Diablo® III

What D2 had that D3 does not.

01/14/2013 07:36 PMPosted by KillinTime
how can a man with nothing win over a man with everything
With superior skill

Why did I even need to explain this? Are you that dense?


since it singled out bone necros that sounds more like class imbalance than skill

not that a naked anyone could beat anyone with good gear, the thought is laughable. try out running those GAs that will kill you in 1 hit with your 0 move speed necro.
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Adam Sessler was right. Seems only the "flaming fanboys" are complaining about what a game developer do with their property.

Diablo 3 was decent. It wasn't perfect, but it's better than D2. And to those that consider it the worst game ever made. I would have to call you out as another game had that title for 2012 and it's called Battleship (based off the movie). Oh and Atari's ET the Extra-Terrestrial
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D3 is too loot dependent to the point if you have no items equipped you dps is next to nothing.
D2 since skills were based on level, you could still do something with no gear, even in PvP you could see a naked bone necro own geared players.
Since D2 was not gear dependent you had much more choice in what gear you wanted to play around with, without sacrificing too much.
D3, you do not have much choice in gear or gear options because your damage is dependent on how much IAS,crit damage, crit chance, and primary stats you can get on your items.
So every one wants the same items with same stats, leaving little room for anything else.
D2 also had caps, IAS cap,FCR cap, FHR cap. So with caps you had to think about what item combinations should I choose to give me X amount of fhr,fcr and ias and so forth. Creating unique item combinations in D2, adding more customization.
With D3 having only a cap on run speed, people again are given little to think about in gear choice as like i said you simply try to keep increasing all the stats on items that gives you more dps.

Loot was also much better in D2, as it was less random then it is in D3.
In d3 you could find a lacuni bracers, but if they do not roll specific stats like crit or res all they garbage.
Also in D2 you had rune words which worked out good. High runes were hard to find, but if you found enough low runs you could fuse them together creating a higher rune, so you always felt 1 step closer to getting some of the best gear in game.
In d3 you mainly have to rely on other people finding the items you want for you, and when they do find them you have to grind forever to get gold to buy them.
And with gold losing its value all the time, with little amount of gold sinks and tons of gold bots items become more expensive to the point where it would take you 2 years to grind enough gold for the items you want, and by the time you grind for the gold the item is all ready gone.
So really there is nothing to grind towards as your items are based on what others find and post in the AH, and you only have 1.5days to try and get billions of gold to buy it.

Thoes are some of the things which I do not like about d3 making it feel less like D2. Thought I share my thoughts about it.


Did ANYBODY play anything other than a damn hammerdin or sorc? It seems not. Those are the classes you talk about doing stuff with no gear. Take a barb in hell with no gear see how far you get, or any other melee class for that matter. Really now.

Edit:

BTW I think hammers were the lamest and just overall gayest skill ever. Spiraling magical hammers that kill anything woo hoo.
Edited by Necksnapper#1372 on 1/14/2013 11:50 PM PST
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Posts: 6
LOl this is so funny complaining about the loot hunt, maybe play more? i played d2 when it first came out and d3 when it first arrived. d2 was by far the worst for mfing aka loot hunting not a single leg was wroth anything in d2 it was all rares. you guys act like mfing in d2 was the best thing in the world, well for you botter maybe that is true
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01/13/2013 08:07 PMPosted by LaZ
Ya those barbs were godly in D2 with no gear...

The thread should have ended here.

The whole point of the thread was that D3 is too loot dependent. He then gives an example that applies to only classes that get damage from skills. The flaw with that is that there are at least 4 classes that get effective builds using weapons. The other two can get some questionably effective builds that probably require very special gear (bear sorc build for example).

So, 4 classes that, when you remove JUST their weapons... their damage disappears. Remove all items, and then pit them against a naked caster. Oh yeah, the problem is DEFINITELY being loot dependent.

The OP may be correct, but using this kind of argument is pretty much not.
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01/15/2013 12:31 AMPosted by Aspie
Ya those barbs were godly in D2 with no gear...

So, 4 classes that, when you remove JUST their weapons... their damage disappears. Remove all items, and then pit them against a naked caster. Oh yeah, the problem is DEFINITELY being loot dependent.

The OP may be correct, but using this kind of argument is pretty much not.


The thing is though that D2 gave you this option. There were of course builds and characters that needed good gear to succeed. Barbs, melee pallys ,Bowazons etc... But to play the game, not just play PvP, PvM too, you had a fair shot at it with many builds and minimal/sweet fa gear.

There was a path in D2 for people who didn't feel like grinding 1000 hours for a few points of vitality or dmg. And those people that did feel like grinding the rewards were more than just that. Faith bows, IK sets, grizzy sets(Items that changed how your character played in wild and fun ways) etc etc..... Not a stupid random yellow with 250 dex and 100 all res.

A character in D3 with no items is 100% useless, guaranteed. You can't build your way out of it because there are none, even with items there are 2 builds for every character, tank or glass cannon. Hell any character with anything less than an inventory full of ilvl63's is garbage. Too linear, too dull, shallow.
I really really hope they fix this. Unfortunately I don't think its going to be happening.
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Multiplayer that lagged all of the time no matter what.
An account that could be deleted if you didn't play every three months.
The joy of having to rebuild a character from scratch because of misdistributing one stat point.
Skill ^&*%ing Trees.
Open loot for anyone to pick up that isn't shared so good luck getting anything in multiplayer without using a mouse macro program.
Gold that required you to click on every single pile.
Getting Ganked by players claiming they were going to help you out with little to no warning. (I loved being killed by a Hydra right outside of a town portal, didn't you?)
The only place in the game for experience being cow level.
The only place in the game for loot being Pindleskin or Baal.

I haven't once played D2 since D3 came out. I don't plan to. If I have an ARPG itch while D3's servers are down, I play Torchlight 2... which has some nice features, but the multiplayer experience is meh, and the combat doesn't feel nearly as good. Really good game for an indie developer though, considering it does actually hold itself against a AAA title.
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01/15/2013 12:31 AMPosted by Aspie
So, 4 classes that, when you remove JUST their weapons... their damage disappears. Remove all items, and then pit them against a naked caster. Oh yeah, the problem is DEFINITELY being loot dependent.


I did not say D2 was not loot dependent, I saying D3 is too much loot dependent. In D2 if you were not a caster you did not have to have max crit/crit chance/attack speed/main stat in order to do good damage.
Because of this you would not lose 200k dps if you decided to choose a different set of items.
In D3 you are not givin much choice because of how much you sacrifice by choosing something else that does not have thoes specific stats. But in D2 you would not lose 25% of your dps for using a different set of gloves.
Heck people used a glove that could be found in NORMAL difficulty because of its stats, If any one remembers Cleglaw's gloves.
This was what made D2 great for customization you could use items you found in NORMAL difficulty that would still be of use to you at high lvl or even high end dueling.
Edited by Why#1611 on 1/15/2013 11:20 AM PST
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This whole post is dumb. If you weren't there for the beginning of D2 you have no right to complain about Mfing.

At least in D3 you can kill monsters in inferno. In D2 it was nightmare mode for 100 hours till you could even sniff Hell. Unless you got lucky.

Also they never fixed ANYTHING in D2. It took years for simple mistakes. You couldn't buy mana potions till 3 versions in.

If you love d2 so much go play it?
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I just wanted to Jump in and throw my bit in ^^

I'll go with a Pro/con type setup. (Played D2 for around 6 years, and D3 for a few weeks)

My D2 Pros.
.Skill trees had enough customization to try and create your own skill build, while still being able to afford a nice gear set-up to compliment it and make it viable.
.Barter system trading tempted people to trade Gear for Gear, making it not too hard to wriggle a deal with two people trading out somthing they couldn't for somthing they could.
.HighRunes were currency. Others may just think Botters and dupers, but believe it or not They werent too hard to get your hands on, and no item was out of reach. Even to hear a price of 100hrs wasnt a leap too far.And thats for the best of the best. 12hrs and you had a decently geared character ready to storm hell.
.Rewarded for percivierance. Set items and uniques dropped pretty commonly for me when mfng, and alot of my best gear was found just from playing and getting the drops on accident.
.Pvp may have been unequal but IMHO any class could pwn. Ive played every one, and the determining factor in pvp was who could keep theirselve from being hit. Sure one class may have a higher top damage/dps but practically everyone could one shotted.
.And just in general the entire tone of D2 was Dark. I mean all the cut-scenes about the wanderer suffering in turmoil, the gore, the scremes of agony. Monsters yelling as they were exploding.

My D2 Cons.
.Too many unreliable scammers.
.Having to reclaim your corpse.
.No such thing as Group Mfing, Loot ninjas stalked every game.
.The difference between playing solo and playing in a group exp wise was insane.

My D3 Pros.
.Group play has alot more purpose then simply Baal running all day.
.Level cap not out of reach, and giving prestige to reward you after capping.
.Any character can Mf with prestige.
.Auction house makes locating your needed item alot easier.
.No need to roll a new character to change skills.
.You can now be a male OR female Wizard xD
.Mp levels Give you somthing to strech for rather then gearing up just to kill bosses in hell mode faster(Not including the Pvp side)
My D3 cons.
.Finding an item on your own is less reliable, and obtaining That Upper status is much harder to afford.
.I feel as if D3 presents a Fairy like ambiance to it rather than D2s Dark feeling. I can actually play this game in the dark without getting the feeling im being watched.
.When Pvp drops, balancing the classes is not the issue. The vast difference is Dps between the extremes of rich and poor is what will break it.
.Smaller feeling of reward after a days play from this then from D2.
.In D2 i felt like a pro, because I was a pro. Even upon making a new character I would think to myself " Damn, I'm gonna play him well, and his days of pvp success arent far away". In this its more like "Damn, another new guy? I just spent 900 hours getting my main geared".

I think both games have their ups and downs, but I can still remember Buying D2 and playing it on my Dial-up connection every day after middleschool until it was time to sleep. Mercilessly killing Mephisto. Hunting keys to kill the fairly tough ubers, that gave a shot at a nice reward. I can even remember quiting WoW a month after its launch to continue playing D2 another 2 years.

I Don't know if it was the timing or what, but so far sentimentally D3 hasnt made a dent yet.

And for my closing statement!
I have played Torchlight 2 and even though D3 Isnt D2 yet, it still trumps TL2.
D3 is to "Fitted" as TL2 is to "Chaotic". Although I wouldn't expect any longtime Diablo player to side with Tl2. xD
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01/13/2013 08:07 PMPosted by LaZ
Ya those barbs were godly in D2 with no gear...


They still had skills that did damage without gear...
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Also in D2 you had rune words which worked out good. High runes were hard to find, but if you found enough low runs you could fuse them together creating a higher rune, so you always felt 1 step closer to getting some of the best gear in game.


You speak the truth. I never know when I can find a witching hour by myself, not to mention the one with correct stats, so there is really no feeling of "progress" after grinding every day as Jay mentioned in the paragon blog.
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01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
D2 since skills were based on level, you could still do something with no gear, even in PvP you could see a naked bone necro own geared players.


I seriously doubt that, unless :
-By 'naked' you mean 'some piece of gear missing, but a full inventory of bone charms, annihilus and hellfire torch
-By 'geared' you mean 'level 50 players with sigon set'
and
-by 'players' you mean 'they were standing still, half afk outside the town'.

01/13/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Why
if you have no items equipped you dps is next to nothing.

And... how is that a problem exactly?
How realist/logic would that be if you could just walk around naked and destroy demons, or punch your way through full plate armors with your fist?
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I seriously doubt that, unless :
-By 'naked' you mean 'some piece of gear missing, but a full inventory of bone charms, annihilus and hellfire torch
-By 'geared' you mean 'level 50 players with sigon set'
and
-by 'players' you mean 'they were standing still, half afk outside the town'.


Ok bone necro is kind of an unfair example as he does magic damage which can not be resisted and can use bone prison and bone armor.
But point I was trying to make is that you have much more choice because of how items were designed, one item did not boost your dps by +25%.
Like I pointed out earlier people even in high lvl duels still use items that can be found in normal from death sash for its can not be frozen stat, and cleglaw gloves for its knockback and slow and thoes fire boots for their fire res +max fire res stats, and angelic ring/amulet for its attack rating ect.
Edited by Why#1611 on 1/15/2013 4:43 PM PST
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D2 did not take an Einstein to figure out. It is only a little bit more complex than this game. I can easily figure out how to make any build that I want for any class and maybe even be correct on choosing the right gear for the build.

It is only tough for those that make it tough on themselves. It is only tough for those that are new. But after about a month or less you will figure it out. Most if not all of it without bothering to look anything up online at all.


Doesn't need to be amazingly complex and difficult to work out to have great replayability


True but I crave a challenge in that department as well. In order for a game to truly call itself complex in building I need something that gives me a real challenge. Not something that is obvious, similar to this game and even D2. It is obvious what is a good build and a bad build.

Someone please explain to me why they "nerfed" our ability (from D2) to use our brains and free will to create/select games to play in. As in games with names. As in, the objective is clear before you enter the game. Now that we'll have monster power in public games, public gaming should improve right?

Wrong

Say you join an Act 3 game at MP6 assuming they're farming the keywarden, but in reality they're just doing a farming run. There's no way to tell, because the only information you have is the quest. Point is, virtually nobody plays quests anymore, they simply play at a quest level that gives them access to the waypoints they need for their particular objective. This creates a mess in-game, with people going willy-nilly or just quitting because the party isn't doing what they thought they'd do.

If you support the idea that we need a game lobby, PLEASE visit and bump my thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593621490?page=1

D2 did not take an Einstein to figure out. It is only a little bit more complex than this game. I can easily figure out how to make any build that I want for any class and maybe even be correct on choosing the right gear for the build.

It is only tough for those that make it tough on themselves. It is only tough for those that are new. But after about a month or less you will figure it out. Most if not all of it without bothering to look anything up online at all.


I think you missed the point of my post, it wasn't about builds at all, but about how sterile and lame the current public game system is compared to D2's.


While true I was commenting solely on the point of using our brains and that comment got me thinking about builds. So that is why I went a little off track in my reply. But I will now say that I would not agree with the idea of being able to name games. The reason is clear, it would cause more lag in our game. More games out there means more monsters spawned, so more of everything. Meaning more resources that the Blizz servers are using so we will see more lag.
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D2's story, while not out of this world, was good enough. D3's story is painful, not just because it's forced upon you at all times but because it's cliche and there are glaring plot problems. The lord of lies is transparent, literally and figuratively. The great military tactition's strategies are straightforward, you know them all in advance and they all fail. The mysterious witch with an evil voice whose evilness is constantly being suggested to you ends up *gasp* betraying you.
D2's music is extremely fitting. D3's music is forgettable.


What D2's story was a great who done it mystery where you had no idea of what will happen next. Heck I figured out the story because it was as transparent as this game. D2 lead you by the nose the whole time.
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To all you naysayers about D2 having not much in the way of builds, all I got to say is goto

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?s=558ee84808e5eae7599e9175e18f0467 Check out the creativity and unique functional builds.

Those guys give you plenty of reasons to reroll ... and to enjoy it while your building.
They are and have been one awesome community for as long as I can remember.

Also why has no one made mention of LLD?? Hell, that was a whole new side to d2 that could keep you addicted .... Lvl 9, 12, 15 ,18 , 21 , 25 , 30... etc. goes on and on. And adds a whole new enconomy based off low lvls items. Something that is non existent in D3.
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Not reading through all the pages, but responding directly to the OP, D2 *DID* have it so that your damage was affected by your weapon (and by gear) for a lot of skills mainly for Barb, Druid, Assassin, etc.

D2 was massively imbalanced for this reason to. I, for one, am 100% glad skill damage is based on weapon damage.
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