Diablo® III

Bring back the Skill Tree please

No skill trees! Re-rolling got old quick in D2. I played D2 almost the entire time between D1 and D3. Re-rolling was not what kept me playing.

Right now I would need to roll so many different Monks just for my "What do I want to run today?" farming if there was a skill tree. I'd need an uber solo, uber group, TR build, CotA build, group support, solo high MP build,.... I don't have any desire to roll that many characters, and I enjoy playing the crap out of this game as it is.

I completely enjoy being able to try any setup that I want at any time with my PL100 Monk. I put the time into that character and it is really nice to know that some update or patch won't instantly turn my favorite farmer into a crap build.
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03/30/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Urthas
I would LOVE to have the trees back :( It is what made d2 great and what made WoW amazing... but alas... braindead is the new thing!!!!


Alright, I feel compelled to chime in here when someone lumps WoW into the "brainy" category vis-a-vis skill trees.

*Ahem*

No. one. except. "bads". played. non-optimal. builds. in. WoW.

There was absolutely Z-E-R-O "customization" with WoW trees, notwithstanding 1-2 "leftover" points that could be thrown anywhere. ANYONE who claims otherwise clearly did not play WoW, especially not after Arena was introduced.


So much this.

Skill trees in MOP are now largely gone too, very similar to the way D3 is. Every 15 levels you pick one of 3 skills and each of them are situational, so you can change them out if you need to fit a different fight.

I am glad that blizz decided to take these games away from traditional skill trees, because they didn't add anything to the game since everyone used the same thing anyway.
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03/27/2013 04:49 AMPosted by Blade
It doesn't change the fact that there's only 3 or 4 builds that are viable.


Define "viable". I would agree with you except that you're assuming a game *has* to be poorly designed such that there are only a few 'viable' builds. You're also assuming that everyone is an overly competitive wannabe who will only copy the 'best build' so as to power play and not try out interesting slightly less efficient or powerful builds. This assumption is closer to the truth than the other one but it is really just a sad comment on people and how predictably lazy/greedy they can be.

Anyway, while more difficult to design and then balance (*if you wish to balance at all, you don't have to*).. it is theoretically possible to have infinitely many viable unique builds. However, practically-speaking, this number would be much smaller. While not infinite though, in real life, it is still possible to design more than 3 or 4 viable builds in a game. Technically, I'd say Diablo 3 has at least 5.. there's WW Barb, Cyclone Monk, Demon Hunter (more than one choice), CC Wizard, Archon.. there's more.. I still think Diablo 3 is in dire need of more diversity and choice etc.. but even a dumbed-down game like Diablo 3 has more than 3 choices..

I guess my point is, what is *your* definition of 'viable' and why should it be my definition or anyone else's here? Care to be a little more clear here?
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they will add skill tree in expansion which i wont buy.

mark my words.
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is it not D2 this is D3, btw there is a thing called builds that are like the same custom you would use in D2 for the skill trees. you have been playing D2 for soo long that you are just used to D2 skill then D3 but D3 has better abilities then D2 cus in D3 there is something called "Weapon %" where you get stronger the spell get strong or your weapon get stronger you spell get stronger. almost the same thing in D2 but this time no ranks or "points" you need to put in to a spell to make it good.
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I think the system needs tweaking. They need to make skills build up in dmg when paragon lvled with or something because so many runes are useless high mp.
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Skill tree?

Maybe even unique gear builds other than maxing the same values on every hero???

Get a hold on yourself! Too less casual.
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Posts: 3,088
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@ 3 mill source request:

check the front page threads. top 3 i believe.
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I understand why people want the skill tree back, but as someone who plays casually, it is nice to be able to just mess around. I don't mean just picking random skills and being like "well I don't know what it means when it says it stacks three times but that sounds cool YOLO." I mean the ability to use skills/items that you want to use simply because you think they look cool or you like the concept. I don't have this as a rule for my monk, but I prefer to use fist weapons. There's no specific reason for it I just like the look on the character. There are certainly better weapons but there are fist weapons that are useable. Likewise with skill, I like using Exploding Palm- Essence combined with Mantra of Evasion- Backlash and any Crippling Wave besides Concussion. I know it's not the best combination, but you can set off a lot of chain reactions in when fighting packs. So I have some basic logic behind it but I'm not going to sit and do all the math to figure out which build is the best. My final point would be doesn't the existence of clearly superior and inferior builds in fact reduce character customization. You're basically saying if you want to play the game all the way through you x number of choices for your character. If you don't follow one of these builds then sucks to suck try again.

So my solution would be add the skill tree back in, BUT have a way to respec. the character so that people who only play casually don't have to start over and over after they have put in the time to level their character up and then stall out in hell or early inferno. HOWEVER, the cost of respec would have a steep price. For example, enough experience that you would regress in level or something along those lines. As long as it is not gold.

I don't claim to be an expert about this or any other game. I am an expert at being a casual player who playing for self satisfaction and enjoyment. It's a freaking video game it's about having fun not being the best. If being the best is how you have fun that's fine but it should still be accessible to those players that just want to have fun messing around or playing with their friends.
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why do we need a skill tree? you can already customize all your stats and power up the skills you use.

i find these threads always come from people who understand very little about how complex diablo 3 can be
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The Skill tree sucked.
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As someone who played D2 extensively and who plays D3 much more casually, I don't mind not having the skill trees. Everything feels much more streamlined and there is still the ability to customize there, maybe not as much as before, but still. I don't see a huge problem.
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Because the chance is ZERO, thus is worthy of promoting.

And if we keep asking for it, they may implement it in the expansion set.


Your logic is, at best, significantly flawed. Asking for a fundamental design change post-release is akin to asking the sun to not rise, or asking every single person in the United States to not drive for a single day. It won't happen, and it's unproductive to try.

You ask for customization. With a fluid skillset, you have far greater customization than if you lock yourself into a tree, because if you don't like a skill, you can swap it out for something else.

You say that a full respec is bad, because you want players to be penalized for making poor decisions. While there may be something to be said for investing players in their builds, what happens if/when builds become obsolete? The current system takes into account the fact that tweaks to the system will happen, and that skills will change. As a result, players are not penalized for design choices made by developers.

In this same paragraph, you make a point that having multiple difficulties is a bad thing, but then you talk about how much fun it is to re-level a class, just to correct for changes in skills, or skill choices made in a dearth of information. This is a re-hash of your "penalize the players" argument, but in any case, is a moot point in a system of fluid skillsets.

You end your post with a weak metaphor for people using the Internet to find ideal builds. In a skill-tree based system, min-maxing is encouraged, because generally, skills later are better than the skills introduced early on. If, for example, you know that you won't use any of the lv. 1-24 skills later, then why invest in them beyond the minimum required to get that lv. 30 frozen orb? To counter your argument, I'll use another food-based analogy: even the most delicious foods get tiresome after a time, so people tend to want a variety. In addition, the human body needs a variety of nutrients to survive, and most foods available do not provide everything we need. As such, variety is both desirable and essential - both for food, and for skillsets.

--------

Now, since what your asking is not going to happen, and is futile to request in its current form, why not come up with something that adds to the current (not amenable to change) system? Here's my thought: Give each skill (not each rune within it) a counter. Once a player has 5 NV stacks, any kill that would generate a subsequent stack increases the counter on each equipped skill by 1. At specific cutoffs (say, 50, 100, 200, 400, etc), skills "rank up," and get better by some percentage (either increasing variable, numeric benefits, or possibly even adding effects) It wouldn't be so difficult to gain a rank or two in each skill, but if the difference between rank 10 and rank 11 great enough (coinciding with the number of kills it takes to get there), then players will be encouraged by the mechanic to keep specific skills. Again - skills would have counters, rather than specific runes. My thought on this is to allow for changes in skills due to developer changes in the mechanics, and to encourage some amount of experimentation. Now, not only are you investing in a skill, you're investing in the improvements that skill might get later.

You said yourself that a better model is to allow players to make decisions and tune their characters to improve their power, and this model would do so, without requiring a rewrite of major chunks of game code. As such, it is more like a compromise bill.

Your thoughts?
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No skill trees! Re-rolling got old quick in D2. I played D2 almost the entire time between D1 and D3. Re-rolling was not what kept me playing.

Right now I would need to roll so many different Monks just for my "What do I want to run today?" farming if there was a skill tree. I'd need an uber solo, uber group, TR build, CotA build, group support, solo high MP build,.... I don't have any desire to roll that many characters, and I enjoy playing the crap out of this game as it is.

I completely enjoy being able to try any setup that I want at any time with my PL100 Monk. I put the time into that character and it is really nice to know that some update or patch won't instantly turn my favorite farmer into a crap build.


Something I'm really appreciating playing Borderlands 2. For a very small amount of gold you can just reset your entire skill tree. Bing bang boom no brainer done.
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If I wanted to play with skill trees, I'd play PoE. Wasting tons of development time trying to revert back to skill trees would not improve the game, it would just make it different.
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I say make it an option. When they make a character they get a check list:

_standard skill
_skill tree skill

This way your taking both sides and giving new players chance to get their feet wet and experienced players a challenge at the same time. This can be two cents in an expansion.

Just my two cent suggestion
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