Diablo® III

L.F. Players that think Monk passives are ok

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02/12/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Immortal
Wow dude what type of douchebag wears a shield for Bells build? You need to get out of the cookie cutter builds and explore more options man...

lol chill out dude, people are just talking here, no need for hostilities. As far as your question, probably someone who is either:

a) planning on pvping
b) planning on using the stun rune on WoL
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Once you cross the 150 DPS (unbuffed) barrier as a MONK it's extremely expensive to DROP OwE and go for AR.

OK so I'm "trying to eventually gear out of it"...

I'm going to take these 2 items as examples b/c they are the hardest to currently replace (even more so than rings)

Witching Hour belt that's a 9/50 with 60 Poison Res (my chosen resist for Ubers/high MP's etc), VIT and ARMOR cost me 50M. A lesser 9/46/VIT 60+ AR belt is going to cost me close to 150-170M.

Lacuni's Bracers 9/5 with 60 DEX and 55 Poison Res (bought for around 70M). A 9/4 60+AR without DEX - too exp so I had to go with VIT on there while losing 1 CC - 150 to 200M range (depends a bit more hit and miss but that's what I gather)

So here it is...I LOSE some DPS...gain the AR for a cool price of at LEAST 100M per item for a total of min 200M to start replacing OwE with (some of our other "stellar passives")
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damn i wrote a ton but it didnt post when i hit submit... short story, option one for OWE would make me very happy... im way too invested in duel res to ever consider not using OWE.
Edited by homebrew4all#1509 on 2/12/2013 10:18 AM PST
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okay so can we get back to discussing passives and not just OWE and gotaplan's gear?
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sure... sti, I like it when using combo strike deadly reach-keen eye since the two armor buffs have synergies
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02/12/2013 10:12 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
lol chill out dude, people are just talking here, no need for hostilities.


I'm chilled dont worry, i'm just returning the compliments...
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02/11/2013 08:20 PMPosted by speedforce
Please correct me if I am wrong. But one thing that monks have that may be unique to monks (but again, I may be wrong on this) are a combination of skills that can (1) have massive damage buffs
They're damage buffs for a few seconds. Barbarians have damage buffs that are lasting.

Battle Rage: Increases all damage by 15% AND Critical Hit Chance by 3% for 120 seconds. All the runes for it are awesome.

Marauder's Rage - Increase damage bonus to 30%
Ferocity - keep the damage buff forever
Swords to Ploughshares - in conjunction with pickup radius, you can keep a steady stream of incoming healing. Also synergizes with Witch Doctors and Demon Hunters

Into the Fray - This one rune, which already buffs all damage by 15%, further buffs damage through the use of Wrath of the Berserker, because Into the Fray generates more fury to keep it active.

(2) our ability to debuff monster defences (MoC/Overawe for 48%, EP/TFIW for 12%).
Barbarians can debuff too. Threatening Shout. Reduces all damage done by monsters by 20%. We can further reduce their damage by using Falter. There's another synergy rune (Grim Harvest) for Battle Rage: Swords to Ploughshares which increases chance to drop health globes by 15%

Sure, Monks can reduce enemy defenses, which in turn leads to more effective DPS, however Barbarians can straight up increase DPS and keep it active for a very long time. It overshadows everything Monks have. Why would I want to run FiTL, Overawe and TFIW when I can simply run Wrath of the Berserker and destroy everything in one fell swoop?
And with both of those, we can come up with some combination of that AND a strong spirit spending attack (like WoL @ 1200% weapon damage of SSS/SA for ~2300% single target weapon damage).
OR, go into Wrath of the Berserker mode, whip out my Hammer of the Ancients which ALWAYS crits, thanks to Battle Rage: Into the Fray and the innate increased chance to crit depending on how much fury I have. It destroys everything and regenerates a massive amount of life thx to LS.
I still have no idea why people when arguing our passives are weak, choose to use barb's as a base for their argument.
Because we are also a melee class. The comparisons I made were both offensive and defensive related passives. They also touched on the fact that because Barb skills were more generic (ie: damage buffs are straight up +dmg, more crit, or more crit dmg) they are usable at all levels of gearing, not just low or top end. I didn't just compare barbs either, I also used Demon Hunters as an example of that same concept.

There is a reason why people play Barbs, and a reason why they are cheaper to gear and plvl with than Monks. If Monks were so awesome and effective while also being cheap to gear for than everybody would play a Monk.


Best post on the thread, couldn't have said it better myself, completely agree and that's what I wish more people would try and see (both Monks and Barbs) and the DEVS for that matter.
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02/12/2013 10:18 AMPosted by speedforce
okay so can we get back to discussing passives and not just OWE and gotaplan's gear?

You could've started that by posting more than just that question lol...

I'll add some additional thoughts though sure:

1. owe - I like their 2nd proposed option for changing it
2. sti - already been nerfed somewhat recently, probably won't
└─────── change anytime soon
3. cs - one of the best we have, and class specific mechanic too
4. boy - great passive for anybody using multiple CD skills
5. ff - great for farming low mps when defensive passives
└────── aren't needed
6. gl - great group buff, only change needed imo is a buff icon
7. resolve - needs a change, last I heard submission didn't
└─────────── activate it, would be a great synergy though
8. es - the spirit increase is nice, but maybe the regen delivery
└────── is low or could be reworked
9. transcendence - love how it works now, but maybe something
└───────────────── could be added too?
10. cor - its good, maybe regen delivery could be changed though?
11. tgp - would like something to be added for shields
12. sixth sense - most room for improvement,
└──────────────── from defensive to offensive
13. pacifism - seems fine, although something could be added
14. nde - seems great for both HC and pvp, wouldn't change
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 2/12/2013 10:35 AM PST
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02/12/2013 10:11 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
Dropping Serenity has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you use OwE. These are two completely separate things. For example, I am still using OwE, but I have done my last 4 MP 10 uber runs without Serenity. The only time I died was when I had EP on ZK and he died, and the damage from the explosion hit SB and 1 shotted me.

Actually it does. If you're wasting (yes wasting) item affixes double stacking resists where you could be getting vitality or life % (thus furthering your EHP) you (relatively, not specifically) could drop Serenity too and free up yet another skill slot.

Well, since I've already dropped Serenity, your point in this argument is basically moot, but I'm curious how you think I would gain EH by dropping OwE. Everyone acknowledges that vit is the better roll on Inna's, yet I'd have to drop that to get AR. I'd lose health there just to pick it up on Boots and Shoulders (would I even gain any in that scenario?)... except I CAN ALREADY DO THAT. I just can't afford to.

Seriously. You have 500 AR. If I dropped my double stacked resists, I would also have 500. This means that I can drop them, pick up Vit/Dex/Life% RIGHT NOW, without dropping OwE.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept.


Basically what it comes down to, is that you seem to claim it costs 1B for you to make the switch.

Yes, I think it would cost roughly that much to switch to OwE without losing any paper DPS and even at that figure it would cost me EH. I have looked in the AH to verify this, but it's just a ballpark number because some items (Amulet, Nats ring) weren't even in the AH.

I showed that using our current builds (well mine from yesterday, I was just playing around last night before I logged, don't mind HoL) the difference buffed is ~35k dps and ~93k ehp. Firstly, I think with the RD nerf we can both agree we've both got enough ehp for mp10, dps is what we're both lacking (me moreso, obviously).

The difference with wholly different builds is ~35k dps. The difference when your argument isn't centered on me using a build that skews the way you want it to is 90k without factoring in FitL and 160k if you do.

You have an additional 16% damage from your spec over me. And that's only if we're playing in groups. If we compare solo damage, you lose that. And while YOU always play grouped, I do not. So in a scenario where I am playing by myself your spec gains nothing because Guiding Light is no longer helpful.

Secondly, I'm confused how you think spending ~900m gold to get ~35k dps is a bad deal? I'm sure if I had that much I could surpass your edps. I'm not sure why you're using FitL for your dps figures either, as snapshotting is getting removed today. We're basically talking buffed pdps here.

Good grief man, my gear right now did not cost 900 million. I said it would cost that much to get equivalent gear with AR.

Look, you can continue to postulate all you want and point out that your gear was far less expensive than mine. That's cool. Congratulations. I can build a 100k dps set for under 15 million and then I can point out how much money you wasted too. But that doesn't prove anything for anyone.

We aren't getting anywhere with this conversation. If you really think it is cheaper for me to gear without OwE, please do some research in the AH and post your results. Use D3up or whatever you want to find a set of gear in the AH that has 170k dps or greater and 625k EH or greater. If you don't do this before I have an opportunity to do it myself, I'll do it.

Shoot, you can do it for any set of numbers you want in addition! 125k/450k. 150k/500. Whatever, you pick the numbers.

Prove me wrong instead of just telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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this thread has turned into the following...

-player 1 makes a statement towards player 2
-player 2 interprets player 1's statement as hostile and defends himself
-player 1 senses player 2's defensive posture and counters with further hostility
-player 2 mitigates player 1's hostility and returns that hostility with hostility of his own

can we get back to talking about passives???
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If you are adept at the AH, it certainly is cheaper to gear without OWE. And the higher level of gear you go, the larger the cost savings get.

At higher budget levels, all resist gear gets ridiculous.

Take a look at a case study.

My gloves costs 150M, Violentine's gloves, basically the exact copy but All resist instead of Physical (same amount of resist, about 40+), less 40 dex but 1 more IAS, (same CC CD) was 470M, and he thinks he got a fair deal.

See the difference? It might be an extreme case, if you would take time to have a look at the AH, you would realize the price difference is so massive, a passive slot would be an excellent trade-off. No passive can provide that kind of benefit to bridge that 320M gap, and that is just for ONE slot.

If i geared out of OWE today, I would need 1B to maintain the same DPS and EHP. And I would be able to get the 2nd best passive only, as my 3rd slot can be used for the best passive (apart from STI/OWE).

if I used that 1B to gear myself I could get end game bracers and a 4.5 CC mempo AND maybe even a better rare ring.

*Edit*

Or I could use that hypothetical 1B to buy myself a ticket to join that not-so-exclusive Rip Breath Club!!
Edited by Shade#6905 on 2/12/2013 11:17 AM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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As we are normally a 100% positive community, I completely understand that we all need to vent sometimes.

There is no real reason to listen to me but, I would highly recommend that everyone involved in this thread (me included as I just deleted a rather long post I was going to make here) take a step back, remember that we are all awesome and that sometimes, no matter how right you feel, you will be unable to change another person's perspective. (and there is nothing wrong with that)

-Druin, the happy monk
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02/12/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Piffle
Well, since I've already dropped Serenity, your point in this argument is basically moot, but I'm curious how you think I would gain EH by dropping OwE. Everyone acknowledges that vit is the better roll on Inna's, yet I'd have to drop that to get AR. I'd lose health there just to pick it up on Boots and Shoulders (would I even gain any in that scenario?)... except I CAN ALREADY DO THAT. I just can't afford to.

I never said anything about gaining EHP. I said we would both agree that we both have enough for mp10 lol. EHP isn't the issue or discussion point lol, its the dps difference.

02/12/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Piffle
Yes, I think it would cost roughly that much to switch to OwE without losing any paper DPS and even at that figure it would cost me EH. I have looked in the AH to verify this, but it's just a ballpark number because some items (Amulet, Nats ring) weren't even in the AH.

02/12/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Piffle
Good grief man, my gear right now did not cost 900 million. I said it would cost that much to get equivalent gear with AR.

I don't think I ever said it did lol. I was using your billion gold budget or estimate to show that with my gear taking ~10% of that, that ~90% of it could go towards making up the dps difference in our gear.

The difference with wholly different builds is ~35k dps. The difference when your argument isn't centered on me using a build that skews the way you want it to is 90k without factoring in FitL and 160k if you do.

You have an additional 16% damage from your spec over me. And that's only if we're playing in groups. If we compare solo damage, you lose that. And while YOU always play grouped, I do not. So in a scenario where I am playing by myself your spec gains nothing because Guiding Light is no longer helpful.

Because of the build you're using, you're actually losing 22% damage. And thats entirely because of OWE. If you were to drop it and FIW (since you're arguing solo play now) you would take FS+CS = 22%.

02/12/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Piffle
Congratulations. I can build a 100k dps set for under 15 million and then I can point out how much money you wasted too. But that doesn't prove anything for anyone.

And get the same amount of mitigation, ehp, and edps using OWE? And being able to run mp10 ubers without Serenity and dying an average of less than 1 time per run? Thats basically impossible, but you're more than welcomed to try.

02/12/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Piffle
If you really think it is cheaper for me to gear without OwE, please do some research in the AH and post your results. Use D3up or whatever you want to find a set of gear in the AH that has 170k dps or greater and 625k EH or greater. If you don't do this before I have an opportunity to do it myself, I'll do it.

You never said how much you spent on your gear. You seem to think you would need your gear's value + 1B to do so, so if you give me a figure I'd be more than willing to see what I can do with it.

You have to remember, the biggest reason for gearing out of OWE is offense. The one passive slot basically is worth a 34% damage increase (because you aren't going to take CS without having FS, which gives more dps than FIW minus the explosion). At least if you're going to be using GL as your third passive besides STI and OWE. I would have to do some math on the value BoY gives via FitL uptime (20% increase), but I'm pretty sure its more dps than OWE gives too :p

02/12/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Druin
As we are normally a 100% positive community, I completely understand that we all need to vent sometimes.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off argumentative or negative in any way, as far as I'm concerned we're just talkin shop and have two differing opinions :)
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 2/12/2013 11:23 AM PST
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02/12/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Fitz
Most efficient is MP0. You may need 5 pieces of AR for this. I don't.


Yea, ok.. You're going to run fire resit to mitigate the damages?

02/12/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Fitz
These fallacies are known as the "straw man" and "poisoning the well."


Just returning the compliments man...

02/12/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Fitz
That is also a straw man. My argument was that it opens up gear choices. Your reply is that you don't need 1000 resists. Okay... that makes perfect sense.


You dont seems to get it... You dont need every pieces of armour to have all resist. to gear out of OWE... The pieces that you don't have all resist you can pick different affixes same as picking double resist or not picking it.. Look at my gears, i choice to have radius pick up and health globe bonuses... Works wonders for solo and group play.. Try it out man...

02/12/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Fitz
I have a low tolerance for stupidity.


Actually i have high tolerance for stupidity i.e, I speaking with someone that uses shield for bells builds... Rolls eyes...
Edited by Immortal#6907 on 2/12/2013 11:24 AM PST
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Whats wrong with S/B for bell builds? I wouldnt want to use a slow Skorn, spirit generation would be a problem, bells hit harder but less bells, means more overkill and less room for mistakes.

If anything, a DW build should be the best, No?
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Id like to challenge those promoting the non use of OWE, find me actual upgrades to my current equipment for below 300-400M each that will allow me to swap out of OWE. You really only need to find what 3-4 pieces, you don't even have to replace my dual resist pieces, just find the other pieces. Put your money where your posts are. I have more than enough gold for the upgrades, lets see it happen.
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02/12/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Shade
Whats wrong with S/B for bell builds?

Nothing, theres absolutely no reason not to lol. No idea where or why this guy got that idea XD
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I was actually pissed I first used a 60 WD and then a monk and i was shocked at the passives. they are down right horrible compared to WD and Wiz (that i have right now)
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02/12/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Enot
Id like to challenge those promoting the non use of OWE, find me actual upgrades to my current equipment for below 300-400M each that will allow me to swap out of OWE. You really only need to find what 3-4 pieces, you don't even have to replace my dual resist pieces, just find the other pieces. Put your money where your posts are. I have more than enough gold for the upgrades, lets see it happen.

It would help to know rough estimates for the values of the items with single PR you have that you'd be selling as well.

But as soon as the server comes back up, challenge = accepted.
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