Diablo® III

What D2 had that D3 does not.

Skill dmg was independent of weapon dps, giving more options on viable gear. Hence, when building a character from scratch, gear was not the only variable to take into account. It is in this game, in which the options that the player has in character development is more akin to a FPS than an RPG.


Unless, of course, your were building an Amazon, Paladin, Barbarian, Martial Arts Assassin, or Werewolf Druid.

Casters had it easy in D2 specifically because there damage was somewhat independent from gear. The D3 team saw this as a problem and addressed it by basing all skill damage off of weapon damage.
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Posts: 75
People just don't understand... Everyone rags on these new titles coming out how they don't stand up to the bigger dogs... Why all the new MMO's dont stack up to WoW, and why D3 is being a failure when compared to D2. The answer is TIME. In time good things can come out of seemingly hopeless. I have been continuing to be a D3 loyal player since it's release because I see Blizzard really wanting to make this game into something really grand, something that can be called a successor to Diablo 2. It'll take time, and a lot of hard work, and tweaking to the system, but I believe if they really want to do it, they can.. One of their biggest helps is the community itself, if they listen to the community, they can make someone wondrous.
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"D2 since skills were based on level, you could still do something with no gear, even in PvP you could see a naked bone necro own geared players."

LOL, stopped reading right there, did you only duel with complete retard? Of the people I dueled, none can be beaten by any naked character.
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Decide to read some more for lols, didn't have to wait long.

"D3, you do not have much choice in gear or gear options because your damage is dependent on how much IAS,crit damage, crit chance, and primary stats you can get on your items.
So every one wants the same items with same stats, leaving little room for anything else. "

That's super retarded, in D2, caster needs 2 stats for DPS, skill level and casting speed, we now have 5,(You missed weapon damage) and you are !@#$%ing, trolololololol.
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blizzard could of easily made up stats that were all equally viable for each class or stats that would help out for what you were lacking in your build, but they didnt they instead took out lvling up stats which was a bad idea from the beginning.

i wish i could of been there watching them make this game. they seemed to screw up a lot and wasted a lot of time redesigning things again and again which, later resulted in releasing an unfinished game. this game also doesn't seem that great or long considering how much time they worked on it for, whats up with that blizzard?
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diablo 2 had way more viable builds for end game then i feel diablo 3 ever will come close to having.
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01/13/2013 11:00 PMPosted by Alchemist
diablo 2 had way more viable builds for end game then i feel diablo 3 ever will come close to having.


This is because D2 was a skill damage based game, not DPS. So what ended up happening is you had many builds but almost everyone had the same gear and stat allocation.

In D3 since its all about DPS the gear varies quite a bit, but the skill diversity lacks. Basically you want to use the highest damage skills, and passives, with a scattered few defensive skills.

Although there is at least 2 builds per character right now, which isn't super horrible.
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One of the most important things that facilitated D2's long-lived legacy was a sense of community and the ability to jump into games that had names that revealed the objective of the game! What a revolutionary concept! You mean, I can join a game that says "Ancients" and we will actually just do the ancients .. instead of joining a random "Act 5" game and hoping we'll get to it!?

I go into this in depth at this thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593621490?page=1

If you agree with me, or have anything critically constructive to say.. or hell if you wanna troll and bump it in the process, please visit and comment. I posted a different thread about a month ago after I found OneTwo's mockups for a new battlenet screen, and I got a blue response, so let's keep hammering this point home!
Edited by Agamemnicon#1713 on 1/13/2013 11:06 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
13710
Posts: 2,870


Really? You can farm a decent Skorn in a few minutes self-found? You can find gear capable of effortlessly farming MP5/keys in a few hours? Cause that's how long it takes to find enough gold to buy it on the AH.


It is apparent we have different ideas of what a "decent" Skorn is, considering the CHEAPEST one on the AH is 100k.


I just hit 60 in my example - can you read? I'm pretty sure the worst possible Skorn ever rolled in the history of the game is exponentially better than you'll have found pre-60.

Please don't attempt to argue with this. You're looking a little silly.
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D3 is too loot dependent to the point if you have no items equipped you dps is next to nothing.D2 since skills were based on level, you could still do something with no gear, even in PvP you could see a naked bone necro own geared players.Since D2 was not gear dependent you had much more choice in what gear you wanted to play around with, without sacrificing too much.


Not really.

Gear did need

+ skill (main source for damage)
+ Speed on boots
+ resi to get capped at 75 or even 90
+ mf
+ sockets either by BS or supplied by the item

So tell me again that gear didnt matter ;)

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
Creating unique item combinations in D2, adding more customization.


Either you had a full set, parts of your set with an Enigma, Harle + other runewords. D2 did not have a real variety in loot, you had your set just like you have one now + some super uniques that nobody will ever find, just like the HR´s for Enigma, Infinity etc. that you couldnt find.

Again you are wrong.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
With D3 having only a cap on run speed, people again are given little to think about in gear choice as like i said you simply try to keep increasing all the stats on items that gives you more dps.


A cap on crit damage and chance should be in the game, there I agree.

Loot was also much better in D2, as it was less random then it is in D3. In d3 you could find a lacuni bracers, but if they do not roll specific stats like crit or res all they garbage.


Yes it was less random to some degree, but seriously - to find an IK armor or any of the other super uniques and set pieces like Griswolds corona or Mavina´s Tiara, you did need years. This was not just frustrating but also unfair.
In 10 years of D2 I was only able to finish 1 set, the Tal set. Where is the fun in this?

At D3 you find an IK armor from time to time, not every armor will be high end but you can atleast complete your set this way, something you couldnt do at D2 as there was always 1 or 2 items impossible to find.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
Also in D2 you had rune words which worked out good. High runes were hard to find, but if you found enough low runs you could fuse them together creating a higher rune, so you always felt 1 step closer to getting some of the best gear in game.


Are you aware of the fact that someone had to farm 24/7 for 1 year to actually get close to beeing able to find a HR?
Nobody but the bots and very few extremly lucky lads did find those runes. The majority of the playerbase never saw a BER, ZoD, Jah etc.
If you wanted a HR you had to trade but those runes were mostly just dupes, as nobody really found them and if so you wouldnt give them out for some low lvl crap like some of the dupers did.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
So really there is nothing to grind towards as your items are based on what others find and post in the AH, and you only have 1.5days to try and get billions of gold to buy it.


Which wasnt any different at D2. Trading was the only way to get the good stuff, unless people did bot - which many did, sadly.
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01/13/2013 07:22 PMPosted by DragonLight
go to D2 as it was the 1st 8 months and see how it really was. D2 is around 10+ years . this game was patched to death and big DLC


I love when these people bring this argument to the table.... but but but but D2 didn't have all this when it came out...

Newsflash, there was no reason the dev team couldn't have added some of those things where D2 left off, considering they were already there for the taking.. It's called learning from your mistakes. You generally don't backtrack, but move forward instead.. or supposed to.

Think of it this way, you own a store that has several high selling items, that are pretty much considered staples to your store. You then decide to tear down your store and build a newer more modern version of it. Do you not want to put your hot selling items back in? Or do you want to remove all of them and leave your store half empty with stuff nobody wants.

Ask the devs how it's working out for them, how a game thats over 10yrs old is surviving and thriving better than their game which is barely 8 months old?
Edited by Deadlysynz#1583 on 1/13/2013 11:23 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
13710
Posts: 2,870
01/13/2013 11:16 PMPosted by Espinosa
D3 is too loot dependent to the point if you have no items equipped you dps is next to nothing.D2 since skills were based on level, you could still do something with no gear, even in PvP you could see a naked bone necro own geared players.Since D2 was not gear dependent you had much more choice in what gear you wanted to play around with, without sacrificing too much.


Not really.

Gear did need

+ skill (main source for damage)
+ Speed on boots
+ resi to get capped at 75 or even 90
+ mf
+ sockets either by BS or supplied by the item

So tell me again that gear didnt matter ;)


Sure. People beat Hell naked, solo. He didn't say gear was irrelevant, he said your character wasn't only its gear and utterly useless without. Don't willfully misinterpret quotes.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
Creating unique item combinations in D2, adding more customization.


Either you had a full set, parts of your set with an Enigma, Harle + other runewords. D2 did not have a real variety in loot, you had your set just like you have one now + some super uniques that nobody will ever find, just like the HR´s for Enigma, Infinity etc. that you couldnt find.

Again you are wrong.


Why are you talking about absolute end-game gear after years? Every build I've ever read up on has recommended low level gear, recommended "decent" gear and then recommended "best" gear, with a variation of pieces in each.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
With D3 having only a cap on run speed, people again are given little to think about in gear choice as like i said you simply try to keep increasing all the stats on items that gives you more dps.


A cap on crit damage and chance should be in the game, there I agree.


Along with the addition of other, meaningful stats.

Loot was also much better in D2, as it was less random then it is in D3. In d3 you could find a lacuni bracers, but if they do not roll specific stats like crit or res all they garbage.


Yes it was less random to some degree, but seriously - to find an IK armor or any of the other super uniques and set pieces like Griswolds corona or Mavina´s Tiara, you did need years. This was not just frustrating but also unfair.
In 10 years of D2 I was only able to finish 1 set, the Tal set. Where is the fun in this?

At D3 you find an IK armor from time to time, not every armor will be high end but you can atleast complete your set this way, something you couldnt do at D2 as there was always 1 or 2 items impossible to find.


How was it unfair? You could find plenty of amazing uniques/HRs if you played enough. I know I did. And you could trade them with real people, giving them what they want in exchange for what you want.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
Also in D2 you had rune words which worked out good. High runes were hard to find, but if you found enough low runs you could fuse them together creating a higher rune, so you always felt 1 step closer to getting some of the best gear in game.


Are you aware of the fact that someone had to farm 24/7 for 1 year to actually get close to beeing able to find a HR?
Nobody but the bots and very few extremly lucky lads did find those runes. The majority of the playerbase never saw a BER, ZoD, Jah etc.
If you wanted a HR you had to trade but those runes were mostly just dupes, as nobody really found them and if so you wouldnt give them out for some low lvl crap like some of the dupers did.


Utter nonsense. Obviously they were crazily rare, and obviously bots would find more, if they were running 24/7. This affected me how..? It certainly didn't decrease my excitement when I found one for myself. I could still have amazing fun leveling new alts all the time, trying new builds, experimenting, lld/mld,pking etc.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
So really there is nothing to grind towards as your items are based on what others find and post in the AH, and you only have 1.5days to try and get billions of gold to buy it.


Which wasnt any different at D2. Trading was the only way to get the good stuff, unless people did bot - which many did, sadly.


Absurd nonsense. Droprates in D2 were designed around small-scale trading. Droprates in D3 are designed around mass-scale AHs. Spot the difference. I really shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Of course you couldn't get full perfect gear in D2 self-found in a few weeks - no-one would have bothered playing. But you could and did find many amazing pieces for you and your alts.

In all my time playing D3, I didn't find a single upgrade for myself. I'm aware lots of people did, but ZERO upgrades for myself? Not 1, but 0. That's utterly and completely ridiculous.

I found so many upgrades for myself and my alts in D2 that to compare them is retarded.

In regards to bots - people bot heavily in both games. End of. Irrelevant point.
Edited by Sal#6192 on 1/13/2013 11:30 PM PST
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In D2 you built classes around items you find, in D3, nearly everything useful gets sold on the AH.

Still some people to this day like to claim the fallacy that D2 didn't have customization. The funny thing is, those who try to argue it by laying out all their points, are actually proving why D2 has more customization.

You can run around in D2 and be successful in mediocre gear if you allocated your skill tree and stat points correctly. You can't do that in D3, if your build isn't centered around All resistance, CD, or CC or a combination of the 3, your build doesn't work.

Why would somebody re-roll a class? Not because they accidentally put the wrong points in the skill tree (if you did this, then your an idiot), they did it because there were many different builds available because of the wide variety of loot available. Again, this doesn't happen in D3 because.. of, you guessed it, your fab 3, All Resit, CD, and CC, without those, your build is useless.

Of course, any of you who try to refute it are free to prove us wrong here by say limiting your All resist to 100, your CD to 50, and your CC to 5, and then doing a stream on say MP 3, and show us exactly how much diversity D3 has..

With this, I'm sure there are some people that can show you a naked bone necro can take out a well geared player in D2.
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You are kidding me...

I had four different necro builds in D2....one of them a melee build to screw around with. The melee build required different gear, stats, and skills than the skeleton/corpse explosion, poison, and golem builds.

Skill dmg was independent of weapon dps, giving more options on viable gear. Hence, when building a character from scratch, gear was not the only variable to take into account. It is in this game, in which the options that the player has in character development is more akin to a FPS than an RPG.

Hell, even WoW, which is almost entirely gear-dependent, provides more options when creating characters.


Only 2 builds we're efficient in PVP for Necro's especially at high level PVP. Bone+Curse build and PNova+Curse build. The rest are just time wasters if you plan to even "touch" the online community.

Also, good luck getting the pure bone builds to level 99 in Hell difficulty. I myself cannot get passed the magic immune mobs let alone kill the elite's. I took forever to grind through Hell with that kind of an un-diversified build.

You'd have to reedit the character using a 3rd party editor just to make the build more PVE friendly. Many veteran's remember that Diablo 2 had a flurry of imbalances that are most horrifying PVP rather than PVE.

e.g. tele-iron maiden necs, tele-hammerdin's, tele-frozen orb sorcs, tele-rabies wolves, and the list goes on. Anyone else notice that teleport is easily spammable on all classes in Diablo 2? lol.


Who said anything about touching the online community? It seems as though, just like D2, most of the D3 players play in "single" player mode. Also, did I mention anywhere in my post that such "inefficient" builds were used for PVP. Like many people, I had one or two main chars that I used for PVP situations and then created the rest for the challenge and fun of trying out non-optimal builds in PVE. This isn't about top level endgame play, it is about replayability....which D3 lacks, as there is absolutely no reason to create multiple chars of the same class (unless you are playing hardcore)..

If you were not that type of gamer that enjoys the character building aspect, fine with me. However, the point is that D3 doesn't even give a such a player the opportunity to do so. In any ARPG, or even MMO such as WoW, I absolutely loved leveling up different classes and builds just for the simple experience and challenge of doing so. The journey was the fun of it for me (and many other gamers). That is, without a doubt, lacking in D3.

The fact that you even mentioned how difficult it was to level an "un-diversified" build confuses me. My point was that such builds were still viable to play PVE. Making the decision to lock oneself into such a build provided the challenge and fun to continue playing.

In WoW, I had my PVE toon and a separate PVE toon...since when was it a rule that all characters have to be viable in both PVE and PVP. That is news to me and has simply never been the case. Sure, one can have the option of building a character viable in both respects, but then that character build would be different that the builds of chars specialized in one over the other. Again, at this juncture, this doesnt exist in D3.

To players that focus only on high level endgame content, this probably doesn't matter. I accept that. But I ask you to at least recognize that there are other legitimate players that gain the most enjoyment out of creating and lvling different characters through the game. From this perspective, D3 is sorely lacking.
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i also liked that in diablo 2 poison damage did damage over time. were in diablo 3 its no different then any of the other spell damage which i feel is just another way they dumb down there game.
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01/13/2013 11:04 PMPosted by DarthSki44
Although there is at least 2 builds per character right now, which isn't super horrible.


actually considering how many skill choices there are it is super horrible.
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01/13/2013 07:59 PMPosted by Calamity
D3 is too loot dependent

I clearly should've stopped reading there, but I couldn't help myself.
in PvP you could see a naked bone necro own geared players.

Definitely stopped reading your garbage there.


Hes right though.
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90 Human Death Knight
13710
Posts: 2,870
01/14/2013 12:09 AMPosted by Ender
People still think this game is trying to be DII? Keep dreaming.


Agreed.

It gave up and settled for Tier 2 quite a while back.
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Is this a troll thread? Holy crap, I haven't seen a thread on the D3 forums with more paragraphs of text.

i also liked that in diablo 2 poison damage did damage over time. were in diablo 3 its no different then any of the other spell damage which i feel is just another way they dumb down there game.


Their game is dumbed down completely. It plays exactly like the Call of Duty games: there is one clear objective, and that's the only thing you can do. If you do anything else, it feels like an utter waste of time. And it is. Follow the quest objectives, kill some monsters with the same boring skills (or use four different-but-equally-boring skills that are in no way special), watch a cutscene you've seen 1000 times before but only wanted to watch once, fight an "epic" battle that is nearly identical to every other boring fight you've had, pick up the 1 rare item that dropped when the boss is dead, wait 2 seconds to validate that the item is garbage, walk over to the vendor, sell the item, repair your gear, repeat. That will always be Diablo 3.

So crack a beer, get a little tipsy, and have a piss on Diablo 2's grave with me, Blizzard, and all the other people who bought this game because they played Diablo 2 and thought Diablo 3 was a sequel. As our urine patters upon the supple sod, it trickles quietly towards its unseen destination before vanishing into the ground where the blades of grass meet the soil. Perhaps our pious offering will awaken the spirit of a real game, if only briefly, in our collective consciousness, and an umbra of Diablo 2, magnificient and radiant in all its glory, will bathe us in its golden light, a reminder that we once battled in the bygone days of game design. But the pattering slows, then stops. The apparition is gone. We zip our pants and the yolk of reality again weighs heavy about our necks: Diablo 2 decomposed long ago in a coffin labeled "Blizzard North."
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