Diablo® III

How It Went Terribly Wrong, Because They Listened To Us

I wanted to reply here, not to comment on the substance of the OP but on his writing style.

His grammar and sentence structure is woeful, confusing, and at times unreadable.

On more than a few occasions the OP takes several sentences to make a single point. If he'd have taken the time to be thoughtful in his writing then his post could have been over 50% shorter and with more meaning.

Honestly, there are moments in the OP where I have no idea what he's talking about.

For example:

We covered initially the direction or philosophy we wished to invoke in our player base, and a prime example we all agreed upon was the video shown below, showing the progression of the game we thought would be released.
We therefore identified that there was a philosophy of equal and a balanced progression, being able to enjoy the gameplay for its loot, which is the fundamental aspect of the reasoning to play.


Seems to me he's saying:

The video shown below is what we thought would be released. It was about loot, and the game looked balanced, which is what we wanted!

Can I please, please, please, beg people like the OP to pay attention to how they use language and try their best to keep it simple???
Edited by tooms#1103 on 1/23/2013 2:48 PM PST
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Many of my friends never played because they never wanted to learn how to use the Auction House. Who wants to learn to read prices and compare them? It's like going to a supermarket without any true price tags... and we're here to play a game.

So true.

The difference between WoW AH and D3 AH is what kind of goods they sell on it. On WoW there are minor items, and mostly commodities, and these 2 are related one to the other in terms that there is a primal matter and a finished product to sell, there relies the economy system. So the AH ain't essential to play the game, is just needed to excel in the game. In the other hand D3 AH is needed to play the game efficiency, in other words WoW ain't need to to fully archive the full content of the game, and here you can't progress if you don't use the AH often. That shouldn't be the case IMO.
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01/23/2013 02:54 PMPosted by Sol
Any particular word you are having trouble with understanding? Like, philosophy, progression, identified, equal, balanced, fundamental, aspect? Because those are as far as it gets in terms of complexity... not very hard, or perhaps just for a little more mature conversations than everyone is used to. But nonetheless you figured the correct meaning and context from what you read, great job on your part.


Read: http://www.ourcivilisation.com/decline/orwell1.htm
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The game right now feels like half of the time playing a sequel of Diablo and the other half some sort of SimCity, were I have to do "administrative" things that ain't fun.

Don't get me wrong, could be fun if we had better tools. But the AH window is horrible, I mean if the game was heavly designed around it should have at least the same quantity of functions as SC2 map editor.
Edited by Tectonic#1786 on 1/23/2013 3:02 PM PST
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The big issue with items in Diablo 3 are the random stats on the items that make a lot of items worthless or boring but in Diablo 2 the Uniques our legendary s had set stats but random stat bonuses that kept items fun to find and worth using but still different every time you found them.
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01/23/2013 03:00 PMPosted by Duragan
The big issue with items in Diablo 3 are the random stats on the items that make a lot of items worthless or boring but in Diablo 2 the Uniques our legendary s had set stats but random stat bonuses that kept items fun to find and worth using but still different every time you found them.


There were plenty of options while gearing a hero, for example multiple legendaries were good for the same class, and many classes could really benefit from the same item with same stats. Now the items are so specific that only 1 type of hero could use it.
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I don't, but I wish I did. How can Diablo sustain such a system, when it is in competition with other games that have a balanced system unlike this? People will only leave after finding out the game wasn't worth continually playing unless you invested more money than you paid for the game with, unless you're content with forever farming slowly, endlessly, and never beating the game; the game becomes a grind when it's not fun, I should look forward to playing the game rather than looking forward to when I'm lucky.


Exactly how i feel....have quit because it just didnt seem worth my time but still wish that it blew away D2 or moves towards that direction. I just wish everyone would quit filling blizzards pockets and force them to fix their mistakes. They wont get another penny from me until this is fixed.
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Good post OP, I'm impressed. Also most of the reactions are very good.

I have also another point which I think is open for a LOT of improvement:

Many people have said that they want gambling from D2 back. This in itself is very funny because, in theory, we have a much better system for that now: crafting.

However: crafting in D3 is completely not rewarding, not at all. And this is strange because it has the gambling aspect and more. I've gotten from Greed in D2 many legendaries, including a few SoJ's, it was absolutely great! But nowhere in D3 have I felt this same emotion, which is a shame.

In 1.07 the droprate of plans is increased by 400%, which is a good start. But one thing also happens now, similar as the OP points: they are going the wrong way!

- First of all: Bind on Account is a terrible idea, I really don't get it because of the fact that by crafting a good item which you really can use and then can sell is a much better idea. There is still only a small chance an item will roll really good, which creates the gambling aspect. If you can even sell it afterward you make a decent profit and you had FUN doing so and therefore will do it again: et voilá: a very effective goldsink!
- And then the new recipes......I mean: I don't get it, I really don't. Why on earth would we want new recipes for a crafting system which doesn't work? Why the improved stats on the new recipes? Why not make the current recipes better? Give them a buff!!!!? Make it interesting for us again!!! Make it feel like the gambling from D2!!! Please?
- Same goes for the new reagent: Demonic Essence. Why? What's wrong with Brimstones? Nobody's using them anyway because of the fact that crafting is bad.

What I am trying to say: this is not the answer to the crafting problem, these canges in 1.07. You should make the current recipes better, Okay: there is maybe 1 exception: the Helm of Command, granted. But the BIS items cannot be crafted, which is a true shame because then, even if you don't have all the gold in the world, you can be as good as anybody, it may take a while but still: you have a chance; gambling.

However: I do realize this should not be extremely easy, otherwise the AH will be flooded. So what I was thinking: make the current recipes better, give them a boost in stats and some interesting 'unique' affixes, upgrade them in other words, make them interesting. The current RNG (of which I truly believe is not rigged but just performing under the conditions set by the bad itemization in D3) can stay. But then you must be guaranteed for the items you craft that there will be a certain affix, or affixes, you defninately get and which CAN be higher than anything you find (and a note: this is the same thing Blizz is doing NOW with the new recipes) then you can indeed do a more 'calculated' gamble which also makes it more interesting imo. There is still a very, very small chance the other affixes will roll as you want, but still, because of that certain stat it has indeed a higer chance of being usefull and therefore you are likely to try it again.

Of course, but this is something I'm still debating, you can in exchange increase the resource cost for crafting, then you would still need to farm a lot to get the required resources but you can get a good reward for it. I would say: lose the Demonic Essences, use more Brimstones!

It's a shame, really, the crafting system has so much potential, but it isn't used......

I hope I have made my point clear, I'm of course open for discussion.

TL;DR: Do not make new recipes and crafting materials (as in patch 1.07) but IMPROVE the current crafting system.
Edited by Beast#2781 on 1/23/2013 3:50 PM PST
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Excellent read!
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This post is a good read with a lot of great feedback and I appreciate you putting it together. Thanks! While there are other points in the original post, I wanted to briefly talk about items since it’s the big one.

We know that (for many players) it’s much more rewarding to gear up from items that you find while playing normally than it is to necessarily go through Auction House, and we’re working to make improvements in that area. There are a lot of ways we could attempt to reach that goal, and choosing the best one(s) to go with is not always a fast process. I want to encourage you all to continue to post your thoughts on the subject and I promise we will keep reading and relaying them.


It almost feels like the developers are trying to get the consumers of this product to fix these issues for them by suggesting things that need to be done to bring the game back. Honestly if you follow this direction you will completely fail. If theres something I have learned from working in the consumer products industry it is that consumers wont be able to tell you exactly what they want or how to achieve it even if you ask them directly in a focus group. This separates good developers of products from bad ones.....the real trick is being able to listen to criticism and come up with a design solution that fixes the ROOT CAUSE of the problem while not causing any additional side effects (FMEA?) The more I see posts like this asking for specific fixes from the consumers utilizing the product the more I lose hope in your development process.

An example ...a company makes a sweater and holds a focus group to ask consumers if it was warm enough and how they think the developers can make it warmer if it wasnt.....People show up to the focus groups and say it wasnt warm because it needs to be thicker. (What do they know...these people are consumers and not the product designers) A good product developer looks at the root cause of the problem and says its not the thickness causing it to be cold but the material is too porous and is letting too much cold air through. To solve the problem they change the material and the process of stitching but do not increase the thickness of the sweater. This solves the problem and does not create another issue that interferes with the intended use. If the developers would have listened to the consumer they would have ended up making a sweater that the wearer would have seen as uncomfortable and hard to move in ....creating another potentially larger problem.
Edited by DemonPowDuh#1761 on 1/23/2013 4:02 PM PST
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Apologies for this being off-topic, but wanted to post here since this is currently the top rated thread atm.

Yesterday there was a post entitled "amulet duping happening right now" which detailed quite thoroughly that there were 9 extremely high end tal rasha ammys with the exact same stats siting on the AH that had all been posted within 1 hour of each other. It received enough responses that it had made its way up to second on the popular topics list, and many of the responses went on to document other obviously dupped items that were also currently on the AH.

Not surprisingly, even though many posts asked for it, there was no response from a blue, even to let anyone know that they were aware of these particular duped items or that the info. had been passed on to the proper channels (which is essentially one of their main functions).

I know most of us understand duping has been going on since day 1, but that's not why I'm writing this.

I logged off at about 7pm PST last night and the topic was sitting there at #2.

I log on right now less then 24 hours later and it is gone.

Vanished.

As if it had never existed.

I could care less about "game fairness" (this game is completely pay to win and will always be so, and though I would never buy anything off the rmah myself I get that others will and there is nothing that can be done about). But given that this game involves the potential gain/loss of real money that is directly influenced by something like items (be it ammys gems or whatever) being duplicated, am I the only one who feels a bit weird about a post like that just gestapo-like disappearing?

What's going on here?
Edited by HODOR#1781 on 1/23/2013 4:07 PM PST
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This post is a good read with a lot of great feedback and I appreciate you putting it together. Thanks! While there are other points in the original post, I wanted to briefly talk about items since it’s the big one.

We know that (for many players) it’s much more rewarding to gear up from items that you find while playing normally than it is to necessarily go through Auction House, and we’re working to make improvements in that area. There are a lot of ways we could attempt to reach that goal, and choosing the best one(s) to go with is not always a fast process. I want to encourage you all to continue to post your thoughts on the subject and I promise we will keep reading and relaying them.


This is a simple fix...get rid of the auction houses. They don't belong in the Diablo realm.
How many more times can this be said before someone over there gets the point? The AH is what killed this game for the majority of the player base. It was a bad idea from the get go. Just admit it and put an end to the non-sense.
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This post is a good read with a lot of great feedback and I appreciate you putting it together. Thanks! While there are other points in the original post, I wanted to briefly talk about items since it’s the big one.

We know that (for many players) it’s much more rewarding to gear up from items that you find while playing normally than it is to necessarily go through Auction House, and we’re working to make improvements in that area. There are a lot of ways we could attempt to reach that goal, and choosing the best one(s) to go with is not always a fast process. I want to encourage you all to continue to post your thoughts on the subject and I promise we will keep reading and relaying them.


Does the RMAH hinder that process, or does the dev team do things regardless of it?

I know from the IAS nerf that they did it regardless. However, as it is, does it?

Also, it's the ability to feel that Diablo community. Chat lobby and being able to create games and see created games and join those would really help. Imo, the towns are not utilized how they should be. It should have the open world feel where it doesnt take a brief period to change areas. All of the towns in diablo 2 didnt need this.
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I would first off like to thanks you SOL for making such a FANTASTIC thread!!!!

Many endorsements to you :)

You really nailed the point and then you doubled it and for that I am thankful /jke

For real though, a really great thread, you really pressed on the stuff I felt where important and i have had thought of but never known how to express and that makes you awesome:)

And got encouraging feedback from the minds behind the project

01/22/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Grimiku
We know that (for many players) it’s much more rewarding to gear up from items that you find while playing normally than it is to necessarily go through Auction House, and we’re working to make improvements in that area. There are a lot of ways we could attempt to reach that goal, and choosing the best one(s) to go with is not always a fast process. I want to encourage you all to continue to post your thoughts on the subject and I promise we will keep reading and relaying them.
Edited by Sturenorth#2895 on 1/23/2013 4:08 PM PST
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I agree with the original post 100%

I hate to admit this, as I was super excited to see the RMAH. But it's changed the way loot is in the game almost to the point where you aren't playing the game to find gear for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I want the AH to stay, as I know it can exist with the game harmoniously. But where it's at, at the moment, is definitely not what we want. You know loot is trash before you even find it, yet even if it was good you're going to try and sell it... yet it doesn't sell (no I am not trying to sell trash) so whats the point? And if you buy it you run into the same problem, "what's the point?" I still kind of get excited when I see a legendary drop, but then I ID it and am instantly reminded that "RNG is RNG". Fact: loot is 99.9% junk.

What first irked me was the art style once I got the game. Watching those early videos got me super excited for the game with the level of art that was incorporated into the landscape. But when you play through the whole game you get no sense of terror anywhere in the world. It's more like you are fighting monsters/aliens in an RTS. Diablo was dark, muted and dreary, and finding an item with any color-value was exciting, with each ascending color being much more exciting.

Another thing that bothers me with fighting, even though it's action packed... The monster affixes reflect nothing from the Diablo universe. Spinning beams of energy or enemies that shoot mortars make no sense. It's also usually so fast that it stops becoming exciting. In diablo II I was scared to try and kill my first zombie in a new difficulty having the feeling like I was going to get owned. But I knew that if I leveled eventually, or found a drop, that it would almost definitely improve my character and it would then be worth it.

I also can't say enough how vital it was to have a chat interface. Seeing your fellow gamers characaters below the chat, and having a window with a list of games where the creator had a specific part of the game in mind for play (with up to 8 people) is vitally important. But if I want to join an open game and my friends aren't on, who knows what the rest of the people in the game are doing or want to do? Getting a game together now is a pain, takes time, and it's more of a crutch when you play together anyway. Diablo is not a game where, at end game, you should be randomly joining open games. Everyone NEEDS to know what the game is going to be for before joining. D3 doesn't have the game window, yet the game window was the very thing that made Diablo enjoyable at end game. It made it fun. F-U-N.

But back to the art... Probably the most upsetting thing to me about the game, besides destroying the social aspects of the game, was the abandonment of the way gear use to look, yet keeping the old style in the icons of the items that drop. We all look like power rangers or the things that they fight, we should look like we are wearing realistic armor. D2 sets all looked like complete suits of armor. It was badass. I actually made a post about the armor looking like crap during the D3 beta, but that post is long gone. I was assured that Blizzard's artists had the fans in mind. Example, look at the icon art for IK gloves. Now look at them on your Barb.

I was originally in the group of people that thought you should increase drop rates and make better stats harder to roll, in order to help items on the AH maintain their value. That is obviously the worst answer for the game.

I think drops should be more rare, but most items you find should be usable and improve your character. Also, MP levels SHOULD gear you for the next MP level. Yet I can't tell you how many times I've run through the game and not found anything worth putting on my character. I KNOW that many people say the game ends at 60, well guess what, they made paragon levels to REFLECT the time it took in D2 to reach the level cap... but if you go through that amount of time not progressing and doing the same garbage over and over again it stops becoming fun. Games are for fun. Progress is fun. Games should have progression. The only reason I have the gear I do now is because I've picked up enough gold and vendored trash enough times to buy a few things. But what's the point of you're not having fun?

In short...
Items should be exciting, they are less exciting than ever.
Socially speaking, the game has been snuffed.
The game isn't rewarding, therefore it's not fun
...and I want my old Diablo back.
Edited by KeeperOfKale#1551 on 1/23/2013 4:59 PM PST
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    In-House Auction Chat eliminates flippers/snipers/scammers

Currently, the Auction House is still an experiment in progress, it has shown both signs of success and failure. The main aspect of failure comes with the large scale of useless goods coming from the loot table, however, there are many fundamental flaws in this system which many players that are knowledgeable can take advantage of the new players.

The system is disjointed, before the Auction House, you had to chat in-game with players and barter for items you wanted. But with the chat system a separate thing to the Auction House window, it disintegrates the personal interaction between the buyer and the seller, which allows for potential miscommunication, the key to scamming or an imbalanced trade forum.

If players were given a combined ability to chat with players that are also using the Auction House interface, they can price check, look for items, advertise their offers on the Auction House with more ease and essentially add a healthy dose of player interaction through playing the Auction House. This is the next step I believe they need to take in order to maximize the Auction House's potential, also patching up points that players can take advantage of, creating a balanced system.

This feature eliminates those points, if no player posted an item for the wrong price and there was a virtual environment for players to properly investigate their item of interest whether it be their item or one they want, snipers and flippers would generally not exist because everything is sold at a fair price.

Note that all of these tools are available to us within the Auction House to be perfectly safe and never be taken advantage of. But as I have stated, the information you must learn is scattered in a disjointed manner. Many of us have fallen or made our mistakes and learned from them, many of us were careful and never made mistakes, but even so, eliminating the potential for mistakes is what should eventually happen.

In fact the truth is, the system is so horribly dysfunctional, that the idea of this system has become to take advantage of new players, resulting in pretty much exactly what the player base's drop. This is due to the fact that players that are new need to learn to sell and buy items, they do it wrong initially, immediately for the experienced people to take advantage of them, essentially stealing and enslaving the general public of new players, to farm for them, win a jackpot but not even know it, and give the money to the people that know how to take advantage of the system.

Many people could make their first and only mistake, quitting right afterwards. But honestly, how could you even know you made a mistake if you never knew you sold it for the wrong price? Only until you try and resell your item and lose half of your wealth or something, or see your old item put back up for a higher price.

Many of my friends never played because they never wanted to learn how to use the Auction House. Who wants to learn to read prices and compare them? It's like going to a supermarket without any true price tags... and we're here to play a game.

With a balanced system items will be quickly influxed in and out of the system, as they are fairly priced, there can be a range for bartering and of course the point of an auction itself.


I completely disagree with this section. Are you seriously saying that the old chat/barter system is easier to use for new players?

Think back to pre-Auction House, really. There was online websites/forums that posted "Legendary/UNID Price Guides" that gave approximate values for the main items in SOJ ranges. But how reliable was that? I'll be honest....I was a flipper in D2. I took advantage of people that couldn't use price guides to value their legit damage/vita charms. I'd buy them cheap off of people that didn't know what they had. I would scour the forums/channels/trade games for these specific charms and basically rob people blind with paying them with basic UNID legendaries that they were more familiar with the value of.

All these years later, it hasn't changed much. The Trade channel in Diablo 3 is a stomping ground for all the scammers pawning off fake UNIDs, stack glitches, and leaving off zeros. At least in the Auction House you're getting a systematically fair deal as long as you aren't a complete idiot.

Personally, I like the idea of the Auction House. But it can be better. Think about this.....

The Auction House gives you a chance to view items that are identical/similar to yours to help determine an estimate of what your item is worth at this moment. The commodities section is actually an excellent start. It provides some, even though very little, context as to what similar gems/mats to yours have sold for. THAT is how a good market should work.

As far as weapons and armor goes, its not possible to account for all combinations of stats, but the "search for similar items" is a good start. Any Joe Schmo that can click a search button and make some comparisons by using filters can pretty quickly make some appraisal decisions.

Let's not take a big step backwards here and seriously suggest that the AH isn't the future. Otherwise, i'll be making a post referencing this one called How It Went Terribly Wrong, Because They Listened To YOU.
Edited by Didley#1646 on 1/23/2013 4:20 PM PST
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    In-House Auction Chat eliminates flippers/snipers/scammers

Currently, the Auction House is still an experiment in progress, it has shown both signs of success and failure. The main aspect of failure comes with the large scale of useless goods coming from the loot table, however, there are many fundamental flaws in this system which many players that are knowledgeable can take advantage of the new players.

The system is disjointed, before the Auction House, you had to chat in-game with players and barter for items you wanted. But with the chat system a separate thing to the Auction House window, it disintegrates the personal interaction between the buyer and the seller, which allows for potential miscommunication, the key to scamming or an imbalanced trade forum.

If players were given a combined ability to chat with players that are also using the Auction House interface, they can price check, look for items, advertise their offers on the Auction House with more ease and essentially add a healthy dose of player interaction through playing the Auction House. This is the next step I believe they need to take in order to maximize the Auction House's potential, also patching up points that players can take advantage of, creating a balanced system.

This feature eliminates those points, if no player posted an item for the wrong price and there was a virtual environment for players to properly investigate their item of interest whether it be their item or one they want, snipers and flippers would generally not exist because everything is sold at a fair price.

Note that all of these tools are available to us within the Auction House to be perfectly safe and never be taken advantage of. But as I have stated, the information you must learn is scattered in a disjointed manner. Many of us have fallen or made our mistakes and learned from them, many of us were careful and never made mistakes, but even so, eliminating the potential for mistakes is what should eventually happen.

In fact the truth is, the system is so horribly dysfunctional, that the idea of this system has become to take advantage of new players, resulting in pretty much exactly what the player base's drop. This is due to the fact that players that are new need to learn to sell and buy items, they do it wrong initially, immediately for the experienced people to take advantage of them, essentially stealing and enslaving the general public of new players, to farm for them, win a jackpot but not even know it, and give the money to the people that know how to take advantage of the system.

Many people could make their first and only mistake, quitting right afterwards. But honestly, how could you even know you made a mistake if you never knew you sold it for the wrong price? Only until you try and resell your item and lose half of your wealth or something, or see your old item put back up for a higher price.

Many of my friends never played because they never wanted to learn how to use the Auction House. Who wants to learn to read prices and compare them? It's like going to a supermarket without any true price tags... and we're here to play a game.

With a balanced system items will be quickly influxed in and out of the system, as they are fairly priced, there can be a range for bartering and of course the point of an auction itself.


I completely disagree with this section. Are you seriously saying that the old chat/barter system is easier to use for new players?

Think back to pre-Auction House, really. There was online websites/forums that posted "Legendary/UNID Price Guides" that gave approximate values for the main items in SOJ ranges. But how reliable was that? I'll be honest....I was a flipper in D2. I took advantage of people that couldn't use price guides to value their legit damage/vita charms. I'd buy them cheap off of people that didn't know what they had. I would scour the forums/channels/trade games for these specific charms and basically rob people blind with paying them with basic UNID legendaries that they were more familiar with the value of.

All these years later, it hasn't changed much. The Trade channel in Diablo 3 is a stomping ground for all the scammers pawning off fake UNIDs, stack glitches, and leaving off zeros. At least in the Auction House you're getting a systematically fair deal as long as you aren't a complete idiot.

Personally, I like the idea of the Auction House. But it can be better. Think about this.....

The Auction House gives you a chance to view items that are identical/similar to yours to help determine an estimate of what your item is worth at this moment. The commodities section is actually an excellent start. It provides some, even though very little, context as to what similar gems/mats to yours have sold for. THAT is how a good market should work.

As far as weapons and armor goes, its not possible to account for all combinations of stats, but the "search for similar items" is a good start. Any Joe Schmo that can click a search button and make some comparisons by using filters can pretty quickly make some appraisal decisions.

Let's not take a big step backwards here and seriously suggest that the AH isn't the future. Otherwise, i'll be making a post referencing this one called How It Went Terribly Wrong, Because They Listened To YOU.


Which is why I honestly think,and +1 to you btw ;), - that those wishing to get rid of the AH are HOPING for it possibly, so that they can easier scam people. Greed looms large, obviously, and it has no prejudice.

That's just a suggestion, given that the AH most certainly gives you a needed boost in the right direction to verify worth. To suggest otherwise, is to place you firmly in the TROLL department, and everyone knows it, or should know it.

If as one poster suggested earlier, that the game was only meant to allow easier progression via lot, UP to Pllvl 60, then all bets are off on loot, but that isn't to say drops could be better and make it a bit easier for those desiring to farm instead of AH.

Given the STEEP price of some things, that is the ONLY fair way to go, assuming a great deal of people are unhappy about loot . I'm not unhappy, but Im starting to see that progressing much past MPx without a LOT more DMG, is going to be impossible major. I can do MP0 with little stress, but even 1 starts to get whack,,,2 is no thanks atm, and balancing gear to get a HIGHER DMG lvl, is almost impossible in keeping some degree of health, and we all know they both go hand in hand in avoiding expensive death ;) ( though occasional death isn't very expensive at all)
Edited by cajunctionAI#1755 on 1/23/2013 4:34 PM PST
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