Diablo® III

Wizard skills - The Great Overhaul

But wouldn't reducing proc coefficient on Living Lightning mess with the overall useability?

Let's say you go 0.1 -> 0.05. That's half the AP on crit, half the Critical Mass procs, and half the Life on Hit. That's quite a nerf that goes beyond just Paralysis.
Reply Quote
02/01/2013 11:51 PMPosted by Dragonfly
Anyway in terms of specific solution for Paralysis... i think i would start with simply halving the coefficient on Living Lightning (from 0.1 to 0.05) and bring Paralysis up to 15% (just under double), see how that plays out.
This is a problem, you would pretty much destroy LL-based builds. LL is one of the few decent signature skills wizards have, of course its drawback is you have to be quite close to your targets for it to work.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,752
View profile
Power hungry change looks like overkill, I can accept the 6 arcane power regen bonus with 3 stacks but a duration of 30 secs is too high I think especially when compared with gruesome feast for WD's or reduce the AP gained when healed by a globe,
Reply Quote
^For that comparison, you have to keep in mind that Gruesome Feast gives a substantial DPS increase. The new Power Hungry would simply be an AP regen passive.

But yeah I think 30 seconds is too much. 10 seconds it is.
Reply Quote
But wouldn't reducing proc coefficient on Living Lightning mess with the overall useability?

Let's say you go 0.1 -> 0.05. That's half the AP on crit, half the Critical Mass procs, and half the Life on Hit. That's quite a nerf that goes beyond just Paralysis.


Anyway in terms of specific solution for Paralysis... i think i would start with simply halving the coefficient on Living Lightning (from 0.1 to 0.05) and bring Paralysis up to 15% (just under double), see how that plays out.
This is a problem, you would pretty much destroy LL-based builds. LL is one of the few decent signature skills wizards have, of course its drawback is you have to be quite close to your targets for it to work.


Look at my profile. I have been using Living Lightning for a while. It's wayyyyy too good :) Try it - see how many Arcane Dynamo stacks you can get out of 1 cast (try it several times vs different monster sizes) and compare that to every other signature spell. I think half would be just about right. My original suggestion was 5-8%, so i'm definitely thinking "at least 5", but honestly, 10% is too much, it's really that good!

(I believe it was 20% when the first Diamond Skin / Magic Weapon - Venom Wizard cheesed Inferno Diablo, and 2% during the overreaction to that.)

02/02/2013 12:39 AMPosted by necropuddi
But yeah I think 30 seconds is too much. 10 seconds it is.


I agree.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 2/2/2013 1:25 AM PST
Reply Quote
Sorry to go against what I said earlier, but I'm gonna leave the Lightning portion as is for now. 1.07 will see the other runes buffed, so we will have to see how that works out before we can deduce whether to nerf or buff something if we want to fit in a major Paralysis overhaul.

Feel free to discuss anything else, but for Paralysis I'm just gonna say wait and see.
Reply Quote
Well... yeah. If you say so. 0.67 to 0.8 won't make a difference in my opinion, and the coefficient on LL isn't changing. Neither is Electrocute.

Did you try it? You didn't try it did you :P

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but i feel the same way about the coefficient on Wicked Wind and i have a hard time finding anyone to agree with me on that one...

Seems the developers agree with your "wait and see" policy, either way; changes are coming, slowly.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 2/2/2013 4:33 AM PST
Reply Quote
OP deals with numbers, but I think Wizard needs a style overhaul.

Goes like this:

Rename Arcane Orb to Elemental Orb, it has variations like hydra/meteor that do different elemental damage in different ways. A Fire Orb would be the replacement for the Arcane Orb rune that does extra damage. There would be a frozen orb like Wizardspike's proc. A lightning orb that does what living lightning does but with more extra damage (and costs AP). Etc.

Same with Arcane bolt. There has to be a fire bolt and an ice bolt (simply chills, not freezes). Frost and Fire builds currently lack a non-AP spender.

Possibly meteor could use a rune that does lightning damage. There are currently two runes that do fire damage and lightning really needs an AP spender.

I think that paralysis is dead on arrival. Instead I would replace it with a passive that makes lightning skills have 40% more attack speed.

Evocation vs. CM. I think CM needs a massive nerf in order to make it no longer mandatory , while other means to reduce cooldown should be buffed/added. CM should be nerfed to never be able to reduce cooldown by more than half. Evocation could reduce 1.5 seconds instead of 1.

All elemental passives should include +5% damage to (element's) skills.

My wildest, least realistic fantasy is to make Archon also have elemental variations, but that's too much.
Reply Quote
Well... yeah. If you say so. 0.67 to 0.8 won't make a difference in my opinion, and the coefficient on LL isn't changing. Neither is Electrocute.

Did you try it? You didn't try it did you :P

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but i feel the same way about the coefficient on Wicked Wind and i have a hard time finding anyone to agree with me on that one...

Seems the developers agree with your "wait and see" policy, either way; changes are coming, slowly.


I have tried some Electrocute builds with that 2Her that +lightning damage. Results were... err... pretty bad =/ I didn't really touch on Electrocute because I really have no idea how to make that skill viable. Forked Lightning and Lightning Blast are the only ones that even seem to have potential. I guess I'll put some thought into it and go for a Lightning skills revamp attempt after 1.07 hits (and coincidentally after Chinese New Year, which is convenient for me too).

And to be honest, I like the way Wicked Wind functions. As a damage skill, it's absolute garbage, but it serves as fuel for an entire array of skills that do damage in its place. SNS is truly a beautiful build that I don't want to see wrecked. I feel that the negativity towards the play style of SNS is more towards the fact that you HAVE to do it or you can't do high MP. If more builds are viable for higher MP, I don't think SNS would be as big an issue.

Anyway, I'm quite psyched for 1.07. Bracers and shoulders look to be exciting, and being able to transparent dye Legendary helms means I can actually get my character a look I like. No more bird heads and no more out-of-place medieval warlord helmet.
Reply Quote
OP deals with numbers, but I think Wizard needs a style overhaul.

Goes like this:

Rename Arcane Orb to Elemental Orb, it has variations like hydra/meteor that do different elemental damage in different ways. A Fire Orb would be the replacement for the Arcane Orb rune that does extra damage. There would be a frozen orb like Wizardspike's proc. A lightning orb that does what living lightning does but with more extra damage (and costs AP). Etc.

Same with Arcane bolt. There has to be a fire bolt and an ice bolt (simply chills, not freezes). Frost and Fire builds currently lack a non-AP spender.

Possibly meteor could use a rune that does lightning damage. There are currently two runes that do fire damage and lightning really needs an AP spender.

I think that paralysis is dead on arrival. Instead I would replace it with a passive that makes lightning skills have 40% more attack speed.

Evocation vs. CM. I think CM needs a massive nerf in order to make it no longer mandatory , while other means to reduce cooldown should be buffed/added. CM should be nerfed to never be able to reduce cooldown by more than half. Evocation could reduce 1.5 seconds instead of 1.

All elemental passives should include +5% damage to (element's) skills.

My wildest, least realistic fantasy is to make Archon also have elemental variations, but that's too much.


Here's a recurring problem I see on these forums... most people, when they suggest stuff, completely ignore the practicality side of making changes to the game. There is a system already in place. Build on it. Make minor modifications that create theorycraft opportunities. Don't suggest bulldoze-type options. It's like... I want a Ferrari as much as the next person who cannot afford one, but when we're talking about buying a car for work, it's best to stick to budget.
Edited by necropuddi#1442 on 2/2/2013 6:42 AM PST
Reply Quote
02/02/2013 06:41 AMPosted by necropuddi
Here's a recurring problem I see on these forums... most people, when they suggest stuff, completely ignore the practicality side of making changes to the game.

Like your OP, right? Because changing every wizard spell's number in a single patch is as inviable if not more as changing a couple of models to already existing ones. Actually, your changes are less viable, because you alter the balance of far more skills than mine. The more things that are changed the more testing that will be needed. Testing is the main time staler.

Instead, unless Blizzard's engine is written by 3 years old, changing the model and damage type of a spell is not actually a ton of development time. Specially because things like frozen and fire orb are already in the game as procs. So...
Edited by vexorian#1817 on 2/2/2013 7:51 AM PST
Reply Quote
While we're at it, let's merge Ray of Frost and Disintegrate into one skill, and have each rune be an element =)

When I say your idea is impractical, I mean something like asking to repaint your parents' car red when the engine is broken. My idea attempts to fix the engine. Your idea is repainting the car. One of them is a necessary step to have a working car, the other is not. At the end of the day you still have to fix the engine, so saying "but painting the car is cheaper" hardly justifies the practicality of it. (I actually have no idea which one is more expensive, as I drive a family car and have never gotten a paint job)
Reply Quote
I have tried some Electrocute builds with that 2Her that +lightning damage. Results were... err... pretty bad =/ I didn't really touch on Electrocute because I really have no idea how to make that skill viable. Forked Lightning and Lightning Blast are the only ones that even seem to have potential. I guess I'll put some thought into it and go for a Lightning skills revamp attempt after 1.07 hits (and coincidentally after Chinese New Year, which is convenient for me too).

And to be honest, I like the way Wicked Wind functions. As a damage skill, it's absolute garbage, but it serves as fuel for an entire array of skills that do damage in its place. SNS is truly a beautiful build that I don't want to see wrecked. I feel that the negativity towards the play style of SNS is more towards the fact that you HAVE to do it or you can't do high MP. If more builds are viable for higher MP, I don't think SNS would be as big an issue.

Anyway, I'm quite psyched for 1.07. Bracers and shoulders look to be exciting, and being able to transparent dye Legendary helms means I can actually get my character a look I like. No more bird heads and no more out-of-place medieval warlord helmet.


Hmm, wrote a massive reply and the forum ate it. Oh well.

Anyway, i was referring to Living Lightning, but yes, Electrocute is pretty bad. 16.7% coefficient on everything except the 25% on Surge of Power. Again though, just slot Arcane Dynamo and give Living Lightning a shot, you'll see what i mean. Note the fact that it stacks and scales with both attack speed and number of enemies. I was being generous when i said to only halve it.

As for Wicked Wind, i love the way it functions, i just hate that every other rune is pointless in comparison. Honestly, again, just halve Wicked Wind and leave the other runes as is. The maths is out there, the build will not break, i have tried it in every patch. People are so concerned about losing their permafreeze because they spent all their money relying on it. I get that you don't want to just nerf everyone but honestly, it's killing build diversity. If i had any say in the matter i would literally be yelling at my fellow co-workers to just get it over with :P

And yeah, transparent legendary dye for the WIN!
Reply Quote
Why is it that no CM's ever respond to threads like this?
Reply Quote
Because I chose not to follow the "what's your favorite ____?" format =) Gotta accept the consequences.
Reply Quote
Hmm, wrote a massive reply and the forum ate it. Oh well.

Anyway, i was referring to Living Lightning, but yes, Electrocute is pretty bad. 16.7% coefficient on everything except the 25% on Surge of Power. Again though, just slot Arcane Dynamo and give Living Lightning a shot, you'll see what i mean. Note the fact that it stacks and scales with both attack speed and number of enemies. I was being generous when i said to only halve it.

As for Wicked Wind, i love the way it functions, i just hate that every other rune is pointless in comparison. Honestly, again, just halve Wicked Wind and leave the other runes as is. The maths is out there, the build will not break, i have tried it in every patch. People are so concerned about losing their permafreeze because they spent all their money relying on it. I get that you don't want to just nerf everyone but honestly, it's killing build diversity. If i had any say in the matter i would literally be yelling at my fellow co-workers to just get it over with :P

And yeah, transparent legendary dye for the WIN!


Sorry about that, you ended that earlier paragraph with "neither is Electrocute" so I sort of answered with that in mind.

Indeed Living Lightning is extremely good for procs, but the damage is mediocre at best. Another reason why I'm saying to wait for the patch is because they're buffing damage on LL and I kind of want to see how big an effect that will have. At the moment LL + Arcane Dynamo builds are good but not half of what SNS is, so I feel that nerfing them is a bit premature.

As for WW, like a week or two ago I made a thread in the Wizard forums
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708260767?page=1
This is a set of solutions that WOULD nerf CM. Despite how minor the nerf would've been, it was met with extreme hostility. So yeah =/ I dunno. There are too many players who have too much invested in something so specific (2.73/3.00 IAS) to have it be wrecked.
Reply Quote
Bump
Reply Quote
@necropuddi

Yeah, i remember that thread, lol. I made a similar one and the same thing happened. Really though, you have to bear in mind that this is a forum and there are very particular motivations for posting here. There's really no way of knowing if 7 people responded with extreme hostility that there aren't another 93 people nodding their heads in silent agreement. Neither is it safe to assume anything like that. I think at the end of the day the developers have the best idea of "how it is" and "how it should be", but i also think that the more ideas we throw at them the better chance we have of striking gold.

And yes, LL damage is silly. 37% to 52% or whatever it is would be about the same as them changing Wicked Wind from 260% to 400%. Builds using it might gain 2% damage at the most, no big deal. Still, i'm not complaining, but i do feel the coefficient is still too high.

I find alternating LL and Meteor to be generally more damage than alternating Wicked Wind and Frost Nova, actually - probably because Frost Nova doesn't even do damage. But of course there are many, many downsides, a lack of permafreeze being the main one. Works great in team games if you already have a 3.0 SNS, though, especially with Conflagration, Time Warp and Molten Impact (and Arcane Dynamo).
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 2/3/2013 3:11 AM PST
Reply Quote
If you look up the most popular builds and the %s, it's actually pretty scary. Vast majority of serious players play some form of CM WW builds. So I'm sure there WILL be outrage if a major CM nerf occurs.

As for LL + Meteor, with 1.07's Temporal Flux changes, Star Pact + Blizzard could become a very scary tandem that simply outclasses LL + Meteor with the right gear.

You could get Mara's -5 to Meteor, Oculus -5, Skull Grasp -5, Stone of Jordan -5 for -20 cost. That's 15 AP cost Star Pacts with 60% slow. If you can't find a good Mara's and don't want to use one of Skull Grasp/Stone of Jordan, you could use Diamond Skin - Prism in its place. Blizzard would get you the initial snare, and with the buffed damage, it's a great skill on its own. Then you infinite-spam Meteors for massive eDPS, crowd control, and a respectable amount of procs. I've seen friends test this on PTR and it's definitely highly viable in higher MPs.
Edited by necropuddi#1442 on 2/4/2013 5:40 AM PST
Reply Quote
There will be NEVER any change to wizard, if the CM is not rendered at least 2 times less effective.

That build is completely and utterly out of any sense - like seriously - permanent stunlock + 20k shield every second + super good damage scaling, that scales very good with every single stat.

That's why i left my wizard. The real reason wizard sucks is because CM > everything and blizzard is to scared to just remove that synergy, so the class will be basically CM machine forever, and its players own fault - you rage about nerfs, yet cry for new builds. Well in this case - update is impossible to make, because you want it to be on the level of TOTALLY overpowered CM.

And most of you dont even want updates/new builds, but just to upgrade the same CM.

Like " HEY, buff ARCANE ORB, SO I CAN CAST ARCANE ORBS INSTEAD OF EXPLODING BLAST SO THAT MY CM WIZ DO MORE DAMAGE, K TXNX"

Im talking to you OP!

"->Arcane Orbit - Increase hitbox to 7 yards. Remove casting animation. "


LIKE SERIOUSLY? Do you think everyone in blizzard is SO DUMB not to realize that all you actually want is to buff the same CM, then throw in some other changes to make it look legit?

For anyone for whom its not obvious - OP just wants to make Modified version of CM build, that's just more op than the current version. How very nice of you. You guys are pathetic.

This is why i asked you - WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO.

What does not work for you?!

Where is your build that does not work?

You suggest buff arcane orb? Show me how you will use it in what build.

NO ONE of you provides that. Because you all secretly hope that you will get something as op as CM or maybe even more, and dont really care about all-around-ballanced class. You dont want class with 30 builds - you just want some few builds (or currently - 1) that are OP. Well - here you go - enjoy your CM forever.
Edited by Shuun#2118 on 2/4/2013 9:30 AM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]