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Crafted and Self-found are more or less equivalent. I was able to get through Hell using only items that I'd found or crafted in-game. It was not possible to finish Inferno the same way. Nothing that my Level 10 Blacksmith could make for me was good enough to finish Act 1, let alone any of the later content -- end-game capable crafted gear requires plans that only drop in Inferno, and almost never even then. Most of the plans that my Blacksmith "knows" had to be bought on the GAH.
Crafting BoA gear with BoA materials is perfectly valid only if one of the two cases are met
1) High time investment and moderate cost for high chance of high value items
2) Extremely low cost plus moderate time investment for low chance of very high value tiems.
Right now in PTR crafting is close to qualifying for the second case, however many of us dont feel its quite there for certain pieces (such a gloves, that will have less than 1/100,000 chance of being better than a 300m piece on the AH, but for 100x that much to craft). Either the cost needs to be brought way down, or the time has to be brought way down, or the end result needs to be brought up a bit. As it stands right now, the crafting is too expensive/time consuming and low chance of success to justify Bind to Account.
That said, Bind on Equip Marquise gems are idiodic. You are already 'charging' 20m gold and 10 demonic ess to craft them from tradeable plans.
This literally makes no sense. You are making untradeable gems with nearly an hours worth of DE each, with well over an hours worth of gold, but the plans dont have to be farmed?
This needs switched around. Make the plans untradeable, keep the 10 DE requirement, keep the 20m craft, but make the gems themselves tradeable.
The largest benefit of this is to make demonic ess have a market value. The profit margin on marquis gems will be divided by 10 and boom, you have a reliable, repeatable amount of gold coming in from elite pack kills. This would be highly beneficial for the market as a whole and bring up the rewards from 'farming' and reduce the advantage of playing 'AH3'. Lots of the feedback has requested the game to move in this direction.
There are two main resources in D3: time, and real money.
Time provides drops, gold, and from both of those, resources to craft. So I definitely consider crafting as "self-found."
The problem is that spending resources on crafting versus resources on the AH is that crafting essentially destroys resources in exchange for another randomly rolled piece of gear, With the AH, I can choose exactly what I want to get in exchange for my resources. Despite high AH costs, it is because of this that crafting is an inferior method of spending resources.
I don't want to get into an argument of the validity of spending real money; let me move past this quickly in saying that micro-transactions aren't anything new, and paying real money for in-game items is just a measure of the player's perceived value of the game they are playing, effectively equivalent to a monthly fee or the aforementioned micro-transactions.
With the RMAH, we essentially remove game time as a resource and replace it with "job time," ie real-world money earning. But it's still a time-based resource.
From this point of view, RMAH and AH spending are both accelerated time-based gearing, and drops and crafting are slow and random.
What's best? It depends on the player. Me, I ground gear improvements until they simply stopped dropping at a reasonable rate. Then I relied on the AH. When my time spent getting gold stopped giving reasonable rewards versus upgrade rate, I bought some gold on the RMAH and geared up on the AH to a point where I could farm better, and now I am currently grinding again with the hope that at some point, my MF will result in renewed chances of gear through farming.
At no point did I consider crafting to be viable. It removes resources that could be better spent on the AH, with no concrete reward.
Should there be some method to improve gear specifically or craft gear with better stat options? I think so. While this may seem counter to the idea of a random-item ARPG, if it still expended enough gold (ergo, time,) it really wouldn't be any different than the "viable" resource sinks we already have.
I like the concept of crafted items as a means to upgrade your character, however, the price of crafting is way too high. From what I've read on the PTR notes, the cost of buying and making many items is higher than a none AH user could afford. This makes it almost inaccessible if you don't regularly buy/sell on the AH to make a profit.
This obviously includes gems in the concept of crafting. ATM it costs 500,000 to just make a Star quality gem. Imagine that in conjunction with regularly breaking down rares for materials and not using the AH. What should that player do? (Note: This doesn't directly apply to myself, but does to the demographic mentioned.)
Edit: Side note; I find the current gear system to be rather dull. I hate to make a comparison to Diablo 2, but it can't be helped. When you found a Unique in that game, you had a good idea of what you were getting, and it was exciting when you saw a particular item type drop. The huge variance that exists between the same Legendary/Unique in the current model instills a strong sense of pessimism. When a Legendary drops, I don't get excited, and just make the assumption that it's horrible in the itemization (which unfortunately has proven true for every Legendary acquired thus far.).
I don't have a solution to that problem, but I did want to voice my concern with the reward system. It's a shame when all you really look forward to is another paragon level completed.
Edited by Hamboigahs#1176 on 2/6/2013 12:09 AM PST
Part of, if not the biggest, problem in itemization in D3 is that the developers clearly pulled over a statistic system like WoW's, but threw away the sensibility of it.
WoW's greens are the equivalent of D3's blues; a couple bonuses. The difference is that WoW's greens are nearly always categorically defined into useful stat combinations, and the roll for each stat is always at an amount viable for a character of the same level as the item, assuming they don't have a higher quality-type already equipped in that slot.
Yes, there are some specific green gear that's bad, and there are some allotments that are mostly dumb (like "of spirit" or often, "of the whale" plate.) But the allotments are chosen for use and the stat ranges are viable.
Blues therefore can be compared to D3's yellows. More bonuses, in general, or higher bonuses (in WoW, not necessarily in D3.) But again, most are useful to someone in WoW. Not so in D3.
Next, and perhaps the worst in design, we come to Legendaries. WoW's purples are its set items and high-level standalone pieces, and, with few exceptions, its best gear. There are absurdly few that SOMEONE wouldn't want. They are nearly all smartly designed for one or more classes and always drop with proper stat allotments and value.
Yet, a Legendary/Set piece in D3, (yes, thankfully buffed since launch) can still roll in a way that makes it useless. This SHOULD NEVER be the case. No Legendary should ever, ever, EVER, be completely useless. It's an affront to the developers, and an affront to the players. The only reason a player should ever pass on a legendary is if it's for a different class or if they already have one. It should never be passed on because it "just sucks."
I'm not trying to create a WoW vs. D3 argument here. I'm just saying, it's nonsensical that such a transition in concept should be as half-a$$ed as it is.
I loved crafting in D2 ... blood gloves were something I made all the time with the Nef rune. It was an inexpensive rune an fairly common but, not so common that i could make them all day long. There was still a challenge to getting a decent roll.
i guess, what I realize about myself is that I like to gamble a bit, that is, until I'm consistantly losing. Then the crafting idea just starts to look expensive and time consuming. it's a stroke genius to make the crafting rely more upon essense and less on gold.
What would really help is if we had a Blacksmith who could not only craft items ... but, could sharpen, fortify, socket and enchant them as well. If the blacksmith could enchant items up to 2 or 3 times ... and remove unwanted enchantments ... that would be amazing.
Immagine this ... you just found a weapon with nearly perfect stats. Can you imagine that? LOL of course you can, you find them every day. But, one stat is missing. Tht's ok ... bring it to the blacksmith and he'll sharpen it. now taht 839 dps weapon is 1011 dps .. well, it may not be godly but now, I can use it. Thank mr blacksmith!~
And socket quests ... How is that 10 years later our game comes to us again, in it's newest form but, so much got lost ... so many things didn't make it over. Runes, rune words, sockets, jewels!!!!! ( OH man I miss jewels)
And while we're at it ... how about making the jeweler have a way to combine different gems into one jewel ... so that we can put it in a socketed weapon ... Want a little more CD? A lil More DPS? combine a marquie emerald and a ruby into one jewel and then pop it in~! Best of both worlds buddy
Now, every time I hear people mention runes (when discussing skills) it makes me crindge. Because i miss the runes from D2
But, perhaps we just need to focus on all the good for a while. And there is a lot of it. The last 2 patches have been very possitive. Yet there are SO many ways to bring excitement and fun back t this game. I have compiled a few of my PVP concepts here. Please request sticky if you like any of them:
Edited by AdAstrA#1590 on 2/6/2013 12:52 AM PST
This thread does a really good job of articulating the difference between two popular approaches to playing Diablo III. Some players want to find their own gear and some players just want to streamline their way to maximum efficiency. There are a lot of players in-between as well. Each are completely valid play styles that happen to provide different benefits to different people. (Personally, I like to keep my Auction House use to a minimum in general, but I am willing to spend some gold if one of my items really needs adjustment.)
I consider self found as finding your own gear by killing monsters or finding your own mats for your own crafted gear, D2 had orange crafted items with the horadric cube so technically i self found crafted in that game too.
I consider Crafting to be self found and I try to play as self found as possible. I actually like the idea of Bind On Account items. But I think crafting is too expensive in the gold department, and that is what makes the AH so appealing and hard to resist.
If crafting was cheaper in gold, but more expensive in materials, and items could have one or more fixed properties, crafting would start to become more appealing. That was the benefit of D2 crafting, you knew you would get certian FIXED properties and then some random rolls. The random rolls could suck, or they could be godly, but the item was still useful. Sometimes in D3 you just craft complete crap items 10 times in a row and basically waste more gold then if you just bought an item.
since were talking playstyles and crafting I for one am looking forward to it because even though i use the AH I find most of my upgrades through pve due to lvling 5chars at once so everything is good dropped is an upgrade. Everyone keeps talking about how hard it will be to roll something good through ctafting but due to me being too poor for high end upgrades I think that my chances of getting something good are way better. Ive been rolling vit hellfires and if crafting works out the way I think it will I plan on investing all resources into ito it. I have 5kessences and 50gold saved up. My most before this was 30mil. I havent played ptr so I havent tested the theory but I plan on rolling all vit items
If you guys where really trying to help self found gear players, how about doing the one thing everyone asks for, remove AH effect on drop rates....simple....no point in making long posts and making it all sound pretty when your saying, we know what you want, but your not getting it....
Ha-ha-haaa! What a dark sense of humor. Here's the gist: Many players would like to get great gear by their own devices, through collecting materials or essences or stuff and then fiddling with the properties of some gear they found, increasing attributes etc. That means, Mr. Funny, no exorbitant price tags or random generated blacksmith junk, but a clear path to creating dramatic upgrades.
Mission failure, so far, go begin implementing a lot more!
Marquise gems are for people who use self-found gear? The problem there is only the super rich can even fathom ever getting one. People with self-found gear hardly have any gold compared to the people running bots, buying gold with real money, and people getting lucky billionaire drops. I find it completely absurd that you would even suggest that marquise gems were implemented for that purpose. It made me really angry reading this post... I'm trying to refrain from blowing up right now. Just... unbelievable...
Edited by Agonni#1267 on 2/6/2013 3:50 AM PST
Crafting is self-found.
To me, "AH free" basically means "from the ground up," or items and upgrades that come my way by my own hard work. Whether that means farming certain areas repeatedly, running bosses over and over, or salvaging enough materials so I can craft my own upgrades, to me, crafting is definitely a legit way to upgrade without the Auction House.
What baffles me, though, is why people bother buying crafting materials in bulk from the AH. If they're going to spend gold or real money on materials, they may as well just save the time and save that money or spend it on actual items. You salvage a few pieces per trip to town during farming runs, and you can have plenty of materials to use for repeated crafting attempts. Buying the materials only saves time, but one can save a lot more time by just buying the desired items as opposed to buying materials to only get a chance at having something good.
As for crafting, though, I'm really happy to see more done with it in 1.0.7, and I look forward to much deeper crafting options in the future. Obviously, with the AH being an issue, I'm sure the idea of giving players the ability to not only craft the perfect gear, but customize individual affixes on that gear, is a pretty hard one to fine-tune...but what about an option/feature to take some broken gray piece of gear one finds, for instance, and put enough salvaged materials into it to upgrade it to something better than legendary and set items?
Even if that's a time sink, item sink, gold sink, kitchen sink, whatever, if there's a chance that a gray item can be slowly upgraded and transformed steadily into an exceptionally amazing item, people will easily put that time into making that item 1) so they can have the glory of showing it off, and 2) so they can wield/wear a piece of gear that's better than the average stuff.
Maybe enough blue materials can upgrade it to the next quality tier, and once it hits high enough quality, it hits a milestone where it's eligible for yellow materials that can add an affix slot...more blues to upgrade further, more yellows at various milestones to add additional affix slots...maybe specific choices when those affix slots get opened? Once it hits high enough quality, brimstones can be used to turn it from high quality to legendary, and from legendary to set quality?
Perhaps a way to craft an entire set of individualized class specific gear, upgraded from all gray items, into a personalized set that a character can wear? Even if it has, like, two or three fields and a certain amount of pre-input choices to name each piece, it'd give people some really cool projects to direct their attention to, that would not only provide amazing reward, but make people's gear feel more unique than another person's.
Edited by CardinalMDM#1269 on 2/6/2013 4:56 AM PST
Frankly, I am the type of gamer who would have played AH free. But I began Diablo before the 1.1.1 patch. ^^
I would like to play Diablo without AH. But right now, it's impossible if you want to finish the Inferno mode in less than 200 hours.
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