Diablo® III

How to Make Loot Fun - Potential of D3

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01/17/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Dwelve
I guess I can see that point. Personally though I'd like to see a return to something akin to D2's crafting system. (People still remember that D2 had crafted items right?) That system worked really well and would have been a great place to begin to D3. The system still incorporated RNG but it gave the player enough control to get something that had a reasonable chance of being useful if not amazing. It also scaled quite well with character level so the system was useful throughout the entire character progression.Ultimately the late game needs unique crafting recipes with special effects like you listed but the base system itself still needs a greater measure of control. The costs associated with crafting the the incredible reliance on RNG is just too high. Even if you do get 10 items from a craft would you be very happy that your high end mats were wasted when you find that not one of the 10 items has remotely the affix combination you were looking for? I think it would lead to the same disappointment many face with the current system. The loot pinata is only exciting when you find useful items at a decent rate.


Hmm the upgrade vs. nonupgrade is a huge problem of every progression system. But yeah every time you do not find an upgrade it IS a letdown. However, people nowadays are very used to the auction house and therefore think it's sooo hard to find upgrades at all. I play selffound only and i can still find an item upgrade or sidegrade on every run (because my gear sucks!). As i have mentioned the best way to combat this problem of progression is to give the player as many paths to walk on simultaneously as possible. You CAN dedicate yourself to craft thousands of the same item but the upgrades have to be almost trivial at some point. The last "reasonable" upgrade should come after about 100 crafts:
1st craft-> upgrade
next 4 items -> bleh
5th item -> upgrade
12th item -> upgrade
23th, 41th, 68th, 99th, 155th, 290th, 500th item -> upgrade
Now the great thing about parallel progression is that once you have the third upgrade you can just say "well that's enough stats on the crimson chest" and continue to blast your mats into the other crimson crafts or start ember crafts.

You just have to give the player equal choices that really feel like a change.

And RNG CAN be much more rewarding if you don't allow the players to spam the AH with their items.

The upgrade vs. non-upgrade issue is definitely one problem but it isn't the only. There is still the issue of if it isn't an upgrade for me it isn't an upgrade for most. The stat system and itemization in general is too narrow. D3 items can simply be garbage, items that are bad for any player and it happens far more often than it should.

D2 was better in that you may not find a personal upgrade but the item may still be valuable. A +skills, FCR, mana regen ammy that drops for a barb isn't likely to be of much value to him but he'll be excited to find it nonetheless knowing that it will be very valuable in a trade. This sort of excitement doesn't happen as often in D3 because all classes are funneled down the same narrow stat progression. So it isn't just a matter of other systems implemented it is also a matter of the core itemization itself that needs to improve.

Merging of DPS affecting spell damage, merging cast speed with attack speed, and the removal of things like attack rating homogenized the stat system. It may have made it simple enough for a monkey to understand but it also removed much of the value inherent to item variety.
However, people nowadays are very used to the auction house and therefore think it's sooo hard to find upgrades at all. I play selffound only and i can still find an item upgrade or sidegrade on every run (because my gear sucks!).

Definitely agree with this, and as I said, I also exclusively use gear found in game. IMO d3 isn't appreciably better or worse than d2 as far as drop rates, the auction house has just seriously warped reality.

Referring back to how I make gear choices, though, it will be interesting to see how/if unlocking NV (just hit lvl60 for the first time last night) will change this. Will I still sacrifice stats to equip MF gear, or will I keep status up so I can get to the next elite faster and retain 5 stacks?


Ive said the numerous amounts of times. the drop rate of legs in diablo 3 was fine.. the diffrence between the two was for instant if yo found a shako you knew to a dergree what affixes it would have.. which in turn why selling un ID was ok.. if blizz makes there legs have base line affix (varing in small degree for ex. between 50- 75 diffrence) These whole complaining about legendaries would be resolved. Most would need to be re wroked to accomodate this but still it would work..as far as how it would affect AH? i dont see how it would...everything would have pretty much fixed prices and would inflate or deflate according to demand.

Also adding the ability to assign you paragon points would would make a hugh diffrence in character customization.
Edited by warbuckaz#1718 on 1/17/2013 10:31 AM PST
Definitely agree with this. IMO d3 isn't appreciably better or worse than d2 as far as drop rates, the auction house has just seriously warped reality.


Pff, you just disagreed with me! You can't make that up by agreeing now! We will never be friends...

But yeah you are right on the "i take hits on the dps to increase defense" thing. And i know that feeling of dropping 3000 dps!!! (which is insane) just to get back that awesome armorpiece with vitality and pickupradius and allresist and +10000 to globes/pots because you felt mor comfortable with it. However, it still isn't as thoughtprovoking as people want it to be. You have to be crying and withering when you switch your items because you don't know which is better. Both choices have to be awesome situational alternatives. And especially when you look at the dps department it is hard to feel like the stats have "character". You WILL chose the option that gives you that green number if doesn't decrease your other stats. I usually don't even look what's better, i just see a green dps increase and this makes the item better.
01/17/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Dwelve
me! You can't make that up by agreeing now! We will never be friends.

Ha!

01/17/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Dwelve
You have to be crying and withering when you switch your items because you don't know which is better.

Go figure I go through this about 5 times a session ;). Again, this very well may be the case because I'm only just now hitting lvl60...

01/17/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Dwelve
You WILL chose the option that gives you that green number if doesn't decrease your other stats. I usually don't even look what's better, i just see a green dps increase and this makes the item better.

Oddly enough, my initial fixation was vitality...at one point, I think around lvl40, I had ~800 DPS and like 24K life...heh. After getting slaughtered by Rakanoth over and over again I rebalanced and since then I have resisted the urge to hyper-focus on any one stat.

Anyway, this is getting pretty far afield. I think we agree on your main point that the ability to quest to improve a marginal piece of gear so that it becomes the on-hand BiS would be fantastic. I regularly wish for just that ability. And, I like the idea of questing to imbue much more than the easier solution of allowing blacksmiths to socket gear. I do think the latter should be possible, but I think the cost should scale with ilvl, and that the highest level gear should even require socketing plans.

Put both together and it's feasible that you might use the same piece of gear for a *very* long time. I really like this concept. It could really deepen the sense of a character's uniqueness and of attachment to a given item ("I've had this piece of armor since I beat Diablo on normal, and now it's spec'd out for Inferno"). Might even be cool if a piece of gear somehow visually reflected its age.
Edited by Ickyfoot#1434 on 1/17/2013 10:50 AM PST
01/17/2013 10:30 AMPosted by WhoKnows
ve said the numerous amounts of times. the drop rate of legs in diablo 3 was fine.. the diffrence between the two was for instant if yo found a shako you knew to a dergree what affixes it would have.. which in turn why selling un ID was ok.. if blizz makes there legs have base line affix (varing in small degree for ex. between 50- 75 diffrence) These whole complaining about legendaries would be resolved. Most would need to be re wroked to accomodate this but still it would work..as far as how it would affect AH? i dont see how it would...everything would have pretty much fixed prices and would inflate or deflate according to demand.


Removing randomization so much would trivialize many rolls. I think there can be other ways to add value to legendaries. They currently DO have unique affixes but these simpy are not unique enough. I have mentioned what type of uniqueness i would like to see in the anthracite recipes of the crafting section. Anthracite recipes make your character deal damage everytime he hits with a cc ability by an item. The fitting legendary would look something like this:

Dominator:
- two handed weapon
- 1.4 attackspeed
- 200-400 dps
- QUADROUPLES the damage from your anthracite recipes (empathy)
- 4 random rolles

This HAS character and it's main use is to improve the anthracite recipes and every Dominator legendary serves this exact purpose. Some have to slightly better than others though, or you can just find one and be done with it.

Another example would be a helmet that gives up to 9% decreased blockchance but is Ilvl 55 or so. If you put this together with an Imbue of resilience you can create an entire build off of one unique.

Another example would be gloves that increase the damage of deflection by 10 times but are ilvl 5. If you put this together with the Imbue of refraction you can heavily influence your build at the cost of giving up your gloves.
Enjoyed the read and cool idea :)
01/17/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Onetwo
Enjoyed the read and cool idea :)


I don't believe you.
Nice and hard work!

I have to agree this game is living from its items. But the option to work on a special builds are horrible. The item affixes are boring. I want something like Diablo 2.

+ Cannot be frozen.
+ 20% to cast ice nova when struck.
+ 12 % damage goes to mana (maybe 10000 damage to 10 mana)
+ Offers "passive" when equipped
+ 200 (health based on character level)

Also I would appreciate when some items have extreme stats like:

+ 400 to cold resistance (work on monks passive)
+ 500 intelligence
+ 600 hp/sec

Ethereal items would be great for that too. That would also make blue items interesting again.

But now I feel like the devs were afraid to make mistakes and left a very important point totally "save/boring" for us gamers. Nothing to work with, either play defensiv or max damage but nothing to customize your playstyle or items to experiment.

Cheers!
01/17/2013 11:58 AMPosted by soc4real
Ethereal items would be great for that too. That would also make blue items interesting again.


If you can find a good way to implement those...

+50% damage isn't really balancable.
Stop talking about Jay!
01/17/2013 10:09 AMPosted by WhoKnows
very well done..i like the variety added to the jewel crafting system.. I'm sure how this would fit in but one of my favorite features of D2 was the ability to pic up a skill or two from another class. I would love for this to make a come back in some shape or form. A Bard with the ability to summon a Big Stinky would be bad-A$$


How about a barb with a perfect imbue of domination that has 6 ancients permanently? Doesn't that sound kind of interesting? :)
Bump!
Examples of unique imbue affixes:

- Completion bonus: Gain a random passive for your character (respective class only)
- Completion bonus: Teleport 20-60 yards by clicking "force move" on the ground while having the item not on cooldown, 60-10 seconds cooldown
- Completion bonus: Shield retaliation: After being struck the yielder has a 30%-80% chance to retaliate with 300%-2000% of intelligence as damage. The retaliation is not possible for 2 seconds after each block. (Coupled with this affix i would like to see at least one tier of shields that can role a lower block chance than 10%)
- Completion bonus: Sacred shield: When dropping below 50% HP a sacred shield appears and reduces all damage taken by 0.01%-0.1% of its wielders dexterity for 4 seconds, 60-15 seconds cooldown
- Completion bonus: 10%-50% Chance to vortex a monster towards the player if its attack is blocked
- Completion bonus: summoning mastery: Reduces cooldown of minion based spells by 1%-50%, Doubles the amount of minions summoned
- Completion bonus: Deflection: 1%-5% chance to deflect incoming damage (deflect = you take no damage) and deal 20%-60% of its damage to all enemies within your pickupradius
Cyan-recipes:
These allow players completely forgo the current defensive stats armor and resistance affixes by granting the player dodge and a bloodshield. Items crafted with these recipes have NO armor and NO resistance at all. They can not be imbued and can not be traded. Cyan items can be created for the belts, bracers and boots-slot. They have 3 base affixes:
+ 3000-15000 Healthglobes/Potions
+ 3%-13% Dodge
+ Bloodshield 10%-33% (Bloodshield: The character is surrounded by a shield with x% of your healthglobes/potion bonus. The shield regenerates 5% of its value per second.)
Along with these set affixes there are another 4 affixes (excluding armor/resist):
1. Either 1%-5% IAS OR Bonus minimum damage 5-33.
2. 3 random affix from the current affixtable.
Additionally to the affix-roles the player can enchant crafted items to gain one ability that is autocast every 30 seconds (wizard-armor,monk-mantra,barb-shouts). Only the latest ability that has been put on works (if the player has more than one enchanted item).
Any ideas for charms?
Okay basic idea about charms:

A combination of Diablo 2 runewords and Diablo 2 charms:

Talisman: A new window that can store charms in a 4x4 grid. There are 2 sizes for every type of charm. 1x1 and 2x1. The big charms are 3 times as good as the small ones. There are about 8 types of charms. They share a similar affix pool but the rarity of each following charm increases by 4 (Finding the first charm is 65536 more likely to happen than finding the last charm).Stacking certain charms in a specific order gives additional bonuses. Rarer charms can lead to better bonuses.

Example:

o o o o
o o o o
o o o o
o o o o

Putting the charms el, eld, tir in a certain order gives an additional bonus of 5% total strength.

el o o o
tir o o o
eld o o o
eld o o o

Because the "charmword" consists of only 3 charms one of those charms has to be a big one.

This row can be combined with another "charmword" called tir nef eld el which gives a chance to gain 10 spirit on every spiritspender:

el o o o
tir nef eld el
eld o o o
eld o o o

The talisman now gives the bonuses of every charm as well as 5% strength and 10 spirit per spiritspender.

This is the basic concept! There are still many things to figure out, but want to hear what you think of it so far!
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/18/2013 10:56 AM PST
Charms - Talisman:

Okay, now that you have made it so far you might be thinking what purpose can adding a talisman serve. Add more build diversity? Simply act as an additional item slot? A new unique way to allow for crazy affixes? Well, the answer to all three is NO. Talismans should NOT be build defining, they should NOT have superrare and unique affixes and they are NOT supposed to degenerate into a second necklace-slot. So what purpose do they have?

Charms and the talisman have to be an entirely independent meta-game where players can make lots of small and cool upgrades that on their own might seem trivial but when combined create a unique sort of progression. So, how is that accomplished?

To see where this idea is going I'll have to refer to a popular D2 mod called Median XL. Medians charm system sucked, but that's not what we are looking at. What we ARE looking at is the ridiculous amount of affixes items could have. Items could have 20 affixes and more. Looking through one of these items could take half a minute until you fully understood what this item actually does. And this was AWESOME! Items felt very unique, even affixes that didn't serve any purpose felt sweet simply because they created this huge wall of text. To accomplish the same thing in D3 we need the talisman.

At the opposite side of the necklace we add this cute little new item. When clicking on this item a new 4x4 frame opens. Charms (1x1 or 2x1) can be put into this 4x4 frame and so the max amount of charms the talisman can hold is 16. So when you hover over your mouse the talisman is going to show a huge wall of text with dozens of varying numbers. THAT is cool! THAT is the main purpose of the talisman. To have this permanently changing item that nobody else has in a similar way. Every talisman has to be unique, every talisman has to be more special than a snowflake. At the end of each month you are supposed to have the desire to show your talisman to your friendlist and compare it with theirs. SO LET'S GET STARTED!

Charmwords:

If charms are simply a +5 strength, +10 life slot it doesn't feel like something new. So in addition to each charm granting this small bonus it has the potential to be in a charmword.
Charmwords are a combination of runewords and charms and are the main way to add spice to the simple statstacking character of usual charms. The main reason why the talisman was scratched was because it didn't add any unique mechanic, it didn't add flavour to the game and that's why it wasn't a great addition. With charmwords you can have an entire metagame around the talisman that doesn't have a clear choice and allow for much customization. The first thing we need are different charms:

- 8 types of charms: Ar - Bon - Cur - Del - Elf - Fis - Gor - Hel

Similar to runes, but not in the overwhelming way of having 20 unusable ones. Players are supposed to occasionally find new charmwords by toying around with their talisman. Each consecutive charm is 5 times rarer than the previous one. "Ar" charms are as rare as current legendaries with 200% magicfind. 5 charms of the same type can be combined to create a charm of the next higher tier.

If any combination of these charms is put into a row it can be a charmword.

Example: The charmword Ar-Ar-Ar-Ar adds 5 to all stats. So in your early stages when you haven't found the rarer charms you will rely on these ones. So your talisman might look something like this:

0 0 0 0 > Ar Ar Ar Ar
0 0 0 0 > Ar Ar Ar Ar
0 0 0 0 > Ar Ar Ar Ar
0 0 0 0 > Ar Ar Ar Ar

This most simple version of a talisman grants additionally to each individual charm affixes another "5 to all stats" bonus for every column and row -> + (8 * 5 = ) 40 to all stats.

In an ideal situation there should be about 100+ different charmwords that are made by aligning 4 charms in a row. So such a talisman

Ar Bon Hel Elf
Del Bon Ar Cur
Fis Gor Cur Cur
Elf Del Fis Bon

has completely different bonuses if you even chose to switch one charm.

So lets create some charmwords:

- Ar Ar Ar Ar: +10 to all stats
- Bon Bon Bon Bon: +20 strength
- Cur Cur Cur Cur:+20 Intelligence
- Del Del Del Del: +20 Dexterity
- Elf Elf Elf Elf: +24 Vitality
- Fis Fis Fis Fis: Increases damage by 2% of your Dexterity (works additively to the main attribute)
- Gor Gor Gor Gor: Increases damage by 2% of your Intelligence
- Hel Hel Hel Hel: Increases damage by 2% of your Strength
- Ar Bon Cur Del: 4% increased movementspeed
- Ar Cur Del Bon: 8% increased attackspeed
- Ar Del Ar Del: 4% increased Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence
- Ar Del Cur Cur: 6% increased movementspeed
- Ar Ar Ar Del: 3% increased critical chance
- Ar Bon Bon Del: 8% increased total Strength
- Ar Ar Ar Cur: 36 Strength
- Ar Cur Cur Cur: 8% increased total Intelligence
- Ar Ar Del Del: 12% increased Strength, 12% reduced HP
- Ar Del Ar Ar: 25 minimal damage
- Bon Bon Ar Ar: 25 maximal damage
- Bon Cur Del Del: 12% increased Dexterity, 12% reduced HP
- Bon Ar Del Cur: 6% increased Dexterity
- Bon Ar Ar Ar: 35 fire damage
- Bon Ar Ar Cur: 35 cold damage
- Bon Cur Cur Bon: 35 arcane damage
- Bon Del Cur Bon: 40 poison damage
- Bon Bon Bon Del: 35 lightning damage
- Bon Ar Del Del: 5% increased critical damage
- Bon Cur Cur Ar: 20% increased critical damage, 10% reduced attackspeed (additively)
- Cur Cur Del Ar: 10% Armor
- Cur Cur Ar Bon: 500 Armor
- Cur Bon Bon Bon: Increases armor by 30% of your Strength
- Cur Bon Cur Cur: Increases armor by 30% of your Intelligence
- Cur Bon Del Del: Increases armor by 30% of your Dexterity
- Cur Bon Ar Ar: Increases armor by 40% of your Vitality
- Cur Del Del Ar: 12% increased Intelligence, 12% reduced HP
- Cur Cur Bon Bon: Increases damage by 20% of your dexterity
- Cur Ar Ar Cur: Increases physical damage by 5% of your physical resistance
- Cur Cur Ar Ar: Increases physical damage by 5% of your poison resistance
- Cur Del Bon Del: Increases strength gained from talisman by 50%
- Del Del Ar Bon: Increases physical damage by 5% of your lightning resistance
- Del Del Bon Del: Increases physical damage by 6% of your cold resistance
- Del Ar Bon Ar: Increases physical damage by 5% of your fire resistance
- Del Ar Cur Ar: 10% increased fire damage
- Del Bon Bon Bon: 10% increased cold damage
- Del Cur Cur Del: 12% increased lightning damage
- Del Ar Ar Cur: 10% increased poison damage
- Del Ar Ar Del: Increases physical damage by 5% or our arcance resistance
- Del Cur Ar Ar: 10% increased arcane damage
- Del Del Del Bon: Increases vitality gained from talisman by 50%

These are just a couple of possible stats.

Ar = Elf, Bon = Fis, Cur = Gor, Del = Hel

Create some talismans and try to be flexible! If your charm is similar or the same to some1 else's than the system has failed!

Example:

Ar Bon Del Ar
Bon Ar Del Cur
Cur Del Bon Del
Del Del Del Bon

4 columns (top to bottom) and 4 rows (left to right):
Bonuses: 4% MS, 6% of cold resistance to physicacal damage, 8% increased attackspeed, 6% increased dexterity, strength gained from talisman +50%, vitality gained from talisman +50%

to make things more interesting: Additionally to the rows and columns the charmwords work diagonal (top left to bottom right and top right to bottom left) and all corners (top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right). This would add following bonuses to the example:
Ar-Ar-Bon-Bon: -
Ar Del Del Del: dexterity from talisman +50% and
Ar Ar Del Bon: -

Don't forget that each charm on its own also has affixes just like the charms in D2!
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/19/2013 5:41 AM PST
Reserved.
Awesome read! I felt a flutter of excitement run through me when I think that something like this could be implemented into the game.
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