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Sorry Piffle I should've been more specific. I wasn't even directing my posts towards you, just using you as an example since you've been pro OWE in this thread and others.
The point was to show that for a fraction of the cost (I'm guessing, since you mentioned needing 1B to drop OWE) my stats taking skills and passives into account isn't that much worse than yours. And I took a completely different (focusing almost entirely on getting defense via items opposed to skills and passives) approach to getting there. Ultimately, just trying to show that dropping OWE isn't such a bad thing, as many have made it out to be.
I'm also not at all trying to say I did something "right" or you did something "wrong." Just that theres multiple routes to success and that dropping OWE early might not be as bad as people (including you) seem to think it is. After all, I've spent ~100m and I've got about ~85% effective offense and defense that you do.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 2/11/2013 7:46 PM PST
Sorry Piffle I should've been more specific. I wasn't even directing my posts towards you, just using you as an example since you've been pro OWE in this thread and others.
Ok, so I understand the argument you're trying to make, but I don't understand why you went about it the way you did.
Comparing our buffed stats using different builds makes this a very curious exercise. You can clearly tell that my build was selected to help improve the group's DPS as a whole, while yours is focused on your own DPS.
Changing my build to be more similar to yours (no GL) gets me up to 256k dps (66.7%). Of course, your numbers earlier didn't include FitL which benefits me more than it does you, either. Adding that in gets me to 450k, while it takes you to just 242/293k (65%).
And if you usually use MoH when solo, this changes again. Because I always use MoC.
Finally, I don't know why you keep bringing up how much you've spent on your gear. It's meaningless. My Witching Hour cost me more than all of your gear combined. How is this relevant to the discussion of what using OwE costs someone? I am very happy that you got your current stats for a price that you feel is good, but it really is not at all relevant to our discussion.
For *most* people, using OwE costs them 3-4 affixes and 1 passive slot. That's it.
Please correct me if I am wrong. But one thing that monks have that may be unique to monks (but again, I may be wrong on this) are a combination of skills that can (1) have massive damage buffsThey're damage buffs for a few seconds. Barbarians have damage buffs that are lasting.
Battle Rage: Increases all damage by 15% AND Critical Hit Chance by 3% for 120 seconds. All the runes for it are awesome.
Marauder's Rage - Increase damage bonus to 30%
Ferocity - keep the damage buff forever
Swords to Ploughshares - in conjunction with pickup radius, you can keep a steady stream of incoming healing. Also synergizes with Witch Doctors and Demon Hunters
Into the Fray - This one rune, which already buffs all damage by 15%, further buffs damage through the use of Wrath of the Berserker, because Into the Fray generates more fury to keep it active.
(2) our ability to debuff monster defences (MoC/Overawe for 48%, EP/TFIW for 12%).Barbarians can debuff too. Threatening Shout. Reduces all damage done by monsters by 20%. We can further reduce their damage by using Falter. There's another synergy rune (Grim Harvest) for Battle Rage: Swords to Ploughshares which increases chance to drop health globes by 15%
Sure, Monks can reduce enemy defenses, which in turn leads to more effective DPS, however Barbarians can straight up increase DPS and keep it active for a very long time. It overshadows everything Monks have. Why would I want to run FiTL, Overawe and TFIW when I can simply run Wrath of the Berserker and destroy everything in one fell swoop?
And with both of those, we can come up with some combination of that AND a strong spirit spending attack (like WoL @ 1200% weapon damage of SSS/SA for ~2300% single target weapon damage).OR, go into Wrath of the Berserker mode, whip out my Hammer of the Ancients which ALWAYS crits, thanks to Battle Rage: Into the Fray and the innate increased chance to crit depending on how much fury I have. It destroys everything and regenerates a massive amount of life thx to LS.
I still have no idea why people when arguing our passives are weak, choose to use barb's as a base for their argument.Because we are also a melee class. The comparisons I made were both offensive and defensive related passives. They also touched on the fact that because Barb skills were more generic (ie: damage buffs are straight up +dmg, more crit, or more crit dmg) they are usable at all levels of gearing, not just low or top end. I didn't just compare barbs either, I also used Demon Hunters as an example of that same concept.
There is a reason why people play Barbs, and a reason why they are cheaper to gear and plvl with than Monks. If Monks were so awesome and effective while also being cheap to gear for than everybody would play a Monk.
Thats one of the biggest points. Dropping OWE allows for more build diversity or flexibility. Can you run the exact same skills I normally use (replace FA with BW) on mp10 without dying? I'm guessing no since you use OWE. So while you take that + FIW, I take FS+CS (since nameless or kamel generally run FIW).
Haven't used MoC since I dropped OWE. One of the main reasons in doing so, was so I could bring GL without anyone (including myself) having to lose anything self or group beneficial.
Because apparently its whats keeping people like yourself from making the change. Its the ONLY thing that its really got going for it. Saving money. I couldn't afford to upgrade with OWE, and I can't now without it. I fail to see how having OWE compared to now, would help me in any way.
It's just time and money. Geared out of OwE with about 400m of items on me.
And it wasn't an overnight thing either. piece by piece, then when I was happy (450+ AR) I could set myself free!
Somewhat made the item hunt relived again :D a side-step if you will.
I did it piece by piece too, except I was stubborn and did it all at once. I think it took about 10-14 days of patience, to almost break even. I'm sure thats not possible when your quality is higher, but you probably wouldn't lose as much money as most people think either.
gotaplanstan, let me see if I can show you what I mean about the cost of not using OWE at your current budget. You're helm is actually worth quite a bit on the open market. It's hard to place, but it's somewhere around 40m to 65m.
I see in the AH:
A belt with 157 Dex, 150 Vit, 54 Fire resist, 75 AR for 7.7m
Inna's Chest with Fire Resist and good rolls for 4.5m
Nice 180+ Dex trifecta gloves for 10m
An Inna's helm similar to yours, but with fire resist for 10m
(NOTE: I have to work with buyout prices here. Generally you could lower the price of this gear and your helm by bidding or being patient for better deals, naturally)
And I'm seeing that your Inna's helm alone is worth 10m to 25m more than all of that combined. Yet if I put this gear on you, I see that you gain 13% DPS and 9% EHP.if you use OWE.
Just using the current AH prices you gain, let's call it 15m. And I haven't even sold the other gear I'm replacing yet. I'm sure if I spent a little time on the exact items I could make you gain gold, EHP, and make sure that you gain more than 16% DPS to make it OWE come out to being strictly better than using the Combo Strike. I have five other resistances to try, and I can look at your other gear (Nats boots with any resist and 190+ Dex cost about the same as yours, for example)
I've done a lot of combing through the AH. OWE is just too useful a tool financially. If you view your character as a blob of stats, it just doesn't to pay to drop OWE. Unless your goal is specifically to drop OWE, or to gear a particular way.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, if it is. I haven't seen anyone else using your particluar three sets that way. Personally, I stubbornly wanted to get to particular armor and resist targets while dual wielding for absolutely no good reason whatsoever. I don't think I have to tell you about MrMojo's LpS build. But if you have a particular target blob of stats, it will be cheaper to get there almost every time if you use OWE rather than avoid it. (The only real exceptions I've seen being DPS stats so high that they cannot realistically be reached using OWE).
NOTE: I really don't want to derail this thread into exactly how you specifically could benefit from OWE. This is not about singling you out. My point is just that AR gear (like your helm) is so highly valued by the marketplace compared to specific resist that OWE has become the cheapest way to hit any particular stat set when you take gear and skills into account. (Your stat set is just one example) That may change in the future, but I haven't seen otherwise since I started combing through the Monk item market.
You're helm is actually worth quite a bit on the open market. It's hard to place, but it's somewhere around 40m to 65m.
Yeah I got it for a steal at 17m iirc :D At this point I'd say its the best item I have.
The belt I replaced with my Favor was 150ish dex and vit, 52 AR and 11% life. Think I got about 6 or 7m when I sold it. My Favor meanwhile cost about 3 or 4m so I made money there.
I think iirc the only items I have which were over 10m are my helm, chest, and both Nat's pieces. Everything else was bargain sniping. My WKL was probably the best deal, at like 980k.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 2/11/2013 9:04 PM PST
These aren't "debuffs"; they're simply additive buffs with wonky mechanics. Overawe + Blazing Wrath = +63%, not 1.48 x 1.15 = +70%. Ditto TFIW.
Anyway, just a minor correction.
The belt I replaced with my Favor was 150ish dex and vit, 52 AR and 11% life. Think I got about 6 or 7m when I sold it. My Favor meanwhile cost about 3 or 4m so I made money there.I think iirc the only items I have which were over 10m are my helm, chest, and both Nat's pieces. Everything else was bargain sniping. My WKL was probably the best deal, at like 980k.
The belt you sold sounds like it might have been better than the Inna's favor, which you're only using because it gives you the set bonus, which you can't get from your chest or pants because you have two set bonuses, one of which is preventing you from getting trifecta gloves....
Look, let me simplify what I'm saying:
1. Your helm is worth about 50m
2. For less than 50m, you can replace your helm and some other gear so that if you switch OWE for CS, you maintain or gain DPS, gain EHP, and gain money. You can gain more DPS than CS is giving you. (You gain even more money if you sell that other gear you are replacing. I haven't even checked what it is worth)
For someone not using 4 different sets, it is usually easier to see this. For you, I gave an example of a combination purchases that makes some money, but I'm sure with time and bidding you could do even better.
Firstly, I already felt I had enough ehp when I decided to get 2pc Inna's with the Favor. It was definitely an offensive purchase. To take it a step further, going higher cost, the difference between Favor and WH actually isn't offense, its defense. The difference offensively is fairly small, even at the highest end (190+ dex 8% favor including 2pc bonus vs. 9ias 45+ cd WH). Where WH really shines in the AR and life % potential. Obviously neither of those are anywhere close to being in my price range, but the point holds.
Anyways, if we go with your idea of switching, theres only 3 of the 6 specific resists on the AH which are comparable to my helm, and they're in the 30-40m range. Which leaves at most 20m. We'll go with the FR one that was 30m so I need a belt with FR now. The only one with decent stats (as far as I'd consider) is 2.5m and has these stats - 165 dex 72 int 163 vit 48 fr +171 armor. Plugging these items into d3up gives me these stat changes:
pdps 94.4k -> 84.5k
ehp 549k -> 638k
That leaves us with 17.5m left to make up about a 10k dps difference. Oh wait, thats not true. Because CS also gave me a 15k dps boost. So we have to make up about 25k dps with 17.5m now.
I'm a little too tired at this point (and going to bed), but if you can find me 25k dps for 17.5m I'll definitely concede that I'm wrong.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 2/11/2013 10:23 PM PST
The one I was using in my example was 10m
49 Fire resist
But I also could have used this one for 5m:
47 Phys Res
Remember, though, it's not important that an individual piece be an upgrade in every single way. The fact that you can now get high Dex trifecta gloves within budget (10m at the time I checked) will more than make up for a loss of 0.5% CC. (You'll never afford trifecta gloves IK gloves on any sane budget, and they will have 0 dex and no resists or Vit if you do find them)
You will be getting much more resistances now that you can double up on pieces like you belt than worrying about losing 5 AR while only gaining 48 armor.
Ok I got sidetracked watching something on tv lol. But if you're going to suggest something is wrong (me in this case), you need to back it up with proof. You suggest trifecta gloves, but the cheapest pair without any resistance, is 26m. So even if you want to do that to make up the dps loss of the other two slots we already discussed, you're going to run out of money before you finish. That leaves us with IK chest and rare gloves, which is also not ideal. The fact is, that a large chunk of my mitigation comes from 2pc IK's. You could make up the ehp difference by double stacking resists with OWE, but you won't be able to make up the dps difference the loss of skills and passives will cost.
I still challenge you to prove me wrong. Unfortunately for you though, I already know thats all but impossible with how small my budget is.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 2/11/2013 11:00 PM PST
Some of the other classes have **** passives (Wizard's got CM and... Well, there's also...) However, barbs and WDs have more feast than famine (pun intended) and DHs are in a good place. Problematically, many of the Monk passives do the same thing, some just more poorly than others. OWE, STI, Gaurdian Path (DWing), and sixth sense ALL simply reduce incoming damage without any other exciting effect. GP and SS arguably build well with MoE backlash, but since dodge is easily the worst form of defense (as it doesn't work on the most dangerous skills in the game) it's hardly worth mentioning. Also, they scale NEGATIVELY with both thorn's and MoR (though neither of these really work with anything at all at the moment, and retribution scales negatively with ANY damage reduction gear/skills).
Guiding light only works with MoH, which is epic **** other than for a 20% AR boost from a rune, since BoH has a laughably small radius, and cyclone healing breeze is a pathetic heal amount, inner sanctuary is pretty much never used. (However, this does go back to the monks skills, not their passives. Similarly, this doesn't work in single player.)
Combination strike requires 2 spirit generators, pretty much mandating you use DR:Foresight, which is essentially another boring passive on your skillbar. Also, as they buff spirit SPENDERS that three second limit does become a bit limiting.
Bacon's good, everyone loves bacon. Never tried pacifism, might be as useful as the OP says. Chant of resonance is clearly crap and I think we can all agree. I would probably put exalted soul in the same boat, but it may have uses. Resolve, great for group games. Fleet Footed, nice for speed clears if you are geared well enough.
Transcendence though, I'm gonna have to disagree with the OP, this is not so useless. With nearly 50% CC and about an APS of 2 you can easily get 27 spirit per second just from a single target with quickening. That's 1674 life per second, and furthermore life that you can "stock up on" as you store spirit. Great? Perhaps not, but I'd say it's not a completely terrible skill.
Unfortunately their probably gone by now. For example these gloves with armor as well for under 7m are gone now too. (I took a screenshot, and then poof!)
Some nice physical resist gloves to go with the Phys helm I mentioned for 5 million coudl be found on the same screen, albeit for 20m (so I'd have spent 25 on helm and gloves instead of 20, and would have to save 5 million elsewhere, but with the physical reists on the gloves, that's doable):
Anyway, look, I'm not making this stuff up. The 10m gloves were 182 Dex, 9% CC, 7% or 8% ias and 20-something % CD. If you keep an eye out, that's what you can get that kind of stuff for. I don't know that I can post that they exist in a popular thread and expect them to be there for long though :)
All I can tell you is I picked 4 items I told you about. They cost about 32 million, buyout and were on the AH all at the same time. I put them on your character via D3 up and you gained 13% DPS and 9% EHP. I'm not even shopping around. I'm not bidding. I'm just looking at the AH right now.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 2/11/2013 11:50 PM PST
To non-OWE monks, how can you justify replacing OWE with alternative defensive passives? (Pacifism, Sixth Sense,...) What advantage do you gain over OWE monks? None except for the fact that you have the option to drop that passive without much trouble if you get your EHP high enough not to need it. Until that time, you're just as good as your OWE monk counterpart whose gear costs roughly half what yours are worth.
The only useful alternative passives I see that are worth the upgrade at this point is BoY paired with FitL and Guiding Light. Spirit Spenders may find the spirit generating passives useful but the rest are just not viable.
Not against dropping OWE here, I just think non-OWE monks deserve better passives and you're not gonna get them if you keep saying they're OK.
dropping OWE was one of the best things i've ever done. it's made me see all the passives in a new light. i can see usefulness in many of them
are they perfect? no. are they ok? yes.
i'm seriously thinking i will end up dropping STI eventually too. just a few more upgrades....
i dunno tbh. I dropped STI very early on with the help of a shield and STR gears, and i was happy bout it. Then i ventured into non-OWE and it is a big step. ATM im running around without those 2, and my monk functions fine. :)
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