Diablo® III

How It Went Terribly Wrong, Because They Listened To Us

It is not because they listened to us. The problem is that they listened to focus groups and their beta testers... a populace which was composed not of Diablo fans, but fans of Blizzard games in general.

So in essence you have people who are not fans of Action Fantasy games, who are now critiquing a game of that genre, giving feedback on what they don't like.

This is a trend that happens a lot in the game industry, game studios (especially ones with shareholders) try to make a game with more "mass appeal" and it ends up watering down a franchise.

Its how you go from Sim City 1-4 to Sim City Societies.
Its how you go from Final Fantasy 1-12 to FF13.
Its how you go from Diablo 1& 2 to Diablo 3.
And at the risk of starting a flame war, its how you go from Everquest to WOW. ( I know they are not the same company, but the principle is the same. WOW is the easy-mode of EQ).

I'm sure there are many more examples out there, but those are a few that readily come to mind.

The trend is to cater to casual gamers over die hard fans.

Sad but... it's the nature of things.

DT
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Pro's
Great looking game, interactive world, wonderful animations, stable game client, well developed game interface, I think the mechanics of the game were well thought out.

Con's
lack findable upgrades, no low lvl sets :/, Crafting is not as helpful as it should be, No gambling, Having to reset quests to redo content, Game is to linear,

I find having to buy equipment from the ah to progress is a game killer for me. As has been said many many times in this thread. I really find no fun in this.

Lvling is part of the fun of playing the game why make it so mechanical? Why not have a low lvl green fall to make game more exciting? I really miss the point of not having this.

Any way i well still play from time to time but the thrill of the game is not there. Sorry
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01/21/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Sol
And you are also right when you say they clearly didn't do enough testing on their own. Like I just posted about the PTR.


Not that they wouldn't, but they couldn't do enough testing on their own.

If you have seen the trailer posted by OP, you'll see that the gist of the game is very complete.
How long do you think that they had spent in making that trailer and a working version of that game?

Comparison, the D3 as of now is like an overhaul, rework, remake, reconstruct, revamp whatever repeat verb you want to use.These takes time(wasted time), and in order to keep the end of the bargain which was the launch date, they will need to cut down on something. QC is henceforth passed to the consumer side and they can improve along the way. This move is the wisest method after a reset, resources wise.

No use crying over spilled milk, since the vision of the lead is dulled due to inexperience in this particular genre, they assume that re-doing might fix the game. If D3 is a brand new kind, then JW will definitely be the person to take the lead, since there're nothing 'better' to compare with.

A new series that have to stand out/differentiate, and is restricted with the fundamentals of predecessor, it is a very huge risk to undertake when exploring into uncharted areas. One wrong step will blow off the legs. Unless the leader is capable of surviving a chain of mines exploding, he may then charge through the field absorbing all impact and fix the aftermath.

Shigeru Miyamoto.:

"We don't pay a whole lot of attention to the Internet until people have played the game - then we pay a lot of attention to whether people liked it. We read through it and see it, but we don't take it into consideration. ... [The Internet] is not going to dictate the direction of where the game goes."

A delayed game is eventually good; a bad game is bad forever.

http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto/quotes
Edited by HachiKumo#6695 on 1/28/2013 7:22 PM PST
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im going to say what everyone either does not want to say or is oblivious too

The only reason Diablo 2 was successful was because of mostly duping and also on a lower level botting. Since diablo 3 has pretty much (although not altogether) cracked down on it is affecting players.

Sorry but that is why most people cant get good gear, you never could in diablo2 until people started duping high runes so people could start rolling good gear. it was a cheap way to get the best gear in the game and if you didnt roll it perfect, meh hel rune and go again.

Diablo 3 is pretty much even if you get the piece you want to drop you then have too many chances of not getting the stats you want.

I guess what i'm trying to say is the best gear in diablo 3 and the best gear in diablo 2 are so much different in terms of getting it, it is honestly a joke.

like it or dont, thats how it is
Not really it at all, but nice fail! D2 allows a character to own without even having gear on, in D3 all your DPS is dependent on the gear.

There's a big reason D2 expansion servers are still live and D3 diehards will never be able to understand it. If it aint broke then it don't need fixin!


kid, do you really think people would still be playing diablo 2 if dupes were not around? I played for 6 years and i found 4 high runes in all that time

Duping is what made diablo 2 easy for people to play. Show me 1 person that still plays diablo 2 LOD without a runeword
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Not really it at all, but nice fail! D2 allows a character to own without even having gear on, in D3 all your DPS is dependent on the gear.

There's a big reason D2 expansion servers are still live and D3 diehards will never be able to understand it. If it aint broke then it don't need fixin!


kid, do you really think people would still be playing diablo 2 if dupes were not around? I played for 6 years and i found 4 high runes in all that time

Duping is what made diablo 2 easy for people to play. Show me 1 person that still plays diablo 2 LOD without a runeword


Diablo 2 was not big simply because of duping, if you truly believe that I think you have got a few aspects of the game to consider, such as, gameplay, graphics, sound, story telling, diverse character and even more diverse character customization.

I still return to Diablo 2 simply because I find the many ``aspects`` of the game appealing.

Simply generalizing with anecdotal evidence ( I found diablo 2 most appealing because of duping eg everyone else must be doing the same no matter I got no real evidence of it) won´t do

EDIT: Grammar
Edited by Sturenorth#2895 on 1/29/2013 1:34 AM PST
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ill say back in the day people were scared of cars now we all drive em...
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wow! what a great post.

Blizzard

if you've ever liked your customer

then give this man a voice in your D3 team !!!!!!
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01/27/2013 02:01 AMPosted by Guy
The one thing worse than no good items after a day of playing is no good items despite getting over a thousand rares to drop during that time.


This.
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Posted by Guy
The one thing worse than no good items after a day of playing is no good items despite getting over a thousand rares to drop during that time.


They definitely should add some sort of various goals to the game to prevent this type of feeling.
Adding stuff for players to be immersed to into game would be nice.
=> Putting something like "secrets" to be discovered by community would be more than good enough to make players get immersed. And by community, I really mean the whole community, so it's not supposed to be something that is solvable within days or weeks, and of course it should provide enough reward (satisfaction, hidden story, or anything useful, not necessarily item).
Ex. Gathering certain items (can be circulated through AH, very rare/ usually neglected, with unknown use), and doing some prerequisite will let you reveal something.
Ex2. Black Rock Ledger is a nice example, up until now, there are some who still believe that it could be used in some ways, though most of the community had given up (given how current D3 is designed, they expect nothing out of this).

Do note that: Achievement system can't complete this role.

==============

Getting thousands of useless rares does feel like bringing down the quality of rares.

When Diablo 3 first start, pretty much rares seems very valuable (since it is really rare, and most of them are worth it), if possible I would like to keep that feeling. And obviously legendary should be "LEGEND". I don't mid if both rare and Legendary drop at drastically reduced rate, as long as they keep quality.
Edited by NuEloS#1547 on 1/30/2013 4:06 PM PST
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The trend is to cater to casual gamers over die hard fans.

Sad but... it's the nature of things.

DT


I wish more people got this line. Its what hundreds of us keep saying: We hate the fact that D3 is so bad, it made us quit. Still looking for a reason to get back.
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TL;DR: Casual gamers want everything handed to them so they can be top players and this is what ruined Diablo 3. I couldn't agree more. Shame on Blizzard for giving in to the masses and shame on the masses for taking away the things that made hardcore Diablo players hardcore.

I truly wish this game was back in 1.02 when Inferno was damn near impossible for most classes. That was the closest thing to challenging Diablo 3.
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01/24/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Grimiku
I extended the posting limit in this thread, and wanted to let you all know that we have been reading your suggestions. A lot of them are really good and we appreciate it.


Will you add the font from d1 and d2 (for dropped items, npc names, dmg numbers, etc.) as at least a optional choice for players that enjoyed it?

For me (and probably many others) the diablo font was a iconic aesthetic that more or less gave the game a very distinct, unique look and feel. The current arial font just seems out of place.
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There have been posts in this thread stating that players don't really know what the vision is/was for Diablo 3. I was visiting a fan site today and I came across the 7 pillars of design for Diablo 3. Jay wilson says that the game was based around Approachability, Powerful Heroes, Endless Re-playability, Great Item Game, Customization, and Cooperative Multiplayer.

Approachability: You guys got this one for sure. The game is so approachable it feels like it requires 0 thought. When I play an rpg of any kind, I want to think about how I am going to do things, even when I am not sitting in front of my PC. I want to spend time planning my character out, thinking about what gear to use, what stats I want, and etc. You made the game too approachable. If the game is marketed towards adults, why does it feel like I'm playing something designed for children?

Powerful Heroes: This one is kind of hit or miss. On the one hand, it is certainly possible to feel powerful in this game, when your cooldown abilities are in effect and you are mowing through hordes of demons. But then again, there are problems that directly make you feel like your character is not only weak, but stupid too.

It bothers me when I die because I attempted to use a skill, but the server lag makes my character wait a half second before using diamond skin. I used the ability, darn it, but my character simply didn't do anything. It bothers me when I run out of archon form, and immediately run into a pack of fast, vortex, molten, illusionist enemies and feel like I need to run away or get eaten.

I don't feel that having such long cooldowns in a game that feels very "arcade" is a good choice. It forces players to feel weak when their abilities are on cooldown. I would rather have my character be "strong" all the time, rather than godlike one minute, and pathetic the next.

Also, potion cooldowns have got to go. Or at least make my wizard stop saying "WHY WOULD I DO THAT LOL" when I tell him to drink a potion while six 15 foot tall demons are having their way with him.

Endless Re-playability: There is virtually no re-playability in this game, aside from making a normal and hardcore variation of the same class. None. There are no character building choices to make (be honest, you can customize your FOLLOWER more than your character) aside from gear. There is not a single legitimate reason to replay Diablo 3, because of the character customization aspect. What happened to this design pillar? It feels like it must have been behind the other pillars or something, because it didn't really make it into the game.

Great Item Game: As many have said, the itemization system in Diablo 3 leaves much to be desired. I personally feel that it really comes down to certain stats being mandatory, while almost all other stats are so not desired that their appearance on a piece of gear makes that piece of gear worthless. Everybody seeks exactly the same stats (with the primary stat varying between classes).

Couple that with the very high odds that you will not find anything of use in thousands of drops, and the desire to farm at all goes away. Really the only item that drops that matters at all is gold. 99.999% of drops (at least) are worthless. the only items you can really hunt with any consistency are the ones you don't equip, like gems, tomes of secrets, and gold.

I would love to feel that the item I want is just around the corner, but the item rolls are just way way too random. There are no drop tables, it is impossible to try and find a specific item. You just go and go and go, with no real goal that you can set for yourself, other than gold/hr. I don't think this is a great item game, and given that items are probably the #1 complaint in D3, since it's release, I'm not in the minority.

Customization: To me, there is none. It can be said that you pick what skills you want to use, and equip whatever items you want, but I don't really consider that customization. When I think customization, I think that when I am max level, my character will be different from someone else's of the same class. This is simply not the case. They can pick the same skills as me on demand, our stats naked are identical, and be real, we probably were using the same skills anyway.

Please bring back skill point and stat point allocation. I know you think it's a dated design, but I think you're wrong. I said earlier that I want to think about this game when I am not playing it. That is achieved by creating true build diversity, where the skills that I pick as I am leveling up dictate the items I should use. Currently it is at best the other way around, and at worst simply not present at all. There is no reason for me to plan anything in this game because there is nothing to plan.

I don't want to play "THE Wizard" I want to play "MY Wizard".

Cooperative Multiplayer: Many players don't see a reason to play in a group setting. I don't see a reason to play in a group setting. It would be more fun, but it would also be less efficient, and less efficient in a game where grinding loot is incredibly inefficient already is not an attractive choice.

I don't have much to say about multiplayer, as i haven't done much of it. It isn't an attractive choice, I don't really have any suggestions to make it more attractive, but I do feel that the mark was missed here too. Maybe increase the odds of legendary drops for each player in the game? I don't know.

Conclusion: Each of these pillars is a good idea, but many of them clash with each other in their current form. There is no replayability because there is no customization, there is no customization because the game needs to be absurdly approachable, and the idea of having powerful heroes fights itself with long cooldowns and is also hindered by the high difficulty of finding anything worth using.

It feels like the pillars are more knocking each other down than supporting the game as a whole. Some of the design pillars seem to be ignored completely, and some (one, really, approachability) seem to be the entire focus of the game.

Hope this was constructive in some way. I don't like this game, but I really want to.

Edit: I forgot to mention the seventh pillar "strong setting", which I guess is there.
Edited by MrSnaps#1394 on 2/1/2013 1:01 AM PST
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The one thing I keep getting disappointed with is how little control I have over the progression of my character, both in terms of my ability to actively upgrade my character's affix values/stats and my ability to choose how I upgrade. There is no actively upgrading and there are so few choices afforded to me I literally feel like a passive member to my character's progression so much so even when I do upgrade it feels almost hollow due to it not being a result of my 'work' but rather my getting lucky. I got a multi-million skorn and set chest piece to drop which allowed me to gear up from MP5 to being able to do MP9 without dying and it feels hollow. I'd much rather be able to some how actively upgrade my gear in a way I choose to become more powerful or somehow make a quirky build become viable than just randomly be awarded indirect upgrades, that is to say; get item - can't use it - sell it - get item I can use I feel like I didn't 'work' for. It's kind of funny, I didn't know the game was like that until about PL5 or so when I finally discovered the WW build for my barb and also finally broke down and used the AH. TBH I wish I'd never found out about WW or ever used the AH. I couldn't farm passed MP3 but my dumb little HotA smash with rend ravage build felt like mine. I had used a balanced sword and board build up until I found out about WW. Once I did find out about it I was immediately able to solo up to MP5 with just changing my build. Now it feels silly and unviable to go back to my old build but the damned thing is I don't like WW, it's boring, but due to the pure tedium and time the game takes I would be giving up literally hundreds of hours and several MP points of progress if I went back to my old build. And then there is the Hellfire ring... How did that make it past PTR? What a wasted opportunity for some real character progression. Sooooooooooo....ooooo...ooo.o tedious to build just to keep waiting for that dumb trifecta with either vit or AR just like everybody else that plays this game wants. You might as well have just given us a trifecta ring with the fixed main stat and our choice of the fourth affix, through the design of the game you've already made that choice for us so why not just give it to us. Sorry, I've turned this into a bit of a rant but honestly it feels good to vent a little lol. Anyway, I really enjoyed the game before I discovered WW build and used the AH. Now I find it more and more difficult to not get discouraged. It's dumb, this is just a game yet I feel disproportionally vested in it. I wish it were something it simply isn't and yet I can't help but find myself disappointed by that fact even though logically I know I shouldn't be lol.
Edited by GeorgAnatoly#1692 on 2/1/2013 1:47 AM PST
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02/01/2013 01:44 AMPosted by GeorgAnatoly
The one thing I keep getting disappointed with is how little control I have over the progression of my character, both in terms of my ability to actively upgrade my character's affix values/stats and my ability to choose how I upgrade. There is no actively upgrading and there are so few choices afforded to me I literally feel like a passive member to my character's progression so much so even when I do upgrade it feels almost hollow due to it not being a result of my 'work' but rather my getting lucky. I got a multi-million skorn and set chest piece to drop which allowed me to gear up from MP5 to being able to do MP9 without dying and it feels hollow. I'd much rather be able to some how actively upgrade my gear in a way I choose to become more powerful or somehow make a quirky build become viable than just randomly be awarded indirect upgrades, that is to say; get item - can't use it - sell it - get item I can use I feel like I didn't 'work' for. It's kind of funny, I didn't know the game was like that until about PL5 or so when I finally discovered the WW build for my barb and also finally broke down and used the AH. TBH I wish I'd never found out about WW or ever used the AH. I couldn't farm passed MP3 but my dumb little HotA smash with rend ravage build felt like mine. I had used a balanced sword and board build up until I found out about WW. Once I did find out about it I was immediately able to solo up to MP5 with just changing my build. Now it feels silly and unviable to go back to my old build but the damned thing is I don't like WW, it's boring, but due to the pure tedium and time the game takes I would be giving up literally hundreds of hours and several MP points of progress if I went back to my old build. And then there is the Hellfire ring... How did that make it past PTR? What a wasted opportunity for some real character progression. Sooooooooooo....ooooo...ooo.o tedious to build just to keep waiting for that dumb trifecta with either vit or AR just like everybody else that plays this game wants. You might as well have just given us a trifecta ring with the fixed main stat and our choice of the fourth affix, through the design of the game you've already made that choice for us so why not just give it to us. Sorry, I've turned this into a bit of a rant but honestly it feels good to vent a little lol. Anyway, I really enjoyed the game before I discovered WW build and used the AH. Now I find it more and more difficult to not get discouraged. It's dumb, this is just a game yet I feel disproportionally vested in it. I wish it were something it simply isn't and yet I can't help but find myself disappointed by that fact even though logically I know I shouldn't be lol.


Fixed:

The one thing I keep getting disappointed with is how little control I have over the progression of my character,
both in terms of my ability to actively upgrade my character's affix values/stats and my ability to choose how I upgrade.

There is no actively upgrading and there are so few choices afforded to me I literally feel like a passive member to my character's progression
so much so even when I do upgrade it feels almost hollow due to it not being a result of my 'work' but rather my getting lucky.

I got a multi-million skorn and set chest piece to drop which allowed me to gear up from MP5 to being able to do MP9 without dying and it feels hollow.

I'd much rather be able to some how actively upgrade my gear in a way I choose to become more powerful or somehow make a quirky build become viable
than just randomly be awarded indirect upgrades, that is to say; get item - can't use it - sell it - get item I can use,
I feel like I didn't 'work' for. It's kind of funny, I didn't know the game was like that until about PL5
or so when I finally discovered the WW build for my barb and also finally broke down and used the AH.

TBH I wish I'd never found out about WW or ever used the AH.
I couldn't farm passed MP3 but my dumb little HotA smash with rend ravage build felt like mine.
I had used a balanced sword and board build up until I found out about WW. Once I did find out about it I was immediately able to solo up to MP5
with just changing my build.

Now it feels silly and unviable to go back to my old build but the damned thing is I don't like WW, it's boring,
but due to the pure tedium and time the game takes I would be giving up literally hundreds of hours and several MP points of progress
if I went back to my old build. And then there is the Hellfire ring...

How did that make it past PTR?
What a wasted opportunity for some real character progression. Sooooooooooo....ooooo...ooo.o tedious to build just to keep waiting for that dumb trifecta with either vit or AR
just like everybody else that plays this game wants.

You might as well have just given us a trifecta ring with the fixed main stat and our choice of the fourth affix,
through the design of the game you've already made that choice for us so why not just give it to us.

Sorry, I've turned this into a bit of a rant but honestly it feels good to vent a little lol.
Anyway, I really enjoyed the game before I discovered WW build and used the AH. Now I find it more and more difficult to not get discouraged.

It's dumb, this is just a game yet I feel disproportionally vested in it.
I wish it were something it simply isn't and yet I can't help but find myself disappointed by that fact even though logically I know I shouldn't be lol.
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02/01/2013 01:52 AMPosted by Veda
Fixed:


I made it a wall 'o text because I didn't expect anyone outside of blizz, lol, to read it. But thank you for taking the time to skim it and press enter a few times.
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01/31/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Krystonosetz
I extended the posting limit in this thread, and wanted to let you all know that we have been reading your suggestions. A lot of them are really good and we appreciate it.


Will you add the font from d1 and d2 (for dropped items, npc names, dmg numbers, etc.) as at least a optional choice for players that enjoyed it?

For me (and probably many others) the diablo font was a iconic aesthetic that more or less gave the game a very distinct, unique look and feel. The current arial font just seems out of place.


Wrong section.
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