Diablo® III

Is it possible to play CM with just 10 APoC

and if so, how much aps/CC would you need?

I'm wondering if its possible to stack enough CC and +CC to Energy Twister to get by with just one APoC item (i.e. Mempo + Slorak's + APoC Force). I'd use a stormcrow, but then I'd have to use my inna's for the attack speed instead of BT pants.

Also:
Thx @ Shandlar and Aph for responding to my PC Slorak thread a few days ago. I got to see your responses before the thread got deleted but didn't have time to reply until after it was too late.
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there was a thread where masterjay and tekkzero discusses the posibility, i dont remember if they said it would be viable
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Depends on how many mobs you are attacking at once. 10 apoc will not work well at all with 1 or 2 mobs.
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You could, but your dps would suffer a lot against 1-2 targets and it is far from optimal. It really depends on one's definition of viability. Regardless of that, it is not recommended by anyone, even at very high APS+CC because high APS means you're casting WW faster, so you still need the higher APoC to be able to chain cast.
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I'm doing it with minimal APoC right now because I'm missing a source with APoC. It is difficult with one or two enemies that you can't get to stay in your twisters (Succubus, Impalers, any other kiting enemy) but you can manage with everything else. Startup time is also a bit slower.

I'd definitely recommend having more than one piece with APoC.
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Use the Shag build, runs off 10+ APOC I believe.
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I do it all the time. Although it requires you to pay much more attention to where you are spamming your nados and your position has to be on point with your EB hitting as many as you can. But I pretty darn good EHP and I don't use another attack turn/spell that eats my arcane power and your rotations take a little bit longer to start before you can spam EB without thought.

If you want to run something like spamming teleport or dropping meteors you have to have at least 17 APOC. In the end it just depends on what Monster level you want to run and how lazy you want to be with your positioning and EHP. The current setting you see in my profile I comfortably farm mp8 without any problems 2.78 aps if I remember correctly without enchantress and can easily drop paper DPS and run full SNS with magic weapon electrify or force weapon.
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Practically speaking you cannot support WW on a single target with 10APoC without also having OBSCENE crit chance. To break even, which is to say WW wouldn't net you any AP, you'd need 78%cc. For someone with 2.73aps, to just get the equivalent of someone with 50%cc/18APoC, you'd need 90%cc!!!!! I discussed that possibility with MasterJay that you MIGHT be able to make it work functionally with 80%cc, but I personally think that's pretty risky.

However, there is one way you can make it work for single target. And that's to use Diamond Skin (Prism), instead of Shards or Crystal Shell. That dramatically drops the bare minimum requirement on cc down to a very manageable 62%cc minimum. And you probably could be pretty comfortable with 75-85%cc, probably even less.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/31/2013 1:31 PM PST
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Practically speaking you cannot support WW with 10APoC without OBSCENE crit chance for energy twister. To break even with meteor, which is to say WW wouldn't net you any AP, you'd need 78%cc. For someone with 2.73aps, to just get the equivalent of someone with 50%cc/18APoC, you'd need 90%cc!!!!! You MIGHT be able to make it work with 80%cc, which I discussed that possibility with MasterJay.


I think you are missing the point, you can easily farm and play with 10apoc, I do it all the time. You are comparing apples and oranges... you are making a comparison between being able to successfully farm with 10apoc to being the equivalent of 50cc/18apoc without a specific build in which you are speaking of. There are many MANY variations of CM builds and all are quite viable depending on your specific attack speed/ehp/dps and skill sets. The answer to the OPs question is Yes you can run CM wizzy build on 10apoc, I do it all the time... but most common CM builds require more apoc with decent CC.
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no chance you'll be CM in name only. Build wont work right spells wont get off. 20 for me is barley adequate. Still miss cast opportunity at start of winding up. 10 is like you wont even be able to cast for whole duration even after max twisters are up.

Basically you need 100% CC and 3.0 ias to run like someone with 50% CC and 2.73 with 20 apoc which as I said still feels the nerf.
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01/31/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Succubus
Practically speaking you cannot support WW with 10APoC without OBSCENE crit chance for energy twister. To break even with meteor, which is to say WW wouldn't net you any AP, you'd need 78%cc. For someone with 2.73aps, to just get the equivalent of someone with 50%cc/18APoC, you'd need 90%cc!!!!! You MIGHT be able to make it work with 80%cc, which I discussed that possibility with MasterJay.


I think you are missing the point, you can easily farm and play with 10apoc, I do it all the time. You are comparing apples and oranges... you are making a comparison between being able to successfully farm with 10apoc to being the equivalent of 50cc/18apoc without a specific build in which you are speaking of. There are many MANY variations of CM builds and all are quite viable depending on your specific attack speed/ehp/dps and skill sets. The answer to the OPs question is Yes you can run CM wizzy build on 10apoc, I do it all the time... but most common CM builds require more apoc with decent CC.


What is the build that you use that can farm efficiently with 10 APOC?

This is revolutionary news, we must tell the masses !
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10 can't work. After my brain fart buying a 5 APOC Force I tried to see if 15 worked and it was awful.
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@Succubus: Not to sound snobbish, but you're definition of playable is VERY different from mine. And compared to a lot of CM/WW wizards here, I've already got a low threshold for what's okay. I'm regularly roasted by forum regulars, such as Aimless, for running with so low AP regeneration.

And I personally do not consider it "playable" to be running out of AP with SNS CM/WW wizard on a single target, which is around 6.5 AP/sec. Most people discuss 6.75-7.5 as their minimums. You're running 3.2625 AP/sec, which means you're only doing fine in my estimation if you have two targets.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/31/2013 1:40 PM PST
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those 35 apoc twisters are expensive. But needed to reset cooldowns. If you cant even afford to get enough in air to reset "free" FN and "free" DS your survival tanks. I guarantee you u die all the time in mp8 even using low dps energy armor not to mention do no DPS cos running EA and not firing off properly. Nothing effceint about it. CM in name only. Like archon with no MS and no LS. Archon in name only.

One more APOC source is nothing. Get it and change your world.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/31/2013 1:54 PM PST
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01/31/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Aimless
One more APOC source is nothing. Get it and change your world.
QFT! While your cc is a little low, you've already got pretty decent damage mitigation and DPS. Simply buying one more source of APoC would be huge for you (probably an APoC chant's force).
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01/31/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Boozor


I think you are missing the point, you can easily farm and play with 10apoc, I do it all the time. You are comparing apples and oranges... you are making a comparison between being able to successfully farm with 10apoc to being the equivalent of 50cc/18apoc without a specific build in which you are speaking of. There are many MANY variations of CM builds and all are quite viable depending on your specific attack speed/ehp/dps and skill sets. The answer to the OPs question is Yes you can run CM wizzy build on 10apoc, I do it all the time... but most common CM builds require more apoc with decent CC.


What is the build that you use that can farm efficiently with 10 APOC?

This is revolutionary news, we must tell the masses !


The build I run up to MP8 is currently running in my profile. Is it easy not at all, do I enjoy playing with it, from time to time. Is it efficient? Is ANYTHING really efficient besides WW Barb in this game? Those questions are quite different opposed to a playable PvE play at your own pace D3 stat of the game at the moment. Especially with questions like the OP states without any variable being stated or specific builds being mentioned.

@Succubus: Not to sound snobbish, but you're definition of playable is VERY different from mine. And compared to a lot of CM/WW wizards here, I've already got a low threshold for what's okay. I'm regularly roasted by forum regulars, such as Aimless, for running with so low AP regeneration.

And I personally do not consider it "playable" to be running out of AP with SNS CM/WW wizard on a single target, which is around 6.5 AP/sec. Most people discuss 6.75-7.5 as their minimums. You're running 3.2625 AP/sec, which means you're only doing fine in my estimation if you have two targets.


I don't much care about single targets for this build and avoid them for the most part. This isn't an ubers build and would be insanely sily to try and run this type of build for that purpose. I run this build only when farming keep depths, bridge, core and towers... highly dense areas. It is very easy to get the 5 stacks make the run log out and do it all over again.

For ubers, I throw on a Storm Crow and drop glass cannon, pick up astral presence and safe passage instead of MW or sometimes Slow time jump in a game. Diff builds for different purposes. But that is quite a different story.

I've also got 4 pieces to swap out to run Sustained Archon build, I also play a pieced together spin2win Barb from time to time...

People get on forums and take things slightly too technical and serious and see things for only face value. I don't think many are on here to nerdgasm over efficiency and spending billions on top of billions for tip top gear like they used to. I know Im no longer interested in that and countless others are the same way if not have fully quit the game and never play again... I play when I have absolutely NOTHING else to do. But that is not to say that I don't know 4 different classes very very well with over 600 hours of play.

Anywho, hopefully the info on this post helps the OP. No offense taken/none given.

just my .02cents
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One more APOC source is nothing. Get it and change your world.
QFT! While your cc is a little low, you've already got pretty decent damage mitigation and DPS. Simply buying one more source of APoC would be huge for you (probably an APoC chant's force).


I have more AR and ARMOR than him and one time put my mempo on (900 AR) and forgot to change my source to apoc source so I only had 10 apoc. Died 3x on first pack.

I had CM runes selected but I was no CM.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/31/2013 2:14 PM PST
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Tekk,

How did you calculate your AP/sec? I am at 2.51 and 46%, with 20 APOC, and I find that I get the out of arcane power message very infrequently, but get the skill not ready message a lot. I'm just curious about the math behind the bare minimum APOC needed.
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I tried with 10 apoc, its quite playable but not in the sense of a true CM/WW build. I had insane WW crit with a 8ET Sloraks and 5ET Skull Grasp and also used Deep Freeze.

Your wind up time is a little longer(1-3secs) but once you start you don't really notice the difference until you get stuck on that 1 gold elite after all the adds are dead. Its very hard to freeze a solo target and then regain your APOC as he moves out of your WW.

So YES its possible, but not really viable or worth it.
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What is the build that you use that can farm efficiently with 10 APOC?

This is revolutionary news, we must tell the masses !


The build I run up to MP8 is currently running in my profile. Is it easy not at all, do I enjoy playing with it, from time to time. Is it efficient? Is ANYTHING really efficient besides WW Barb in this game? Those questions are quite different opposed to a playable PvE play at your own pace D3 stat of the game at the moment. Especially with questions like the OP states without any variable being stated or specific builds being mentioned.

@Succubus: Not to sound snobbish, but you're definition of playable is VERY different from mine. And compared to a lot of CM/WW wizards here, I've already got a low threshold for what's okay. I'm regularly roasted by forum regulars, such as Aimless, for running with so low AP regeneration.

And I personally do not consider it "playable" to be running out of AP with SNS CM/WW wizard on a single target, which is around 6.5 AP/sec. Most people discuss 6.75-7.5 as their minimums. You're running 3.2625 AP/sec, which means you're only doing fine in my estimation if you have two targets.


I don't much care about single targets for this build and avoid them for the most part. This isn't an ubers build and would be insanely sily to try and run this type of build for that purpose. I run this build only when farming keep depths, bridge, core and towers... highly dense areas. It is very easy to get the 5 stacks make the run log out and do it all over again.

For ubers, I throw on a Storm Crow and drop glass cannon, pick up astral presence and safe passage instead of MW or sometimes Slow time jump in a game. Diff builds for different purposes. But that is quite a different story.

I've also got 4 pieces to swap out to run Sustained Archon build, I also play a pieced together spin2win Barb from time to time...

People get on forums and take things slightly too technical and serious and see things for only face value. I don't think many are on here to nerdgasm over efficiency and spending billions on top of billions for tip top gear like they used to. I know Im no longer interested in that and countless others are the same way if not have fully quit the game and never play again... I play when I have absolutely NOTHING else to do. But that is not to say that I don't know 4 different classes very very well with over 600 hours of play.

Anywho, hopefully the info on this post helps the OP. No offense taken/none given.

just my .02cents


Perhaps but it's irresponsible IMO to advise conditions that

"Is it easy not at all"
"I don't much care about single targets for this build and avoid them for the most part. This isn't an ubers build and would be insanely sily to try and run this type of build for that purpose."

especially when 2 sources of apoc are easy to get. not billions required u can get a chants apoc sources pretty cheap and storm crows even cheaper.

I get called an elitist like ur doing sometimes. meh whateves I only want ppl to enjoy themselves so my advices are with that in mind and u wont do so with 10 apoc period.

simple
<2.73 needs 3 sources
>2.73 can get by with 2
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/31/2013 2:27 PM PST
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