Diablo® III

How to Make Loot Fun - Potential of D3

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01/19/2013 01:46 AMPosted by Jetthawk
Awesome read! I felt a flutter of excitement run through me when I think that something like this could be implemented into the game.


Read the latest talisman / charms updated! It's not finished yet though.
Do you guys disagree or are you to lazy to read?
Bluebump required!
RIP Thread :(

The upgrade vs. non-upgrade issue is definitely one problem but it isn't the only. There is still the issue of if it isn't an upgrade for me it isn't an upgrade for most. The stat system and itemization in general is too narrow. D3 items can simply be garbage, items that are bad for any player and it happens far more often than it should.

D2 was better in that you may not find a personal upgrade but the item may still be valuable. A +skills, FCR, mana regen ammy that drops for a barb isn't likely to be of much value to him but he'll be excited to find it nonetheless knowing that it will be very valuable in a trade. This sort of excitement doesn't happen as often in D3 because all classes are funneled down the same narrow stat progression. So it isn't just a matter of other systems implemented it is also a matter of the core itemization itself that needs to improve.

Merging of DPS affecting spell damage, merging cast speed with attack speed, and the removal of things like attack rating homogenized the stat system. It may have made it simple enough for a monkey to understand but it also removed much of the value inherent to item variety.


Excelent post!
01/19/2013 11:55 AMPosted by Dwelve
RIP Thread :(


Don't worry Lylirra or Vaeflare will bump it 3 months later and everyone will be talking about it then and 1/100th of what you said will get implemented 6 months after that.
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wow, nice effort OP. I hope it gets noticed.
01/19/2013 12:21 PMPosted by AntonChigur
wow, nice effort OP. I hope it gets noticed.


Anything you disagree with?
01/19/2013 12:12 PMPosted by MasterJay
Don't worry Lylirra or Vaeflare will bump it 3 months later and everyone will be talking about it then and 1/100th of what you said will get implemented 6 months after that.


You can be damn sure a 4pages long thread has already been read by one of them. Again, they can't respond to every thread they ever read.
Currently i'm also thinking to add 6 more possible spots for charmwords, but reducing the effectys of charmwords by a factor of 4:

o x o x
x o x o
o o o o
o o o o

o o o o
o x o x
x o x o
o o o o

o o o o
o o o o
o x o x
x o x o

and

o x o o
x o o o
o x o o
x o o o

o o x o
o x o o
o o x o
o x o o

o o o x
o o x o
o o o x
o o x o

As i mentioned. It's IMPOSSIBLE to just go ahea and say "put them that way" (... hard to master"), but everybody who just randomly sticks charms into the talisman is going to understand how it works putting 4 charms in a row and getting a bonus ("easy to learn...).
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/21/2013 6:08 AM PST
01/16/2013 11:35 PMPosted by Dwelve
um... Very nice work there, but the devs don't want any of this. It clashes with their design philosophy of having the current auction house economy as the only source of character improvement. And even if once in a while some itemization features creep in, like the Marquise class, it will be reserved to the few random generated winners of the auction house economy because it will be so expensive that most of us can't even get near it.For your own peace of mind, please assume from now on that the makers of this game are mentally unable to grasp the concept of fair play or gaming fun.


Oh yeah, that's why they keep releasing accountbound items isn't it?

Bringing many players back is going to increase the games popularity by a lot and THIS IS a high priority of Blizzard.


The account bound items we see are a direct result of the poorly designed game which is based around the AHs.

Thing is, crafting always has been a problem in games.

Crafting is seen as a community thing, based around trading.
But, because it is based around trading, it is inherently limited as it would be easy to exploit, capitalize on, or basically encourage botting.

To start with, you have to look at whether crafting should be a trade or a personal/account bound system.
A bound system is free to be a very deep system with good, even BiS rewards, requiring heavy investment of time and materials and also risk to fail, but is frowned upon as it is non-social.
A free trade system, if following the above bound system in every other way other than bound, can be exploited by bots and therefore can become more of a negative to the community than an actual bound system. This is highly influenced by/dependent on how the trade system works.

The result we see in most games, is to go with the free trade system but make crafting largely pointless.

The question you must ask is; what's the better of two evils, a bound system that actually has viable crafting or a free trade system which is basically pointless.

Blizzard, from the get go, went with the region-wide AH's, this choice means that trading is as easy as it possibly can be, the result is that crafting will be as pointless as it can be or account bound.

There is a possible middle ground, where crafting can be free trade and actually viable.

There are two possibilities for this.
Both are not available to Blizzard.
1) Have trading be purely man to man, with no auction houses. While not perfect, this would allow some viability to crafting. Sadly the AHs are not only part of the game but the core of Blizzards philosophy.
2) Have no gold, the gold currency in and of itself strongly prevents crafting being viable in a free trade market. It is simply too easy to bot gold.

I always said the game company to crack the problem of crafting and trading, i.e. making crafting viable, not bound, in a free trade system without it being a red flag to a bull for RMT/bots would surely be on to a winner. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see this become a reality in a game I will not mention, but basically there is no gold, no AH no binding and it would appear for now - no bot problem, bliss.

Blizzard have little choice in their model but to bind crafted items or have crafting be pointless. The latter has been a thorn in D3's side, they have no choice now but to do the former.

TL;DR, Blizz are introducing account bound items for no other reason than they have no other choice.
01/23/2013 02:53 AMPosted by Anuhart
The account bound items we see are a direct result of the poorly designed game which is based around the AHs.


That's the mistake you're making. The droprates are the way they are because there will be no character wipe. There won't be ladders deleting all your items contantly and therefore you can not allow characters to reach 95% of their power after 2 months.

I've never felt like being forced into the auction house and i find upgrades permanentely. Surely if you start using the auction house you start thinking every nontrifecta item is useless, but in the end you are just creating a standard that's not existing.
POE!!!
Nice Thread Op. I think one of the main issues with the game is the lack of customization and char progress that we can command.
01/23/2013 07:37 AMPosted by Ravlaor
Nice Thread Op. I think one of the main issues with the game is the lack of customization and char progress that we can command.


Yes, the original design idea is pretty solid. "Customization through items" has the benefit that it allows to give many small rewards in many directions and therefore reward players constantly but the lack of alternatives makes it to hard to create proper progression.
The account bound items we see are a direct result of the poorly designed game which is based around the AHs.


That's the mistake you're making. The droprates are the way they are because there will be no character wipe. There won't be ladders deleting all your items contantly and therefore you can not allow characters to reach 95% of their power after 2 months.

I've never felt like being forced into the auction house and i find upgrades permanentely. Surely if you start using the auction house you start thinking every nontrifecta item is useless, but in the end you are just creating a standard that's not existing.


You find upgrades?

Dude, (and I'm not trying to be that 'your character sux guy') but I could take your most advanced character, that EU monk, and upgrade every single piece in a single Act 3 run, MF and all*. Mate, you are at the absolute beginning of lvl 60 progression.

Now, the next run I might upgrade 1 or 2, the next few runs maybe 1 piece.
Then and only then will you understand.

Seriously, what do you do? Farm hell?

*pro tip, forget the MF, kill speed, survival and dps in the MP you can handle efficiently > MF.

Edit, and in case it escaped your mind, I'm that 3000+ hr 100% self found barbarian that you have mistakenly preached to once before about the use of the AH.
Edited by Anuhart#2131 on 1/23/2013 2:37 PM PST


That's the mistake you're making. The droprates are the way they are because there will be no character wipe. There won't be ladders deleting all your items contantly and therefore you can not allow characters to reach 95% of their power after 2 months.

I've never felt like being forced into the auction house and i find upgrades permanentely. Surely if you start using the auction house you start thinking every nontrifecta item is useless, but in the end you are just creating a standard that's not existing.


You find upgrades?

Dude, (and I'm not trying to be that 'your character sux guy') but I could take your most advanced character, that EU monk, and upgrade every single piece in a single Act 3 run, MF and all*. Mate, you are at the absolute beginning of lvl 60 progression.

Now, the next run I might upgrade 1 or 2, the next few runs maybe 1 piece.
Then and only then will you understand.

Seriously, what do you do? Farm hell?

*pro tip, forget the MF, kill speed, survival and dps in the MP you can handle efficiently > MF.

Edit, and in case it escaped your mind, I'm that 3000+ hr 100% self found barbarian that you have mistakenly preached to once before about the use of the AH.


Not trying to be that guy but... if you played 3000 hrs you can be damn sure you won't find any upgrades that easily. If you still play the game even though you stopped enjoying it you are doing it wrong anyways.

*pro tip, forget the Alkaizer run pseudo elitism !@#$ and start PLAYING the game. And once you stopped enjoying that, take a break. This is how the game was designed at does that very well.
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/24/2013 7:44 AM PST
Phew, I finally read it all.

Why was this thread reported? Because of the caps?

Anyhow, it must have taken you a long, long time to write these ideas down. In general, I do like them. The only thing which doesn't seem that good to me is that runepower idea. In essence, it is a skill point investment system which bypasses XP gains and simply relies directly on monster kills. Just let Shen do his job of combining gems but introduce new gems and allow him to combine multiple gem types plus some other crating materials into jewels and trinkets as new types of socketables. Jewels and trinkets would have mostly predetermined affixes but their range would be quite wide so as to make good jewels/trinkets accessible but perfect ones elusive.

Instead of your runepower, I would propose a charm-like drop, let us call it "seals" which just like the charms would have a special storage space with very limited capacity (say 6 slots at level 60). These seals would drop randomly in the world with a much higher rate from bosses and slightly higher rate from elites.
Seals would only enhance skills. They could do it either by enhancing the base skill thus affecting all runes for that skill or by improving only a specific rune or a subset of runes. A skill could benefit at most from 3 such seals. Most seals would add utility to a specific skill/rune, not direct damage.

An example:
Ray of Frost seals
- seal A - Enemies affected by Ray of Frost have a 10-20% chance to get frozen (per cycle) for 2 seconds.
- seal B - Ray of Frost chills all targets within 5-10 yards of your primary target slowing them by 60% for 3 seconds.
- seal C - Ray of Frost's AP cost is reduced by 15% for every second of channeling time up to a maximum reduction of 30-60%.

Sleet Storm rune seals:
- seal E - Sleet Storm's radius is increased to 10 yards but AP cost is increased to 20-26.
- seal F - While channeling Sleet Storm you reflect 10-25% of all projectiles.
- seal G - While channeling Sleet Storm Fire damage taken is reduced by 40-80%.

I always said the game company to crack the problem of crafting and trading, i.e. making crafting viable, not bound, in a free trade system without it being a red flag to a bull for RMT/bots would surely be on to a winner. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see this become a reality in a game I will not mention, but basically there is no gold, no AH no binding and it would appear for now - no bot problem, bliss.
I fail to see your point. Currency items are easily bottable but for now it isn't lucrative to bot "there".
Phew, I finally read it all.

Why was this thread reported? Because of the caps?

Anyhow, it must have taken you a long, long time to write these ideas down. In general, I do like them. The only thing which doesn't seem that good to me is that runepower idea. In essence, it is a skill point investment system which bypasses XP gains and simply relies directly on monster kills. Just let Shen do his job of combining gems but introduce new gems and allow him to combine multiple gem types plus some other crating materials into jewels and trinkets as new types of socketables. Jewels and trinkets would have mostly predetermined affixes but their range would be quite wide so as to make good jewels/trinkets accessible but perfect ones elusive.

Instead of your runepower, I would propose a charm-like drop, let us call it "seals" which just like the charms would have a special storage space with very limited capacity (say 6 slots at level 60). These seals would drop randomly in the world with a much higher rate from bosses and slightly higher rate from elites.
Seals would only enhance skills. They could do it either by enhancing the base skill thus affecting all runes for that skill or by improving only a specific rune or a subset of runes. A skill could benefit at most from 3 such seals. Most seals would add utility to a specific skill/rune, not direct damage.

An example:
Ray of Frost seals
- seal A - Enemies affected by Ray of Frost have a 10-20% chance to get frozen (per cycle) for 2 seconds.
- seal B - Ray of Frost chills all targets within 5-10 yards of your primary target slowing them by 60% for 3 seconds.
- seal C - Ray of Frost's AP cost is reduced by 15% for every second of channeling time up to a maximum reduction of 30-60%.

Sleet Storm rune seals:
- seal E - Sleet Storm's radius is increased to 10 yards but AP cost is increased to 20-26.
- seal F - While channeling Sleet Storm you reflect 10-25% of all projectiles.
- seal G - While channeling Sleet Storm Fire damage taken is reduced by 40-80%.

I always said the game company to crack the problem of crafting and trading, i.e. making crafting viable, not bound, in a free trade system without it being a red flag to a bull for RMT/bots would surely be on to a winner. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see this become a reality in a game I will not mention, but basically there is no gold, no AH no binding and it would appear for now - no bot problem, bliss.
I fail to see your point. Currency items are easily bottable but for now it isn't lucrative to bot "there".


I doubt you read all of it but thanks anyway :P.

I really like your idea!

A few issues though:
How would you fight the "capping" of progression with this system? If the rolls only have a range of 10 or no range at all people would cap out very very fast on that system.
2nd issue is the diversity of the runes. It seems like you add "tiers" to runes. At the first tier you chose reduced costs, at the second tier you chose more aoe and so on. What about runes that don't work together with each other? Would this increase the diversity of the abilities if you allow the player to chose every specific benefit they want? It'll turn into a "make your own ability" type of customization pretty quickly i think (i don't think this would be necessarily a bad thing)
01/23/2013 07:07 AMPosted by ChangWu
POE!!!


What exactly would you like to see in D3?
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