Diablo® III

Bring back the Skill Tree please

Posts: 3,155
03/27/2013 08:03 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
1. Show me where Blizz auto assigns our active skills/runes and passive skills. Then I would agree with you that we have no choices.


You're twisting OP's words or taking them out of context. Your question has been answered with the following mini wall of text not so much in the sense that Blizz auto assigns your active skill runes and passive skills. Bolded to make it obvious.

A: Reroll is not as bad as you think when you can have fun in the process instead of rushing from 0 to 60 mindlessly.


03/26/2013 08:47 PMPosted by FrozenSoul
ignoring the risks of making bad decisions that fail your characters midway

and I'll add, with next to NO EFFORT TO RECTIFY SUCH MISTAKES, FROM ONE END TO THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE END (D2 1 MISTAKE UR CHAR FKD D3 1 MISTAKE UR NEVR FKD). Other games like TL2 and PoE have that middleground because they both looked at D2.

Otherwise, we don't need so many difficulties, one is enough, we unlock everything without choices anyways.

So ShadowAegis, stop taking people's words out of context, what he said is truth. You do not, as a player, in any way choose how your skills unlock. Telling me so and others just makes you a fat liar, you'd be going against the website's skill information unlock per level, and the wikis documenting everything.

OP Said nothing about no choices in fictitious regard.

03/27/2013 08:03 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
5. If you really think that having respecs takes away the consequences of making poor choices in your build. Then try this, take a wiz and have all four shields a familiar and a signature spell and try and farm MP10 solo and tell me what happens. Will the existence of respecs give you a handicap where you will not get killed and one shot everything. I highly doubt it

^ doing something like this means you have mindless thoughts about building a character to begin with. full free respec is there to adjust, not to prove ridiculous "builds" viable such as holding 4 shields when you can only have ONE shield active at a time smart guy. Unless you're insinuating we're all illiterate. It's not like you can toggle each shield on and off as a hit comes in to have it perform its effect 4x on 1 hit instance. Able to do so would mean you're hacking.

I'm sure by common sense you can understand that when you can have only, ONLY ONE shield active at a time at any given moment, any hit you take can only mean. ONE shield will perform its effect where 3 others are off doing absolutely nothing.

If you as a player couldn't even think of THAT given the DESCRIPTION PROVIDED. YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY GAMES, or even drum up critical thinking. Unless of course you're trolling with the suggested build you provided. Then okay whatever, you got me congrats?.

It's about as good as saying
Character builder -> "Hey 1+1 = 2"
You(ShadowAegis) -> "1+1 does not = 2; it equals a window of opportunity"
Character builder -> "Uh dude we're talking about basic math(skills and their description) here"

Here I even made an image to show you incase people think I was making it up and complete BS.
http://imgur.com/Zx6ndP9

I circled it in bright pink just to make it obvious. Just in case you know?

As you adjust further and further, your choices are blatantly obvious as the some skills are completely useless vs. others and are nobrainers, so you end up with just a few set of skills that everyone ends up using.

What consequence is there if you can fix it at any given moment? Oh I died once pfft big whoop 0 penalty, time to switch builds that one sucked and will never be used again. Try again, repeat, oh nothing works? It's your gear then. Nevermind the skills.

If you didn't even have full free respec I guarantee Diablo 3's lifespan would've been MUCH longer for a player staying as opposed to how fast players play it and leave it WITH the assumption of no brickwalling gear check. Quick in Quick out vs. Long in and frustrated out.

03/27/2013 04:16 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Does each build you make play differently? If the answer is yes then it does provide customization.

Are you still left clicking and pressing 123456? If your answer is yes, then no each build is not making you play differently because that is the gist of an ARPG with an isometric camera where you kill mobs repeatedly just liek D2, PoE, TL2.
Theres almost only 2 different playstyles, facetank and crazy lifeleech with ultra high DPS, or glass cannon kiting in D3. Not so much anything like CC and wear your enemy down, oh wait CM build! Hit frozen statues... jee... doesn't sound very dynamic at all when your enemy is stunned 100% of the time.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 3/28/2013 5:38 AM PDT
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I would like a skill tree. as long as it only traverses along one branch without any side tracks.
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and I'll add, with next to NO EFFORT TO RECTIFY SUCH MISTAKES, FROM ONE END TO THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE END (D2 1 MISTAKE UR CHAR FKD D3 1 MISTAKE UR NEVR FKD). Other games like TL2 and PoE have that middleground because they both looked at D2.


Lol Kradisz You haven't been paying attention, In D2 I always had the chance to redo my characters. I could change them any time i wanted too. There was no permanence in d2. We used skill planners but they were pretty useless because once you decided what skill you wanted to assign a fancy name to you maxed it and it's synergies. I don't include the making od useless or stupid builds because this can be done endlessly in D2 or d3.

Go to a D2 skill Calculator
Say we look at the barb. You have your 3 branches. Warcries, combat Masteries Reset, and combat skills.Look at combat Masteries You pick a weapon skill but the mastery is the same for each weapon. Basically you pick one of six to max. then Iron skin , increased speed and increased stamina.
When you are done you look like this pretty much
Skills:
You have 110 skill points to put in...
MAX Whirlwind (cost 25 skill points: 20 for maxing and 5 for prerequisites)
MAX Battle Orders
MAX Iron Skin
MAX Shout
MAX 'Weapon' Mastery (depends on what your final weapon is)
1 in Battle Command
1 in Natural Resistance
You could tweak but BO and shout synergize each other.

Now go to www.d3up.com, register an import your profile.
select skills. You are presented with Six skills that relate to the six skill slots on the UI
Each one of these offers 5 runes
Then we have 3 passives.
I'm making a throwing barb so I'll pick Ancient spear an drop ww for Weapon Throw and use the Ricochet rune. Then a shout an a melee skill bash atm.
Notice if you play with the shouts in D3up they vary but they do not always synergize each other.
So you are not restricted as you are in D2.
Then passives.
You get three. Of course No escapeis a no brainer. But the other two have a lot of choice.

Should I drop ruthless (buffs my crit) and pick up Brawler (As long as there are 3 enemies within 8 yards, all of your damage is increased by 30%.) in hopes it will be able to helped by ancient throw because it will pull 3 targets in. Problem is will the damage boost last long enough. Will it play agau=inst throw. I need to try this.
These are decisions that need to be made. They are driven by playstyle and not by synergies. I haven't finished the build yet because I have many choices.
Which offers more choices D2 or D3. Why? Brawler of course will work with leap and charge. Really the possibilties are many.

Now in D3 i can try these in D3up and get instant feedback on how they work with my gear and other skills. Because the system is dynamic not static.

Why would I want to give this up to use the D2 skill tree? Tell me what the advantages of the D2 skill tree are? Can you give me any suggestions.
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D1 didn't have skill trees.... doesn't make or break the game.

Even with the argument that D2 seems "superior" due to skill trees (which is false), it still shows that skill trees isn't required for a good ARPG.
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Why does everything HAVE to be like D2, I know you are comparing, but for that time the way D2 approached skill trees and skills worked, now that its 2013 you would think that people could think of something better than that right? People have already pointed out that TL2 and PoE have found a middle ground to this, so why you keep living in the past? We are not saying it has to be exactly like D2, but that D3 we need some choice and freedom to make our character unique. All your arguments are based on D2 and that everything has to be exactly the same, it gets old, and no one really cares about what you say, that is why you are so disregarded on these forums.


L ol He can't grasp the fact that poe and Tl2 are the ones in the past. I promote the dynamic skills of D3 I showed him some differences an this is a response. I bring facts, examples he brings his troll venom. I mention D2 because this is what everone seems to be talking when skill trees come up. Poe lol a copy of D2 basically with a lot of bloat. Tl2 I don't even consider them in the running any more.

He is right it is 2013, someone must have told him this, but he can't step into it. Am I disregarded, I could be. If so I credit it to the fact that people like this simply can't grasp what i am saying. I asked for examples of skill trees to compare to what I said, but nope nothing except a d2 dodge.

My points on D3 were/are valid. I did not even touch on all the possibilities. The dynamic skills in D3 have a solid foundation. The skills runs and passives can always be modified. The strength is in the dynamic structure used

Show us the advantage of a static skill tree over the dynamic skill system of D3. You can pick the game.
Edited by DeadRu#1893 on 3/28/2013 1:17 PM PDT
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03/27/2013 08:03 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
is


what we LOVED


A long time ago Blizzard was about making GREAT games


That seems to have changed and died away


All part of the past, again and with all due respect, move on. Life goes on

Why do you need the skill tree back?

Are you really going to play hundreds and hundreds of hours to find the right build? getting upset because you went the wrong path?

Let's be serious, you will google all the builds and when they're all stablished you will go with the most OP of them all


No, just no. While I was angry with D2 for having useless skill and no error for mistakes, they did correct these problems later with synergy bonus's. You CAN have a skill tree and make every choice VIABLE, but perhaps not OPTIMAL. Big difference between the two. You can have adjustments to the numbers in balancing patches to help even the odds if something proves to be too powerful.

There is something mysteriously thrilling about skill trees. Its an adventure and a mystery at the same time, and I feel every wizard in D3 is identical except for his gear. And not only did they rob me of my unique character build experience, they also horribly trashed the gear and loot system.

Diablo 3 was the biggest hyped garbage of the gaming world, and it was also the game with the greatest potential.
Edited by IloveJesus#1307 on 3/28/2013 8:27 AM PDT
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03/28/2013 08:26 AMPosted by IloveJesus
No, just no. While I was angry with D2 for having useless skill and no error for mistakes, they did correct these problems later with synergy bonus's. You CAN have a skill tree and make every choice VIABLE, but perhaps not OPTIMAL. Big difference between the two. You can have adjustments to the numbers in balancing patches to help even the odds if something proves to be too powerful.

The same can be said about non-skill tree systems. You CAN not have a skill tree and make every choice VIABLE.

03/28/2013 08:26 AMPosted by IloveJesus
There is something mysteriously thrilling about skill trees. Its an adventure and a mystery at the same time, and I feel every wizard in D3 is identical except for his gear. And not only did they rob me of my unique character build experience, they also horribly trashed the gear and loot system.

Every Wizard has the potential to be identical, since all of their skills are unlocked, but they won't be unless they DECIDE to use the exact same build... much like if people decide to put points in the exact same skills.

I find D3 to be very refreshing because I haven't seen any other DH using the same skills I do. And if they do use the same skill(s) since it's unavoidable, they use different runes.
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03/28/2013 08:35 AMPosted by Gix
No, just no. While I was angry with D2 for having useless skill and no error for mistakes, they did correct these problems later with synergy bonus's. You CAN have a skill tree and make every choice VIABLE, but perhaps not OPTIMAL. Big difference between the two. You can have adjustments to the numbers in balancing patches to help even the odds if something proves to be too powerful.

The same can be said about non-skill tree systems. You CAN not have a skill tree and make every choice VIABLE.

There is something mysteriously thrilling about skill trees. Its an adventure and a mystery at the same time, and I feel every wizard in D3 is identical except for his gear. And not only did they rob me of my unique character build experience, they also horribly trashed the gear and loot system.

Every Wizard has the potential to be identical, since all of their skills are unlocked, but they won't be unless they DECIDE to use the exact same build... much like if people decide to put points in the exact same skills.

I find D3 to be very refreshing because I haven't seen any other DH using the same skills I do. And if they do use the same skill(s) since it's unavoidable, they use different runes.


Ummm wtf? Those DH could just click a button and use the same choices you do. And look up the word viable. "Capable of working successfully; feasible:" By making things based of percent values instead of static numbers, you can be assured that every choice is feasible.

Is it optimal? Perhaps not, but just because something is not the best does not make it nonviable. Even in PvP, you could beat an optimal build with a viable one if you out skilled your opponent.
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LOl Saga the troll crawls out from under the bridge. He can't grasp the fact that poe and Tl2 are the ones in the past. I promote the dynamic skills of D3 I showed him some differences an this is a response. I bring facts, examples he brings his troll venom. I mention D2 because this is what everone seems to be talking when skill trees come up. Poe lol a copy of D2 basically with a lot of bloat. Tl2 I don't even consider them in the running any more.

He is right it is 2013, someone must have told him this, but he can't step into it. Am I disregarded, I could be. If so I credit it to the fact that people like this simply can't grasp what i am saying. I asked for examples of skill trees to compare to what I said, but nope nothing except a d2 dodge.

My points on D3 were/are valid. I did not even touch on all the possibilities. The dynamic skills in D3 have a solid foundation. The skills runs and passives can always be modified. The strength is in the dynamic structure used

Show us the advantage of a static skill tree over the dynamic skill system of D3. You can pick the game.


Are you talking to me or other people? You know people just read your posts just to laugh right? Why are you trying to diss me in 3rd person LOL. Your points are only valid because all you do is talk about D2 vs D3, like i said after 10-11 years its easy to innovate upon such ideas. Other than WW and to a lesser extent throw barb, what other builds do barbarians have that are MP5+ viable? There maybe 1 or 2 more, but I doubt they are atleast as 80% efficient. Look at all the people on this thread that keep saying D3 has more choice etc etc, they all have the same cookie cutter builds as everyone else. You even used to be WW and got bored and now trying out throw barb. I'm not sure what you mean by choice, but if you look across classes most of the skills are kind of the same and have similar mechanics, and I don't consider changing 1 rune on 1 skill as choice. And really I don't think you played TL2 or PoE because simply you are a hater and every closed minded, you wouldn't want to hurt your Blizzard Blind fanboy reputation so you just don't even try those games out. Many people have and even outlined in these thread there are numerous people who agree that those games have atleast attempted to find some middle ground in this debate. You however seem to prefer being simple and simple things, unfortunately in real life there are consequences for decisions, so I don't see why there shouldn't be some sort of consequence for switching your build on the fly. Losing NV stacks is barely a consequence.

What is this dynamic structure, by dynamic are you referring to that fact you can change builds on the fly or whenever? Because if you are, do you not realize people don't really change their builds? Look at some profiles some of these days, and I bet 90% of the people have the same build in each class. You keep mentioning you are making a throw barb like it matters, its the only other barbs have to have "fun" with, but thats the only example you have, and I understand you are trying to milk to crap out of it like its valid in this argument LOL.

Anyways like I said go look at TL2 and PoE and see how they are doing things. Go look at GrindingGearGames youtube channel and look at all the viable builds they have on there. Freedom is always better than restriction, but I think that you grab your ankles and just take whatever Blizzard throws your way and convince yourself that whatever Blizzard does is best, thats the True Blind fanboy in you. You even said you played D2 for 8 years or something like that, and I'm sure you bought this game because of it as well, but now you turn your back on it, seems like the person you are.

D3 skill system doesn't have to be EXACTLY like D2, it can be better. You say there is freedom and choice right now, but looking at people profiles and their builds truly contradicts anything you are trying to say. Sorry buddy.


Personally I felt diablo 2's skill trees were TERRIBLE especially at launch. But I enjoyed them because they were in fact SKILL TREES.

I feel if we took D3's innovation about no static numbers and all percent values, implemented that into a skill tree, we would have one hell of a skill tree on our hands with massive customization and completely viable paths all across the board.
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I would prefer a skill tree as well BUT with respec options so we can respec whenever they buff/nerf certain skills as well as test out different builds.

The main reason I prefer skill trees to this current system, is because in a skill tree the damage from your skill depends largely on the skill points you have invested in a skill rather than weapon damage.

For example in D2 LOD a Frozen Orb Sorc's damage largely depended on the skill points in Frozen Orb as well as the skill points in the synergy bonuses. The only effect items had on your skill damage was with effects such as +2 to all skills or +2 to all sorceress skills etc. In D3 the skills are horribly gear dependent as everything depends on weapon damage.
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You guys in favor of skill trees just dont get it.

I had a lvl 90-92 (dont recall) WIND DRUID and he was awesome and powerful. But sometimes I wanted to go shapeshifting but I just couldnt.

I had to create another caracter.

what's so awesome about that?

Let's say I could switch skills around, change a few gear and voila! all in one character
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Skill tree sucked.
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03/28/2013 08:43 AMPosted by IloveJesus
Ummm wtf? Those DH could just click a button and use the same choices you do.

So? Doesn't make those choices any less important and entertaining. The only difference is the amount of commitment involved... which is why Nephalem Valor exists.

The real question is: Would they want to use the same build?
Ok, so maybe one guy thinks your build is pretty cool and decides to try it. So what?

"Oh noes! My character isn't unique anymore!" whha? Besides, even if skill trees made your character a unique snowflake, it doesn't change the fact that other people could copy your build idea on their next reroll...

And look up the word viable. "Capable of working successfully; feasible:" By making things based of percent values instead of static numbers, you can be assured that every choice is feasible.

Is it optimal? Perhaps not, but just because something is not the best does not make it nonviable. Even in PvP, you could beat an optimal build with a viable one if you out skilled your opponent.

Of course! Why are you arguing?
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I fail to see how reducing my ability to use other abilities is increasing customization.

What do I mean?

Skill trees do one thing very well, reduce the strength of many skills in favor of increasing the strength on few.

If I wanted to make the most powerful hammerdin in D2, I put 20 in hammer, 20 in concentration, 20 in vigor, 20 in blessed aim. I have no choice or customization options. If I do not do that I am a subpar hammerdin.

Now I only have a few remaining points to put into other abilities and I am stuck using 1 aura and 1 ability for the majority of the game.

As long as skill trees use points to increase damage then the only optimal way to play, besides using one point wonders, is to put as many points into as few skills as possible. It reduces choices.
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