Diablo® III

How to Improve the Quality of Loot Without Quantity!

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EDIT: I forgot to mention beforehand, but this is already the philosophy Blizzard is adapting. I'm simply giving a suggestion on how to carry this out logistically.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7980249170?page=20#386

Too many items

I cover this topic in some depth in the upcoming Item Blog that community is in the process of getting ready for release next week. I will briefly say that we agree that too many items drop and we have plans to eventually reduce the rate that players see items, while also taking measures to improve the general quality of items you do see. The end result should be fewer items that are better instead of tons of items you don’t want.

There are a myriad of reasons why Loot Quality is lacking in Diablo 3. However, a large part of why it seems like most of the items we find are worthless has a lot to do with the fact that we're fighting 2 different systems.

Item rolls are nested in quite a complicated matter. First, not only do we have to find items that have the affixes we wish to have on them, but we also must find items that roll high values.

I'll give an example. (Keep in mind this will be an unrealistic example to keep the math simple)

Let's say I have a 1/10 chance to find an item with 3 affix combinations that we like.

On top of that, I also have a 1/10 chance to find an item with a max roll for that affix.

Now what's my actual chance to now find an item with 3 desirable affixes with 3 max rolls?

Chance to get 3 Affixes x Chance for Max Roll ^ 3

I now have around a 1/10,000 chance to find an item with 3 affixes I want and all 3 as max rolls.

Now what if I kept the chance to find an item with those affixes the same, but increased my chance for a max roll to 1/5

I now have around a 1/1,250 chance to find that item I want.

So this is what the players would like correct? A system designed to give us higher loot quality.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

- How to make it a possibility -

It's simple, you do 2 things.

1) Get rid of Guaranteed chance to find a rare with NV. (Everything else about NV stays the same)
2) Change the Magic Find system to not increase the chance to find something of higher rarity.

Now you might be thinking I'm crazy... But hear me out. I will show you that it is in fact going to benefit you as a player.

First, the philosophy behind getting rid of the guaranteed rare. Currently as it stands, rare items are not rare, they are actually quite common. Pre level 60 rare items were something that was pretty hard to come by. So before you hit Inferno, rare items were just that. Rare.

This is a very large issue. We deem most of the items we find worthless, because they're very common to find. So this solves one issue in the equation.

However, if that means we get less items total, doesn't this mean we're losing out?

No actually, because there's a very simple change to the formula behind how Magic Find works.

Instead of Magic Find increasing the chance to find a rare or legendary item, what if it instead tightened up the loot rolls for you?

As I had illustrated earlier, the reason why it seems a vast majority of items are worthless lies in the fact that we're fighting 2 systems. So what if Magic Find increased the roll threshold instead?

For example. Let's say currently you can roll anywhere between 15-200 for a given primary stat. Well, let's instead make Magic Find increase the lower end of the threshold for loot rolls.

If I have 625% magic find as I get from Full NV stacks at Paragon Level 100 on MP10, I will now increase that base threshold number by 625%!

15 x (1 + 6.25) = 108.75 (or 109 When rounded up)

So now, at max magic find, I am guaranteed to find stats above 109.

I have effectively raised the threshold on finding high level stats.

If we reflect this back towards the first analogy, this means I have now increased my chance to find a max level roll.

So to recapitulate.

  • Less items, more quality.
    • Less items are achieved through removing guarantee for a rare item.
    • Rare items will become rare again.

  • Change Magic Find to raise Affix Threshold Values
    • Magic Find no longer gives you a surplus of items.
    • As a result, you're no longer finding tons of worthless items, but very few really high quality items.
    • You are no longer fighting 2 independent loot roll systems at the same time.


Keep in mind this would only be the start. Of course you would need to introduce more affixes into the pool and raise the drop rates of legendary items so they aren't frustratingly rare again, but overall you can give us less items, but in higher quality.

No more items dropping from the sky, more items with value.

Basically, this is the end result.

http://i.imgur.com/cFvARGw.png

TheTias explains this much better than I do in this post here.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8088129006?page=5#85

So in case others are wondering what this boils down to in a nutshell, if I gather correctly here, Drothvader's idea turns what is currently a system that uses a bonus item incentive (for non-elites), which is what makes people think they have to farm higher MP levels since the per kill item drop chances literally doubles (100% bonus roll on MP10 white mobs) into a system where you get to choose how you go about getting your items and crafting materials.

That is, if you want expediency while still getting a chance to get an uber item, you farm a lower MP level, where the lowest level you farm happens to be where you can at least match the kill time per mob of the next lower MP level. That's your quantity while still having a chance for higher quality (you retain the ability to get max rolls on the affixes).

And if you want a guaranteed higher quality to the items that drop, you choose a higher MP level, with each greater MP level you're able to farm netting you a much higher and narrower affix roll range, but at the expense of not getting as many items per kill as you would on a lower MP level. To keep the system balanced, ideally the bonus item drop would be eliminated so the devs could more properly balance how many items drop on the lower MP levels vs. how many drop on the higher MP levels without distorting the higher levels with extra items that make a player feel the need to farm there.

One thing to note is that this idea in its current form is considered a separate remedy where itemization issues and/or fixes are not considered (that's something that has to be done separately anyway). This is not a be-all and end-all of ideas. It is a piece of the puzzle that allows one to choose lots of items with a smaller chance of getting an uber item per drop chance, fewer items that are inherently more narrowly focused and thus having a much higher chance of being awesome, or a balance between the two.

One might say "well, I still would feel like I have to farm MP10 in the end". And you know what? That's actually just fine, because it's "in the end". Just as you gear up and replace older gear now, which allows you to move to a higher MP level, so too can you do so in this system, only now you'll be able to choose between something you can more easily kill rapidly and thus feel like you're hitting loot piñatas all over the place, or you can go up against opponents that are harder and take longer to kill, and might not always drop something, but when they do, it's got a massively greater chance to be good.

Naturally as you find those good items (or craft them), you can make the choice to move up to greater guaranteed rewards without losing efficiency, since as you gear up your kill time per mob will improve such that you'll meet or beat your previous MP level efficiency, or you can simply plow through the mobs even faster with more impunity with lots of smaller chances to get that next great item. It no lnoger becomes "I have to farm MP10", but "I can choose how to farm and decide which way is best for me". As you gear up it gets easier, but it never becomes mandatory to do it one way or the other, and since both can reward equally in different ways, you can choose to "mix it up" and do whatever MP level you're in the mood for at the time.

Something to consider is that if the devs really are listening to us this time about itemization, any efforts they make on that front will also benefit you on both ends of the spectrum in this system as well, as basic quality goes up, while the top end goes up as well.

Find what makes you happy and smash away. That's the name of the game.


I would highly recommend reading it as it summarizes what I have proposed in a way that's much easier to understand.

Let me know what you guys think!
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Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 3/4/2013 2:40 AM PST
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Drothvader,

Not saying that your idea wouldnt work,depending on how hard it would be to code.

I do agree that its not the drop RATE thats a problem but more the drop quality. I think most players can agree on this.

Your Idea though is simply not necessary. In the context of DIABLO games, "rare" does not actually mean rare. It is basically just a higher "magic quality" than the Blue items.

For instance if you have that much MF at your equivalent lvl (92-95 say) in D2 you would find lots and lots of Yellow "rare" items that would be both useless to your characters, and valueless for trade.
And this was not a problem in D2. And it should not be a problem in D3.
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i just wish they put in filters like torchlight 2 where you can eliminate all the white items from showing up and/or showing only jewelry, legendaries, or item lvl 63
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03/02/2013 10:26 PMPosted by sheltem
Your Idea though is simply not necessary. In the context of DIABLO games, "rare" does not actually mean rare. It is basically just a higher "magic quality" than the Blue items.

Ok, but in this context for instance rares are already seen as too common.

I did quote and link the statement by Travis Day above. They already recognize that droprates are too high so I believe the change is coming... and coming soon.

I'm simply giving Blizzard a suggestion on how to accomplish this logistically.

On a somewhat related side note, I really think people need to stop comparing apples to oranges here. "D3 can't do this because D2 did this and it was fine."

The only way for itemization to be an issue is if most of the loot gained was viewed as valueless. At this point, it doesn't matter what D2 did and didn't do. D3 is a new game with a new set of mechanics. It's time to let go of the thought that D3 is going back to what D2 was.

It's time to get rid of the metathesiophobia (Fear of change)
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
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So rich make more money and poor less.

Again it will force players to play higher MP10 unless blizzi decide to not cap MF.
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So rich make more money and poor less.

Again it will force players to play higher MP10 unless blizzi decide to not cap MF.

That is inevitable.

The goal should always be to do more difficult content to reap better rewards.

Yes, the "rich are going to get richer" in a sense but that wasn't the premise of the thread.

The whole point is to motivate players to play. No matter what you do, those who play the most, will have the most. You can't change that.
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Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
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What Im saying is that it doesnt matter how much crap loot is laying on the ground PROVIDED that there is a decent(not screen bloating) way of quickly selecting the 1 or 2 items that MIGHT be any good before moving on.
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03/02/2013 10:42 PMPosted by sheltem
What Im saying is that it doesnt matter how much crap loot is laying on the ground PROVIDED that there is a decent(not screen bloating) way of quickly selecting the 1 or 2 items that MIGHT be any good before moving on.

Ok, this might derail the thread a bit quite early.

But I am very eager to hear some suggestions on how to accomplish this filtering. Do you have a method in mind for accomplishing this?
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Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
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So rich make more money and poor less.

Again it will force players to play higher MP10 unless blizzi decide to not cap MF.

How so, it would reward people who actually play the game, i.e the paragon lvl 100's. Farming lower MP's would also still be viable.
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03/02/2013 10:45 PMPosted by Drothvader
But I am very eager to hear some suggestions on how to accomplish this filtering. Do you have a method in mind for accomplishing this?


I in fact DO know a method of accomplishing it but it seem you dont want me to mention it(because it is in D2)
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While I think the move to higher quality items is a noble proposition, it's going to be difficult to prevent the mass amount of QQ threads that follow. If MF becomes a measure of "quality" and no longer quantity every player under P50 is going to feel the pain.

After getting my barb to P100 and getting rather fortunate drops for my light monk I started playing her. The drops sub P50 are abysmal at best, I'll get a leg once every 4-8 A3 runs with a sea of blues and the occasional rare.

Unless some guaranteed drop is instituted (killing 100 elites grants a 5 rare drop, every 500 elites you get a random leg, etc) I'll have little motivation to keep powerleveling, I'll just go back to the barb to capitalize on the new system while I can. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only cynical one with that particular mindset.
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03/02/2013 10:51 PMPosted by sheltem
I in fact DO know a method of accomplishing it but it seem you dont want me to mention it(because it is in D2)

Go for it. If it's something that will work then it's something that will work.

When I talk about "letting things go" I'm more or less talking about the systems that will fail in this iteration of Diablo. However if there's something that D2 did "correctly" and could certainly be implemented into D3, then it's a great suggestion nonetheless.

Examples of this include Paragon Levels and Monster Power. Quite similar to leveling to 99 and Players X. They were slightly modified to fit within D3, but they're still examples of great systems that D2 had that could be adapted to D3 and just hadn't yet.

03/02/2013 11:02 PMPosted by runit3
Unless some guaranteed drop is instituted (killing 100 elites grants a 5 rare drop, every 500 elites you get a random leg, etc) I'll have little motivation to keep powerleveling, I'll just go back to the barb to capitalize on the new system while I can. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only cynical one with that particular mindset.

Legendary items and set items still don't drop quite often enough for lower Paragon Level players. I believe the droprate should be adjusted to match a rate that will still satisfy players.

Right now I'm getting a legendary item about every 6 hours or so of playtime. I feel this is a nice droprate and certainly enough to keep a player motivated for the long term. The only problem is every single Legendary I've found has been worthless. (Gauntlets, Ivory Tower, Thing of the Deep ect) Basically instant Brimstones.

Now if I was to get a super awesome Legendary every 10 hours or so of playtime. I would be well satisfied.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
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While I think the move to higher quality items is a noble proposition, it's going to be difficult to prevent the mass amount of QQ threads that follow. If MF becomes a measure of "quality" and no longer quantity every player under P50 is going to feel the pain. After getting my barb to P100 and getting rather fortunate drops for my light monk I started playing her. The drops sub P50 are abysmal at best, I'll get a leg once every 4-8 A3 runs with a sea of blues and the occasional rare.Unless some guaranteed drop is instituted (killing 100 elites grants a 5 rare drop, every 500 elites you get a random leg, etc) I'll have little motivation to keep powerleveling, I'll just go back to the barb to capitalize on the new system while I can. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only cynical one with that particular mindset.


Huh? I'm a bit confused by this.

MF is a measure of quality. I'ts always been a measure of quality.

It's not the only measure of quality. Item level also is but, An I lvl 63 white item is still "crap" without the MF turning it into a Rare or Set or Leg.

So MF is the most important measure of quality when finding drops.
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Huh? I'm a bit confused by this.

MF is a measure of quality. I'ts always been a measure of quality.

It's not the only measure of quality. Item level also is but, An I lvl 63 white item is still "crap" without the MF turning it into a Rare or Set or Leg.

So MF is the most important measure of quality when finding drops.

I would like to point out that Item Level affects nothing but the item's max affix value threshold and its base armor / weapon damage values.

Item level holds no bearing over item quality other than the fact that it has the potential to be amazing. That potential is not guaranteed.

It's not like WoW where an item level actually tells you how many stat points are allocated to the item.

It just makes it so that if an ilvl 60 item can roll between 10-150, then an ilvl 63 item can roll between 10-200. They can still both potentially be equal, just the ilvl 63 item has the potential to have a higher value.

You're right though, MF is the most important ENHANCER of quality. Though the success is random and erratic.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
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Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 3/2/2013 11:22 PM PST
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Go for it. If it's something that will work then it's something that will work.When I talk about "letting things go" I'm more or less talking about the systems that will fail in this iteration of Diablo. However if there's something that D2 did "correctly" and could certainly be implemented into D3, then it's a great suggestion nonetheless.Examples of this include Paragon Levels and Monster Power. Quite similar to leveling to 99 and Players X. They were slightly modified to fit within D3, but they're still examples of great systems that D2 had that could be adapted to D3 and just hadn't yet.


Remember after a big battle with lots of monsters in D2 there was stuff everywhere?
Well if you cursor was not on top of an item, You didnt see the White or Blue or Yellow letters of the item name spelled out across the screen. There was just a tiny little flash where an item was on the ground. If however you Wanted to see what all the items laying around were you could press the Alt key and see those words.

This was convenient because you could do this after the combat was over and no worries about dieng and such.

D3 could take this a step farther. There is already a ping for legendary but they could also not make the words of the item name show up unless you wanted them to. Basically re-implement the Alt key for "rare" items only or another key for ALL items, or let the player toggle the names on and off. They could even do it for Item lvl, or char lvl.

This way our screen wouldnt be cluttered up with all that junk even though it is laying there if a player so decides to look at it. Dont ya just hate accidentally picking up some junk when you were trying to get to that health globe or hit that monster?
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I would like to point out that Item Level affects nothing but the item's max affix value threshold and its base armor / weapon damage values.Item level holds no bearing over item quality other than the fact that it has the potential to be amazing. That potential is not guaranteed.It's not like WoW where an item level actually tells you how many stat points are allocated to the item.It just makes it so that if an ilvl 60 item can roll between 10-150, then an ilvl 63 item can roll between 10-200. They can still both potentially be equal, just the ilvl 63 item has the potential to have a higher value.You're right though, MF is the most important ENHANCER of quality. Though the success is random and erratic.


I think we are in agreement , we just said it differently.

Even the best roll Legendary items are "total crap" for a lvl60 P100 char if they are Item level 15 legendaries.
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Remember after a big battle with lots of monsters in D2 there was stuff everywhere?
Well if you cursor was not on top of an item, You didnt see the White or Blue or Yellow letters of the item name spelled out across the screen. There was just a tiny little flash where an item was on the ground. If however you Wanted to see what all the items laying around were you could press the Alt key and see those words.

This was convenient because you could do this after the combat was over and no worries about dieng and such.

D3 already does this. If you go to Options > Gameplay you can set the function of the Alt Key to function exactly as it did in D2 by making it toggle.

03/02/2013 11:28 PMPosted by sheltem
D3 could take this a step farther. There is already a ping for legendary but they could also not make the words of the item name show up unless you wanted them to. Basically re-implement the Alt key for "rare" items only or another key for ALL items, or let the player toggle the names on and off. They could even do it for Item lvl, or char lvl.

Ok, so then when you filter out all of the rares you no longer see the rings and amulets that are lying on the ground.

The problem isn't that you see rares and magic items together, it's that you pick up tons of rare items hoping that they'll be good, but they never are.

It's the psychology involved with finding the loot, not how long it takes to actually find said loot.

I said this in another thread. It's basically like opening hundreds of gifts on Christmas day filled with small party favors vs opening 1 or 2 gifts that happen to be a brand new Playstation and a few new games.

You get less in quantity, but more in quality. This in turn will make the player feel much more satisfied.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
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03/02/2013 11:37 PMPosted by Drothvader
Ok, so then when you filter out all of the rares you no longer see the rings and amulets that are lying on the ground.
Unless you want to. And I mean have it actively settable in game not just gameplay/options.

[quote="80869711969"
The problem isn't that you see rares and magic items together, it's that you pick up tons of rare items hoping that they'll be good, but they never are.It's the psychology involved with finding the loot, not how long it takes to actually find said loot.I said this in another thread. It's basically like opening hundreds of gifts on Christmas day filled with small party favors vs opening 1 or 2 gifts that happen to be a brand new Playstation and a few new games.You get less in quantity, but more in quality. This in turn will make the player feel much more satisfied.[/quote]

Well I think both are a problem in D3.

If you DO get that new playstation, you dont care how many worthless pairs of sock you get. You just leave them laying on the floor under the tree.

Sure you would Prefer that those socks were games, but as long as you got the playstation its ok.
And yes it was a Pain when you parents hid the PS box and made you wade thru all the socks first. SO, SHOW US the big box that has the playstation in it FIRST.

Then we will say that we Love you for all the presents, even though we only really care about one of them.
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If you DO get that new playstation, you dont care how many worthless pairs of sock you get. You just leave them laying on the floor under the tree.

Sure you would Prefer that those socks were games, but as long as you got the playstation its ok.
And yes it was a Pain when you parents hid the PS box and made you wade thru all the socks first. SO, SHOW US the big box that has the playstation in it FIRST.

Then we will say that we Love you for all the presents, even though we only really care about one of them.

That's actually a more fitting analogy actually.

However, that's the problem. What if there were not hundreds, but THOUSANDS of pairs of socks. If you didn't think you were going to find that Playstation there, wouldn't you give up on wading through the neverending pile of socks after a while?

Right now the thought process is that you only care about the Legendaries (The Playstation) right?

So hiding the rares still doesn't help with the fact that they're not rare, and they're not desirable. Just like those socks under the tree.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
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