Diablo® III

Buffs too powerful for 4+ players? Get real. (Rant)

This is yet another insightful post by none other than Nocturnal himself.

We also wanted group buffs (like auras and shouts) to feel meaningful in both solo and group play. Right now, you buff yourself and others by the same amount. We like that shouts are good and auras are strong, and that my contribution to the group via my buffs feels significant. But as group sizes get larger, the best player buffs would potentially need to be nerfed either by:

Making them to be weaker, and subsequently tuned around multiplayer (which is a similar approach to what World of Warcraft uses)
Or reducing the effect buffs have on other players (which is what Diablo II wound up having to do later)

We don't like the idea of these sorts of nerfs and want to avoid them as much as possible, which is part of the combined reason why we aren't eager to increase the maximum size of groups.


I understand you did this on behalf on the community, so im sorry for you taking the shots but let me tell you this is just not good enough.

Listen, you can write all the paper reasons you want, but 4 player cap is ten or hundredfold worse. It's not acceptable in any way or form. You have the chance to save the Diablo legacy still, even though the world sees it as over, but you have to make the right choices for players and not for broader audiences if you want Diablo 3 to be respected again.

Let us look into the aura thing.

So, their power is not a problem solo - you said this yourself. That leads us into a situation where you want them nerfed because they will make everything too easy in groups greater than 4.

Guess what, you can simply scale power of enemies in any way you like so that increased players is not equal absolute faceroll.

You do not have to balance around the party of 8 players who all have zero party buffs, it is okay to balance around parties with at least some party buffs when scaling monster powers as the number of players increase.

Quite honestly if you have nothing to boost your party in an 8 player game then you should expect to have a hard time, and it should not be so that the game is balanced around 8 complete nubs who do not even have any buffs for their party. That is not fun.

Do you understand what I am saying? You got it twisted.

In summation, we’re pretty happy about the size of four-player groups. HOWEVER, we know that the multiplayer aspect of Diablo III needs improvement and are already looking into ways that we can further incentivize co-op farming and efficiency in patch 1.0.8. Wyatt is currently working on a developer journal about this very topic, so we hope to share even more information soon. :)


We players are not satisfied with 4 players even if you are.

We players are not satisfied with your decisions on what is good for this game.

Until you come to terms with that, you will only continue to repel those very players who brought blizzard up to their prime. It is a slippery slope and you are on it. The whole world sees it clearly, the only ones who do not are, not-surprisingly, you.

You cannot cover it by giving us something we do not want. First results, then dev journals. They won't hide what is missing, and only the weakest among us are force pursuaded to think they actually want to be treated as mindless players.

Go on, ask around, i dare you. Ask the major gaming communities, ask those players who build blizzard with years of love and support. The players, ask ARPG addicts. Ask around all you want, I am not in doubt they all know just how much Diablo 3 went down the wrong road.

But we both know you wont do that, because you already know it, even if you don't accept it, and for some reason there are none inside Blizzards D3 group that have the will to change the fate of D3.

Every time i come to forums i find only more sadness and further downfall of D3. I really hoped this would turn some day but it doesn't look like devs have any clue what drives the community, economy and gameplay of an ARPG.

That is not trashtalk on devs that is reality, look around you, people dont want what you are twisting D3 to be. People cried out in pain, but with time even the cries ceased echoing.. Nothing happens except people become fully convinced they made the right choice to end with D3.

For christ sake, i even felt bad i told my brother D3 was da bomb right when it released... and i had to go correct that first chance i got a couple of months later, so that I could respect myself again. What musn't he have been thinking of my standards??
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 3/31/2013 8:07 AM PDT
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You might want to have a look at this blue post:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8197591084?page=2#25

Not sure I agree with absolutely everything you say in your post (and to some degree the way you present it), but I'll give you that you have some important viewpoints.

We're all hoping for some rock solid changes.
Edited by bjornh#2928 on 3/31/2013 7:01 AM PDT
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Speak for yourself.
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Yes that is the post qouted here.

03/31/2013 06:58 AMPosted by Paulszki
Speak for yourself.


And just for the record, now that we are on page 1, I could care less what a minority of leftover fans think about this game. Maybe 15% of you are legitimate lovers of a game just like this, the rest are industry touched, something blizzard games did not used to attract, unlike EA games.

The vast majority of Diablo lovers you are not seeing here are those who already facerolled or died inside and simply do not come here to these forums anymore, trying to forget Diablo ever was, and this is not even including considerations that Diablo 3 is not made for D1-2 players. There is not even any unique character costumization. None. You level one and that's it, class done.

Those that truely loved Diablo and the highthened quality Blizzard used to represent in all games are those i speak for.

The world has spoken, and D3 may already have been judged a thing of the past.

Just to get it straight.
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 3/31/2013 10:34 AM PDT
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I'm totally okay with 4 player co-op and I completely agree with the blue posts defending them. I didn't enjoy D2 games with more than 4 or 5 and I'm glad D3 took this better direction. I really enjoy how much of an impact I can make when there's 4 people, and adding more would mean I would feel weaker indirectly because of how smaller my damage dealt to the enemy's HP bar would be. It would be less fun.
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the game was created with 4 players in mind for the console. It might have not have been the main reason but it was a large reason. Also the games system can't handle more then 4 people spamming skills. The system already has a hard time keeping up with 1 person spamming stuff with random frames drops because of the game system, handling of physics / graphics, the online serve bandwidth lags, or some other reason. Some times I constantly get kicked out of the game with a lost connectio0n / disconnect, even if you change textures from low to high it doesnt affect fps at all.

I have an I5 3570k, 16 gigs of ram, 1.5 tb hdd, a nvidia gtx 650 ti, and a 100 mbps line. Yet when I play by myself the game usually is at 100 fps in 1080 p highest settings.. but there are spots in the game where my fps drops to less then 20. Even changing all the setting to low and turning off shadows, and turning off display any numbers / defense messages my fps stays the same at 100 with drops to 20 in some spots. No my card is not overheating, no my processor isn't overheating causing throttling, and no my ram isnt overheating. I have all the latest drivers and some reason d3 just sucks in terms of being optimized..

That's the main reason they dont have more then 4 players while d2 had 8. It has to do with how the game's system handles graphics or lack of ability to handle graphics. Example: borderland 2 with everything on highest setting physicx on high.. my fps rarely drops below 65 fps and that has way more stuff going on then any d3 scene.

then you take into account mob density, map size.. and the game just wasn't designed big enough for more then 4 people to be in the same area. if they made the game larger then 4 player parties then that would require more work to make a map larger.. you know the whole 10 minutes more to draw the perimeter of a map larger with random fills of textures which make sense.
Edited by MikeAkaJB#1122 on 3/31/2013 8:30 AM PDT
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All I want to do is join a game with 4 CM wizards and be able to Tempest Rush around their frozen mobs. Is that too much to ask?

But really. Do you REALLY want 8 people in a game? Lets look at some annoying combos

Pet witch doctor with toads X3
CM wizard X2
WW barb and nadoes X2
DH shooting whatever they shoot X1.

There would be so much crap flying around the screen you'd never be able to see desecrate, plague, arcane beam spawns, frozen or anything else. It would all be one huge cluster of chaos.

Not to mention the people that would be in town, or whining about someone using echoing fury, or whining about someone's gear yadda yadda yadda. 4 is fine. Brings me back to the days of gauntlet legends.

Games that aren't fun with more people:

Counter strike 64/64 people
Mario kart with 40 racers
40 man WOW raids (they were cool, but NOT fun)
Gary's mod with 8 people
Solitaire

I mean, adding more people doesn't always make something fun.

Do you have fun now with the 3 other people you play with? Or do you primarily play solo?
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Played a pub last night with this group:

zero dog wd
meteor spam wiz
cm wiz
cyclone monk

With everyone at full windup I could barely see anything.
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with a cm wiz spamming like you can see anything at all. I cant even see my mouse pointer cause of the coloring being not noticeable. Im saying they could have made the game 8 players and it would have been fine if the maps were scaled properly with mobs. People would naturally split up to cover areas faster for leveling or follow to loot gear. It's not automatically fun but it could be. I personally thought it was great with full game of summoner necros in d2. when most public games people complained if you even had 1. The way the games are set up now you cant even get th party youd want to be in a public game unless you just start kicking people to try and get the right makeup. if the game had a player limit you could also just make a game for 4 players.

I think it would be fun to see what 8 wds with 4 dogs each could do. dogs already suck for the most part since heir damage is so low and they get smacked around in higher mp levels. The game field of view is pretty small as well how it is but that tells you it was made that way for 4 people. There's no real zooming in or out at all. Even an old game like sacred had a zoom out and zoom in so you could see more stuff. The zoom out wasnt useful for battling and skills had a max cast distance for the most part... so its not like you could hit stuff off screen and not trigger the ai to attack you.
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I do like the Hub-Idea from PoE.

Just make Diablo 3 feel like there's a million people playing.
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Yea so let your weakness prevent yourself from doing something about it, right ?

4 players blows, and u know it.

That they then should use the mistake of designing towards too intense graphics that will prevent the game from being played fluently in its purest form, as the excuse for not making the basics of the game, is ludicrous.

All the fake heads out there, who are quick to talk about how bad it is, but then accepts that it cannot be changed and all is lost, even writes it around the forums like they hard. Yea, you know who you are. You just accept that now the game is fixed in direction so that it is permanently lost and is just as bad as those who actually think it is excellent as it is, in that you are heralding its coming and going out of your way to obstruct any potential obstacles like any reliable servant would.

You need to stop excusing them or they just gonna ride it out, never facing up to this creation of theirs. The base is strong, but everything down to intensity of effects must be adjusted, and most content remade.
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 3/31/2013 10:09 AM PDT
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At thread starter, who cares if you are not satisfied with how they run the game? Who are you to tell the developers on how to run the game? Were you there when they created the game? I know you wish you would have, but You Are Not.
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Screen clutter? Can't even see arcane beams with 1 player when they get cast right under you. Aside from a double elite spawn the game is graphically boring solo because the majority of monsters do nothing aside from walk and swing/fire projectile. Those times when 2 elites spawn together are the most fun because it's the most chaotic. You're not supposed to be able to keep track of everything. Being overwhelmed is part of the game.

Balance is a joke when you have all these MPs so that people just do a -1 or -2 from their current challenging level and then faceroll for practically the same net drop rate.

People who care about health bar movement are already screwed by the wide gear-dependent stat range in this game where a 3rd person can join a game and do twice as much damage as the others combined while running 10%+ faster. So maybe they should work on that a little. Not to mention that they could add caps to the games (voteable to raise/lower in game)and the queue.

Development should be about making what people want work, not finding reasons to avoid finding solutions and making a paint-by-numbers, spoon-fed experience. Cutting features isn't polish. Nice to see people are still out rehashing blizz's excuses for their daily $5 though.
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All I want to do is join a game with 4 CM wizards and be able to Tempest Rush around their frozen mobs. Is that too much to ask?

But really. Do you REALLY want 8 people in a game? Lets look at some annoying combos

Pet witch doctor with toads X3
CM wizard X2
WW barb and nadoes X2
DH shooting whatever they shoot X1.

There would be so much crap flying around the screen you'd never be able to see desecrate, plague, arcane beam spawns, frozen or anything else. It would all be one huge cluster of chaos.

Not to mention the people that would be in town, or whining about someone using echoing fury, or whining about someone's gear yadda yadda yadda. 4 is fine. Brings me back to the days of gauntlet legends.

Games that aren't fun with more people:

Counter strike 64/64 people
Mario kart with 40 racers
40 man WOW raids (they were cool, but NOT fun)
Gary's mod with 8 people
Solitaire

I mean, adding more people doesn't always make something fun.

Do you have fun now with the 3 other people you play with? Or do you primarily play solo?


Played a pub last night with this group:

zero dog wd
meteor spam wiz
cm wiz
cyclone monk

With everyone at full windup I could barely see anything.


^ this point exactly. Damage or scaling isn't really the issue, they could always make it harder as you said. But with so many people on just one map. It's gonna be really messy.

However, what it really is lacking is a sense of community. The social aspect. PoE solved the issue by having a "hub". The town is shared by all users, but when they go off to fight, they are in unique areas (each party creates a "new game").

The whole user experience in this game is anti-social. You log in, all you see is your own character standing there. You don't exactly see people around. The chat around in D2 made you feel like there's so many other people playing this game. In D3, you don't see anything. Just you or your friends who quit long ago on your friends list, there's no real way to meet people unless you purposely join a pub game. PoE "hub" design brings about an MMO feel. A feeling like you are surrounded by other players. However, I think it might just be too little too late.
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03/31/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Ochiboy
At thread starter, who cares if you are not satisfied with how they run the game? Who are you to tell the developers on how to run the game? Were you there when they created the game? I know you wish you would have, but You Are Not.


I represent the whole globe, I am the love of Diablo.
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People. You need to look at the greater picture.

In the grand scheme of time, these issues with visual effects will be revealed to be caused by the effects themselves, and when that is realized, then effects will be dealt with so that you can focus on playing the game at its best level.
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I see all these threads about how "we" the player base don't like this or that. While I am not denying that more people than just you feel jilted by the game, it's simply not true that everyone hates the way the game is going and has gone.

I quit for awhile, but came back recently 'cause a friend said it was steadily getting better and I have to agree.

TLDR: Different tastes are different, please refrain from lumping "we" the playerbase into a single opinion. Not all of us feel the way you do. Also, mocking other posters discourages open discussion in threads and should probably be kept as a post you type out but don't actually submit.
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Fix D3.
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