ability and better attack power?

You kidding?!
Cleave
Bash
Seismic Slam
Hammer
Revenge
Overpower
Furious Charge
Earthquake
Call of Ancients
Weapon Throw'

All multiple target 'cept for Weapon Throw on which you need Ricochet or Dread Bomb.
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What difference does it make how much spirit spenders do, if we still have awful resource generation? The changes are actually pretty meh considering this fact.

If anything, they should have reworked out generators with more balanced proc coefficients in mind. As it stands, NOTHING is worth using over Thunderclap as your "primary" in a standard build. Its pretty awful considering how much they preach diversity.

Even despite the "buffs" they're giving us, the modified spenders STILL won't compare to just holding L/RMB for Thunderclap while Cyclones shoot out everywhere. Sure they might be viable, but theres a pretty large chance they still won't be good enough mathematically to warrant changes to the current "cookie cutter" build (or variants of it).
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OMG you think barbs are powerful. Yes we survive the best, but we have the worse killing rate. Most attacks are single target that makes killing time very long. All our dps depends on DoT. You see people running with little tornadoes, do you not know monk has the same ability and better attack power?

You kidding?!
Cleave
Bash
Seismic Slam
Hammer
Revenge
Overpower
Furious Charge
Earthquake
Call of Ancients
Weapon Throw'

All multiple target 'cept for Weapon Throw on which you need Ricochet or Dread Bomb.


YES. I use mostly cleave and rend, which are both AOE's, and I'm set up so my fury is never really diminishing. I punish groups with impunity.
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01/14/2013 11:44 PMPosted by koacrixis
Also keep in mind half of us MONKS do NOT use most of the other skills out there because the resource cost is so HIGH and DEMANDING that it is not worth using even if it does more %dmg it still ends up being worthless.


This right here couldnt of been said any better.
It doesnt matter how how the buff the spirit spender's damage. When they cost 1/3rd or 1/2 of our spirit it makes them useless. My monk swings at 2.03, each generating 3 spirit. It will take me almost 7 seconds to use exploding palm. In mp0-2 on live, i can kill elites/champs under 10 seconds with the standard build.

Other reason the damage buff to exploding palm and wave of light makes no difference. The animation of these spells TAKES FOREVER to go off. Wave of light also knocks back. Now if you dont kill them in 1 hit, you get to chase them back down. Also neither spell works very well with life steal or life on hit. Which makes a huge difference when it comes to doing any mp level.

If this goes live, the same thing will happen when they buff the spirit spenders the first time. Everyone will try them for a couple days just to see how they work. Then go right back to the build theyve been using since they got to 60.
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- no matter what skills you're using, which class you are, if you DO NOT have the right gears, it doesn't matter

- monks DOES NOT have anything / gears that'll BOOST spirit pool

- monks HAVE to use one passive to gain 100 additional spirit pool

- monks DOES NOT have crit on spirit return, therefore fast attack speed matters

- monks DOES NOT benefit from BELT having LIFESTEAL

- monks DOES NOT have skills / passives that gives LIFESTEAL


One more

- monk primary stat does nothing to mitigate damage from ground effects and reflect damage

You made some great points. I haven't played my monk in a while, but I did today not long after playing my barb. It's incredible what a pain in the butt it is to play a melee character that is actually affected by crowd control :/

01/14/2013 11:38 PMPosted by Gorthon
This is pretty much Trail of Cinders all over again. I don't think these numbers will survive the PTR


Kinda what I was thinking. Remember the Hellfire ring did mad mad damage in ptr at first. These number haven't been officially released by Blizzard, so don't hold your breath or get your undies in too tight a bunch.
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I don't miss the skills on my barb when I play my monk. But SW monks are boring. Much less action than a spirit Barb. Please don't cry about not getting enough resource on a monk, try a witch doctor than you will know getting resource is hard.
Barb Immunity is OP, can't say anything about that if it was removed Barb don't get everything else you say.


My first two characters (and you'll note, by FAR best geared) are WD and monk. Primarily a WD player. I call BS on your play WD note. I WISH my monk had the ability to generate rescources like my WD does. My WD does OCCASIONALLY run out of mana, but spends the majority of every fight spamming bears, the highest cost spammer I have, and one with CRAZY dps. On my monk? I can't even look at wave of light, half my spirit? hardly worth it. I could use it twice and then hope for mercy that I don't run into trouble, because if I get low on health with no spirit I'm flat out ****ed. All my defensive skills cost spirit and the only way to get spirit is to hit the mobs I'm now DESPERATELY avoiding.
Edited by Guybrush#1585 on 1/15/2013 2:42 AM PST
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Oh this is cute! A barbarian complaining about buffs another class is getting!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost 100% sure I saw numerous barbarians saying don't ask for nerfs to our class, ask for buffs to yours.
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01/15/2013 01:02 AMPosted by Deus
Who cares how much damage WoL does? Its tedious animation coupled with the unbearable monk's resource regen makes it an absolute gimmicky skill


explosive light is pretty amazing.
good to see some monk skills getting a buff.

rightfully so too, monks need more build variety.
Edited by Razor#1728 on 1/15/2013 3:06 AM PST
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