Diablo® III

You can't just "buff everyone else"

Considering HOW LONG it has been that synergies have been clearly non existent, at this point it probably is easier for them to just bring down the power of stronger classes. I mean BASIC things like DH duel-wield has been broken for about 8-9 months (yes, it did work at release).

If something as simple as holding 2 weapons (on a character that has CONSTANTLY been advertised pre-release as holding 2 weapons) hasn't been fixed to be viable for so long, the chance of them fixing synergies is even lower.

Barbs, and to some degree monks, at simply rolling through MP10 inferno on low budgets, while classes like DH have SUCKED since MP system came out. MP wasn't just release 2 weeks ago. It's BEEN broken. If they were able to simply "fix" classes, we wouldn't have these issues right now.

And I completely agree with you. There's no way a Demon Hunter would even entertain the thought of dual wielding crossbows. But this is a problem that all class weapons seem to have. They're all mostly underpowered compared to non class specific items.

In fact, the only reason most Wizards use Wands is because of the APoC that is needed for the CM spec.

They fixed snapshot on Monk, YET they left snapshot BROKEN on DH. It's STILL broken, and it hurts our class. I specifically brought up that issue on the bug forums when they were working on the Monk snap shot.

So just because monk snapshot = OP, they fix it. But DH snapshot = makes game play annoying, BUT isn't OP, so they just left it... It's the SAME issue for the 2 classes' snap shot mechanics, just that one happened to be OP. If they fixed it just because it's a bug, they should fix BOTH of them.

Monk snapshot was "fixed" because it was OP. If it was a bug, but not OP (like DH snapshot) they would have just left it as is.

Technically both are bugs and both should be fixed. It's just lazy development to keep ignoring it.

04/28/2013 10:15 PMPosted by TianZi
Elemental affixes and Black weapon damage aren't working properly. They DIDN'T fix them when they found out about it. As a matter of a fact they stated they purposely left them as is, and planned to address them at a "later time".

Yet again, lazy development.

Look at how long it took to fix Shatterbone. Sometimes bugs just go on the backburner if they're not gamebreaking. They still need addressed though.
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04/26/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Fatvirgin
Don't let Wrath cooldown while Wrath is up. Problem solved.


^ This is a perfect possible temporary fix.

It's actually REALLY fair, because what makes perma-wrath possible is a mix of things.

First of all, Battle Rage, with the rune Into the Fray. It would be a mistake to remove that ability because it's basically, one of our very few effective fury regenerating skills.

Second, the gear. You can't keep Wrath up as easy with low attack speed, low critical hit chance, I remember when it wasn't possible to do perma WoTB in the early gearstages, when most standard legendary items were expensive. Now most of them are really cheap.

To make that more fair, people who has gear to really keep the WoTB up, let them. But those who can only keep it up maybe 1/4 of let's say Keep Depths 2, not to. Because if they can't keep it up it's because of their gear.

So, if they remove the cooldown effect on WoTB, while you have the buff up (of course only with Thrive on Chaos), it would be more fair than for basically letting every single barb, undergeared or overgeared, to keep it up permanently. It would make it ALOT harder to keep it up absolutely 100% every run, you'd have to time your fury gain at end of each dungeon to have enough time to keep it up on another dungeon.

I'm sure there's a better way to fix it, this is just one of the many suggestions to make it more fair, because I do agree that it is way too easy to steamroll through most levels of MP10.
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1. It will have unintended consequences.
Let's say we buff Big Bad Voodoo so that Witch Doctors can keep it up all the time to compensate. Oh, wait, now we've just made Witch Doctors mandatory for any Uber runs. Ok then, let's add some reduce cooldown on crits...well now we have a Witch Doctor build that can stay permanently in Spirit Walk.

Skills do not exist in a vacuum, every skill affects everything else. Even WOTB itself is only too powerful because of several skills that make it 100% uptime, remove any one of those and it's broken.


So will nerfing, depends on how severe it is, just like buffs.


2. It will start an "arms race"
So we just buffed everyone and everyone is happy. Then suddenly all the Barbs are trading in their gear for Demon Hunter gear because the buff to Demon Hunters made them ridiculously OP (see #1). So we'll just buff everyone again...and now everyone's a Wizard.

If you just buff everyone, something is going to be overbuffed and ridiculous. Remember that WW Barbs never existed before a lot of buffs and nerfs, since they could not survive in original Inferno.


And nerfing does not do the same thing? The cry babies just move on to the next class to whine about (unless it's their main)


3. It will make the game too easy again
If it's well-established that for the current game, one class is too powerful and as a result that class just tears through the highest difficulty, buffing will just result in everyone being too powerful. This doesn't conflict with the "you can never have too much power" design philosophy because you still need to have some sense of challenge. Go watch well-geared Barb videos, they just kind of mow down MP10.

Games have to be at least a little bit challenging in order to be fun, and if we just keep circle buffing every time something is OP, the game will just be stupidly easy (it already is but even more stupidly easy).


It all depends on how much is buffed. Buffing doesn't mean too easy. It could be making the game play smoother, faster. And the most important thing isn't to make the game challenging, but fun. Diablo II was not challenging by any means but it was fun as hell.


4. It's just plain harder on the development side
The forums seem to think that code comes out of a magic box. In reality, it takes time and effort to code things and as anyone who has written more than a "hello world" program will tell you, any time you change your code you will have unintended consequences.

Buffing a whole lot of skills in a way that is both interesting and viable is a LOT harder and will take a lot more time than just nerfing the overpowered skill in question.


Sure, but good games take time and effort to make....
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Stop with this wow balance crap , Diablo isnt meant to be balanced , neither of the 2 previous game was balanced (ask hammerdins in D2) , and surely D3 doesnt need to be balanced , theres always gonna be an op class , and frankly you could get every class in D3 to be OP . you just need way more resources (gold/money) than a barb , but that doesnt mean you cant own mp10 with any class , its just dependent on gear and gear for the other classes is way more expensive , so stop complaining , its not blizzard fault not barbs fault that you dont have the gear to faceroll mp10 on your class , but its certainly possible (Zero Dogs , SNS , TR/BELL , etc) .Go back to play wow you freaking wussy.

PS- Zero dogs is probably the build that deals more damage in the game FYI , dogs cost 0 mana , and they explode for 275% constantly , its just expensive ( mojo costing more than 500 mill along with the other stuff you need to get).
Edited by DrGreen#1802 on 4/29/2013 6:21 AM PDT
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04/29/2013 06:18 AMPosted by DrGreen
Stop with this wow balance crap , Diablo isnt meant to be balanced , neither of the 2 previous game was balanced (ask hammerdins in D2) , and surely D3 doesnt need to be balanced , theres always gonna be an op class , and frankly you could get every class in D3 to be OP . you just need way more resources (gold/money) than a barb , but that doesnt mean you cant own mp10 with any class , its just dependent on gear and gear for the other classes is way more expensive , so stop complaining , its not blizzard fault not barbs fault that you dont have the gear to faceroll mp10 on your class , but its certainly possible (Zero Dogs , SNS , TR/BELL , etc) .Go back to play wow you freaking wussy.


Agreed! Now lets get impossible to kill wizards BACK in the game! Heck, if a mechanic was in the game, they shouldn't remove it, even if it is supremely overpowered. That's just called having fun.
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1. There is nothing broken about Wrath, it's awesome and works exactly as it should.

2. You can absolutely buff everyone else.

3. Your arguments are bad.

4. The only thing "wrong" is temporary out of control jealousy by very few very, very spoiled children.

Buffs will come and go, All classes will range in power over time,

If you are such a miserable little !@#$ that you will come to the forums to cry about something being "Over Powered" you will always be a miserable %^-* and no balance changes will ever help you.


Barb
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04/29/2013 06:23 AMPosted by Rooder
Stop with this wow balance crap , Diablo isnt meant to be balanced , neither of the 2 previous game was balanced (ask hammerdins in D2) , and surely D3 doesnt need to be balanced , theres always gonna be an op class , and frankly you could get every class in D3 to be OP . you just need way more resources (gold/money) than a barb , but that doesnt mean you cant own mp10 with any class , its just dependent on gear and gear for the other classes is way more expensive , so stop complaining , its not blizzard fault not barbs fault that you dont have the gear to faceroll mp10 on your class , but its certainly possible (Zero Dogs , SNS , TR/BELL , etc) .Go back to play wow you freaking wussy.


Agreed! Now lets get impossible to kill wizards BACK in the game! Heck, if a mechanic was in the game, they shouldn't remove it, even if it is supremely overpowered. That's just called having fun.
Yeah, and give us back Boon of Protection!!
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Those of you saying stuff like this are completely missing the point. WOTB needs a nerf because it's just way out of line with everything else, just like the original VQ was and things like infinite SS for Demon Hunters. If we followed the "just buff everyone else" mentality for these things, everyone would have endless resources and be permanently immune to CC and invincible. Yeah, that sounds like a LOT of fun...


I am not missing the point. I believe that, in fact, you are missing the point. In D2, there were a number of cookie cutter builds that were extremely powerful. The difference being that there wasn't any "one" character class that so massively outstripped the farming powers of the other classes that it was the "obvious" choice.

There are two takeaways from that statement. First that it is obvious that D3 misses on the latter part of it because there IS a single "best" choice in farming class. The second is that something needs to be done to fix this. The question generated from the second is "how" to fix this.

I am arguing for the "buff everyone" approach because it is far more in line with the way the game has been going (and will be going with the new itemization) than nerfing a single skill. It is DEFINITELY the more difficult approach, but it also brings more interest to the game. Why? Because rather than having a single class getting miffed that their "build" is getting nerfed into the ground (whether that is true is an entirely different debate), you have 4 other classes excited about what they might be able to do at whatever MP they choose to play in.

This game is in serious need of that "excitement" aspect and I can give you a very definite example of where it fails in comparison to its competitors. Borderlands 2 just released a new add on pack that increases the level cap to 61 and adds another level of difficulty. This essentially wipes out all of the "work" someone did to get their gear, but also allows for a great deal of excitement because there are now 11 more skill points to use along with a far more challenging mode of play.

D3 is behind the times with its ARPG model of "build it, but only expand the content once every 2-3 years approach." It is an approach of a time gone by. I have already spent 90 dollars on Borderlands 2 and received the game, 4 expansions, and one new character. Tell me again why this isn't Blizzard's model?

Giant tangent aside, my point is that given Blizzard's current model, they need to do things that will generate excitement. The LAST thing this game needs is to take the nerf bat to another popular and successful build in the name of "balance."
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Wrath doesn't really need a nerf, any hardcore barb will tell you that. If you think it does, play hardcore and farm the gold to try and buy the gear to keep it up 100% of the time. It will take a lot longer than softcore, and a lot more gold. Oh, and you can't just pull out your credit card for your hardcore characters, so, cheerio.
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04/29/2013 10:13 AMPosted by FeatherForce
you can't just pull out your credit card for your hardcore characters, so, cheerio.
LOL hardcore is also pay to win.
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1. There is nothing broken about Wrath, it's awesome and works exactly as it should.

2. You can absolutely buff everyone else.

3. Your arguments are bad.

4. The only thing "wrong" is temporary out of control jealousy by very few very, very spoiled children.

Buffs will come and go, All classes will range in power over time,

If you are such a miserable little !@#$ that you will come to the forums to cry about something being "Over Powered" you will always be a miserable %^-* and no balance changes will ever help you.


Barb


Unfortunately this is why we don't get anywhere with these discussions.

Play reductio ad absurdum with me for a minute. Let's say there was some undeniably gamebreaking skill, something that allowed Demon Hunters with 50k DPS to clear act 3 MP10 in 20 minutes. Obviously, this would need a nerf and hopefully the community would agree on it.

Now the problem we run into here is who decides what's gamebreaking? Would it be gamebreaking if the DH could do a full act 3 MP10 in 1 hour? 3 hours? Where do we draw the line and say "yeah, this is broken and needs to be nerfed."

Nobody wants their class nerfed and people make the dumbest arguments against it. I played WoW for a long time and seeing glitched out skills that literally made people unkillable being defended as a "L2P" issue was hilarious. The angry Barbarians need to step back and really look at what's being said and see if a nerf is warranted for the game as whole, and for THEIR OWN benefit. Nerf WOTB down to reasonable levels and you open up Barbs for a lot of buffs and interesting build diversity, rather than this spin to win thing they all do. The VQ nerf made Witch Doctors a lot more interesting as well, after a couple of patches and buffs.
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How about instead of breaking the synergies that are actually working correctly, the Dev team fixes the synergies that are clearly broken. Why not make Ballistics a good passive to even use? Rework the Wizard spells so that Conflagration is actually useful.

Make a ranged class even playable without having to face tank everything.


Considering HOW LONG it has been that synergies have been clearly non existent, at this point it probably is easier for them to just bring down the power of stronger classes. I mean BASIC things like DH duel-wield has been broken for about 8-9 months (yes, it did work at release).

If something as simple as holding 2 weapons (on a character that has CONSTANTLY been advertised pre-release as holding 2 weapons) hasn't been fixed to be viable for so long, the chance of them fixing synergies is even lower.

Barbs, and to some degree monks, at simply rolling through MP10 inferno on low budgets, while classes like DH have SUCKED since MP system came out. MP wasn't just release 2 weeks ago. It's BEEN broken. If they were able to simply "fix" classes, we wouldn't have these issues right now.

04/27/2013 08:03 PMPosted by Drothvader
Snapshot nerf was to fix a bug... WotB is not bugged...


They fixed snapshot on Monk, YET they left snapshot BROKEN on DH. It's STILL broken, and it hurts our class. I specifically brought up that issue on the bug forums when they were working on the Monk snap shot.

So just because monk snapshot = OP, they fix it. But DH snapshot = makes game play annoying, BUT isn't OP, so they just left it... It's the SAME issue for the 2 classes' snap shot mechanics, just that one happened to be OP. If they fixed it just because it's a bug, they should fix BOTH of them.

Monk snapshot was "fixed" because it was OP. If it was a bug, but not OP (like DH snapshot) they would have just left it as is.

04/27/2013 08:03 PMPosted by Drothvader
Lastly, if the duration extension of WotB was a problem, it should have been nerfed a year ago. If in fact it isn't working correctly, the developers should have fixed it in 1.0.3 instead of doing nothing.


Elemental affixes and Black weapon damage aren't working properly. They DIDN'T fix them when they found out about it. As a matter of a fact they stated they purposely left them as is, and planned to address them at a "later time".


Sorry to say this.

But thats such an disgusting attitude. Take it as offense if you want. I dont care.

But seriuosly now.

Because Blizzard cant figure out a way to get the BASICs right (like between dual wield and twohand which is also true for the rest of the classes not just DHs, try making twohand builds viable for barbs and monks not using a godlike skorn and see how far you can get) there should be "nerfs" to WotB.

Wow.

I am spechless. Seriously. Call me biased. Because I am. I like playing a barb. Because I hate the CC effects of this game, they are very bad designed, they are anoying not a challange, arcane is a challange, desecrator is a challange, but beeing chain frozen? Not in my eyes, and some fights can happen to end in VERY chaotic situations on higher MP levels with an elite that has horde, fast, frozen, jailer and other stupid stuff where you spend literaly half of the fight avoiding only those stupid affixes instead of FIGHTING the tmob.

its not the fault of the Barb that its an solid class with great skills and gear choices that Blizzard cant figure it out how to do it for some of the other classes.

Because Blizz cant figure out fun and nice synergies for other classes ... we have to get one of the really good ones out of the game ...

THAT will sure increase build diversity!

04/29/2013 08:31 AMPosted by Fayld
Those of you saying stuff like this are completely missing the point. WOTB needs a nerf because it's just way out of line with everything else, just like the original VQ was and things like infinite SS for Demon Hunters. If we followed the "just buff everyone else" mentality for these things, everyone would have endless resources and be permanently immune to CC and invincible. Yeah, that sounds like a LOT of fun...


I am not missing the point. I believe that, in fact, you are missing the point. In D2, there were a number of cookie cutter builds that were extremely powerful. The difference being that there wasn't any "one" character class that so massively outstripped the farming powers of the other classes that it was the "obvious" choice.

Did you even played Diablo 2? Doesnt seems like that ...

I gues you didnt had an MF sorc? Or Pala? Just for farming? Many of us did. And it was not a problem. Show me char that can do faster runs then a sorc that is geared for that run and STILL have around 300MF. Like in doing Meph or Pindle runs.

Like others nicely said.

This isnt WoW.

This is Diablo.
Edited by CrniVuk#2227 on 4/29/2013 12:06 PM PDT
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04/26/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Zoid
Remember that WW Barbs never existed before a lot of buffs and nerfs, since they could not survive in original Inferno.


Thats not right, WW barb could survive back then, especially with the original sprint proc rate, that gave immense amounts of LS, ppl just didnt know the build.
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04/29/2013 12:00 PMPosted by CrniVuk
I gues you didnt had an MF sorc? Or Pala? Just for farming? Many of us did. And it was not a problem. Show me char that can do faster runs then a sorc that is geared for that run and STILL have around 300MF. Like in doing Meph or Pindle runs


And another fool that doesn't get my point. I am not arguing that there weren't "best" characters in D2. I am arguing that they were close enough that if you wanted to run a wearwolf spec'd fury druid, you could run it at max level and farm very quickly. That is the difference. In D3, you play a barb or it isn't close.

Also, if you had bothered reading my entire book, you would have seen that I am DEFENDING keeping WOTB the same and buffing the other classes to allow smoother runs out of other classes.

And as for whether I played D2, I was around before they nerfed the explodecro spec which was, hands down, the GREATEST spec of all time on that game. Wait wait, remember the tweaker sorc? You know, before they nerfed the cast rate on frozen orb (in that case, it wast justified given the frame rate issues people were having). Javazon / bowazon what? But you know what my favorite toon was? A WW dagger baba. Yup, a gimped spec.

Next...
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No you didnt payed attention. Show me the druid that is effectively beating an MF sorc. Please do. I am really curious what you will come up with.

I played D2 for a very long time. And While I sure dont know EVERYTHING, I know so much. Many of us had clear "farming builds". And the druid was not among them. neither was the assasin or amazon. And I will tell you that I used an map hack back then with my sorc. I was a lot younger and didnt cared about anything really. And a lot of people did the same.

So please, dont tell me your "werfwolf druid" character was just as efficient in farming. Next you tell me the smiter didnt eat Ubers for brakefast.

*Edit
Maybe I am talking to the wrong person. But the way how quotes in this forum work ... its so confusing sometimes.
Edited by CrniVuk#2227 on 4/29/2013 2:54 PM PDT
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No you didnt payed attention. Show me the druid that is effectively beating an MF sorc. Please do. I am really curious what you will come up with.

I played D2 for a very long time. And While I sure dont know EVERYTHING, I know so much. Many of us had clear "farming builds". And the druid was not among them. neither was the assasin or amazon. And I will tell you that I used an map hack back then with my sorc. I was a lot younger and didnt cared about anything really. And a lot of people did the same.

So please, dont tell me your "werfwolf druid" character was just as efficient in farming. Next you tell me the smiter didnt eat Ubers for brakefast.


I think you need to lern2read. I am not saying it was as efficient. I am saying that it was close enough that it wasn't "required" for players to run a sorc or a hammerdin to farm efficiently. Gyawd, I hate arguing with people who don't understand the difference between "close to" and OMFG IT R EXACTLY THE SAME.

And for the F'n record, the ONLY reason the sorc was more efficient was due to it being the only class with teleport. Personally, I preferred to farm tandem. Sorc finds it, fury druid does the dirty work and the sorc finishes. But hey, you know better right?
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Lol we aren't playing D2 here if we were there would be threads about "nerf teleport." Which they actually did in D3, the devs knew that Sorc tele was just way too Op and broken in a multiplayer game. Hence they gave the Wizard a cooldown on their teleport.
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TLDR;

Take the typically fat murican lazy way out and "fix" the only character they got right in this game
Edited by FallenSouls#1868 on 4/29/2013 4:45 PM PDT
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TLDR;

Take the typically fat murican lazy way out and "fix" the only character they got right in this game
They actually got them wrong. Unlimited resources, perma-freeze, cc immunity, hyper fast gameplay, all without much cost. This looks broken to me.
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TLDR;

Take the typically fat murican lazy way out and "fix" the only character they got right in this game
They actually got them wrong. Unlimited resources, perma-freeze, cc immunity, hyper fast gameplay, all without much cost. This looks broken to me.


that is diablo. This isnt LoL or WoW
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