Diablo® III

Pls explain nurf to CC (ie perma freeze)?

Posts: 87
cc = crowd control

I recently returned to the game about a month ago and read here:

http://www.windupwizard.com/

that perma freeze was nurfed in 105.

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"Monsters have a "CC resistance" that is stored on a per-monster basis.

The CC resistance starts at 0%. For every 1 second CC that is applied to the monster, the monster receives 10% CC resistance.

Monsters lose 10% of their CC resistance every second that they are not CC’d.

Elite monster CC resistance is capped at the current reduction values already active for Elites. In other words, CC resistance on most Elite monsters is capped to:

35% in Normal

50% in Nightmare

65% in Hell

65% in Inferno"
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Yet I still see people talking about perma freeze and people asking for it in chat. There's even a thread about the ill manners of other non-wizards on the topic, who still expect 100% lockdown. So whats the deal?

Was it nurfed? Also, is this cc resistance shared? Like does freeze share DR (diminishing returns) with fear from say barb using EF?
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Before 1.05 mobs permanently had 65% reduction to CC.
In 1.05 they changed it so the reduction gradually increases and caps at 65%

This means that it's easier to get started with a stunlock, and generally stuns work a lot better.
Edited by Niko#2983 on 1/31/2013 8:11 AM PST
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Prior to the 1.05 there was already the 65% CC reduction in Inferno. The 1.05 changes meant that the first time you CC you actually get the full duration of the CC. The CC reduction caps at the point that it was at prior to 1.05 so it was actually a net buff to CC. Your first frost nova freezes for the full duration (on whites) and even when CC resistance is capped frost nova freezes for just as long as it always did prior to 1.05.

As for the resistance, my understanding is that it is a global value. Any CC adds to the CC resistance so yes EF fear or Monk blind means that your first frost nova won't last quite as long.
Edited by TheM0L3#1696 on 1/31/2013 8:16 AM PST
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^ yeah now CC ramps down so we can ramp up. We got a huge nerf in 1.0.4 but got some back in 1.0.5 kinda. You still need like 2.73 ias, 50%CC and near 20 apoc before build start working well which is a far from what we needed in 1.0.3. Like 35 cc and 1.5 ias and like 20 apoc. So overall nerfed hard.

100% lockdown will depend somewhat on pings you get but generally it's thought 3 ias, 60cc gives it on singles. 55CC with cold snap. Most of us go for studder lock which means they stay where they belong, under your twisters procing, but move and stil cast some spells.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/31/2013 8:50 AM PST
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Actualy, there was a MAJOR nerf in 1.05 that most people don't quite appreciate. They raised the minimum stun duration that gets ignored by elites and bosses. The calculation for testing whether you can freeze or not is: (Crowd Control Spell/Ability Duration)*Stun Resist-Stun Minimum. The game guide is out of date and notes the pre-1.05 duration of 0.5s. Instead in 1.05 they did this:
1.05 patch notes:
Elite modifiers have been changed slightly at higher levels:
•The minimum stun duration required for most Elites is now 0.65 seconds (up from 0.5 seconds); stuns less than 0.65 seconds will have no effect
•The minimum stun duration required for Rares and bosses is now 0.85 seconds (up from 0.5 seconds); stuns less than 0.85 seconds will have no effect


So what does that mean? Well it means our overall freeze effect with Frost Nova at full windup with WW is MUCH worse than it was before 1.05. For example, the minimum freeze duration of Frost Nova pre-1.05 was 0.55s, but in 1.05 it's now between 0.2-0.4s. That's a hefty nerf and actually killed permafreeze for a single target using any skill other than WW. The only reason WW still works well is that we now have enough time via an elite's reduced starting crowd control resistance to stack sufficient energy twisters on a target to get enough procs to maintain permafreeze.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/31/2013 8:52 AM PST
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^ yeah now CC ramps down so we can ramp up. We got a huge nerf in 1.0.4 but got some back in 1.0.5 kinda. You still need like 2.73 ias, 50%CC and near 20 apoc before build start working well which is a far from what we needed in 1.0.3. Like 35 cc and 1.5 ias and like 20 apoc. So overall nerfed hard.

100% lockdown will depend somewhat on pings you get but generally it's thought 3 ias, 60cc gives it on singles. 55CC with cold snap. Most of us go for studder lock which means they stay where they belong, under your twisters procing, but move and stil cast some spells.


You really only need about 38-40% cc to make cm effective.
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Actualy, there was a MAJOR nerf in 1.05 that most people don't quite appreciate. They raised the minimum stun duration that gets ignored by elites and bosses. The calculation for testing whether you can freeze or not is: (Crowd Control Spell/Ability Duration)*Stun Resist-Stun Minimum. The game guide is out of date and notes the pre-1.05 duration of 0.5s. Instead in 1.05 they did this:
1.05 patch notes:
Elite modifiers have been changed slightly at higher levels:
•The minimum stun duration required for most Elites is now 0.65 seconds (up from 0.5 seconds); stuns less than 0.65 seconds will have no effect
•The minimum stun duration required for Rares and bosses is now 0.85 seconds (up from 0.5 seconds); stuns less than 0.85 seconds will have no effect


So what does that mean? Well it means our overall freeze effect with Frost Nova at full windup with WW is MUCH worse than it was before 1.05. For example, the minimum freeze duration of Frost Nova pre-1.05 was 0.55s, but in 1.05 it's now between 0.2-0.4s. That's a hefty nerf and actually killed permafreeze for a single target using any skill other than WW. The only reason WW still works well is that we now have enough time via an elite's reduced starting crowd control resistance to stack sufficient energy twisters on a target to get enough procs to maintain permafreeze.


What are you talking about??

The minimum duration of our freeze should be 1.05s (3s * 0.35) which is higher than even the .85 seconds (or less) needed for a boss to be effectively immune to a stun. The change you quoted would affect shorter duration crowd control like the fear on Echoing Fury but never factors in for frost nova as far as I know. If frost nova only froze for .5 seconds then bosses and elites would be immune to the effect entirely.

EDIT: I see what you are talking about now. Where does it say that the "stun minimum" is subtracted from the stun duration though? The way I read that is if you stun a boss for .86 seconds they are stunned for .86 seconds, but if you stun for .85 seconds or less than they are completely immune.
Edited by TheM0L3#1696 on 1/31/2013 10:22 AM PST
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^ yeah now CC ramps down so we can ramp up. We got a huge nerf in 1.0.4 but got some back in 1.0.5 kinda. You still need like 2.73 ias, 50%CC and near 20 apoc before build start working well which is a far from what we needed in 1.0.3. Like 35 cc and 1.5 ias and like 20 apoc. So overall nerfed hard.

100% lockdown will depend somewhat on pings you get but generally it's thought 3 ias, 60cc gives it on singles. 55CC with cold snap. Most of us go for studder lock which means they stay where they belong, under your twisters procing, but move and stil cast some spells.


You really only need about 38-40% cc to make cm effective.

depends what u mean by effective. I don't consider have to chase anything even high health single elites effective. They can kill you launch spells etc and it's a serious time waster.

But sure you can play like that but its miserable and feels nerfed compared to when we used to run like that on 1.0.3.
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You really only need about 38-40% cc to make cm effective.

depends what u mean by effective. I don't consider have to chase anything even high health single elites effective. They can kill you launch spells etc and it's a serious time waster.

But sure you can play like that but its miserable and feels nerfed compared to when we used to run like that on 1.0.3.


Maybe he is talking about +crit not total crit. I only have +38.5% crit and I can run MP5 or 6 pretty comfortably. Usually I use Pinpoint for bosses though which brings me up to 48.5% total crit.
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EDIT: I see what you are talking about now. Where does it say that the "stun minimum" is subtracted from the stun duration though? The way I read that is if you stun a boss for .86 seconds they are stunned for .86 seconds, but if you stun for .85 seconds or less than they are completely unaffected.
That's a valid criticism and it's probably a misconception I've carried along. The topic was talked a lot about in the last PTR (for example see here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794350780 .). Unfortunately, the old 1.0.5 PTR thread where this was heavily discussed has been deleted, because they recently deleted all of the old 1.0.5 PTR threads.

But my understanding from people that "tested" this is that the minimum stun duration is non-intuitively being subtracted from all stun durations. However, I have NOT personally tested this myself in-depth and so it's largely hearsay. And I had forgotten that Shandlar, who's been a great expert on this topic, disagreed with their results.

I actually would love to see this refuted and it's probably a result worth being skeptical about. I know I've progressively grown more and more skeptical of people claiming to have tested stuff without showing the data. For example, I recently did some quantitative tests that definitely showed that molten and fire chains are not physical damage as some d3 players had been claiming. So right now, I can only take their word for it.

All I've done personally is that, at full cc resistance, I've qualitatively tested to see how fast elites/bosses recover from our Frost Nova freeze. I didn't feel like I was getting a full 1s of freeze that we should be guranteed (3*(1-.65) = 1.05s). However, it's worth noting that a large portion of those tests were done on Ghom and my understanding from the game guide is that bosses actually have a 70% resistance. So maybe when I did this testing months ago, I was seeing that the minimum stun duration on bosses being closer to 0.9s (3*(1-.70) = 0.9s).
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/31/2013 11:03 AM PST
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Posts: 87
this is some great info, thanks to all who contributed
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To test, instead of checking the full resist duration, check the first freeze. It should be 3s since the starting resist should be 0. If the other theory is right it'd be more like 2.15s.
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