Diablo® III

Pros outweigh the Cons for a D3 Ladder

This is not going to be the most comprehensive post and too much in detail but please, i'd like to see peoples comments to this.

Ladder benefits outweight not having one. Period.

1. Gives those who like to compete a chance to with a ladder.
2. Removes items from the economy every so often, to include any dupes or an abundance of a certain item
3. Wipes the economy clean.
4. Items become valueable again even if just for a little bit.
5. makes the game feel new and fresh, for some, for me it certainly did.
6. You do not "lose" anything when on non ladder. You bought from the RMAH? Doesn't matter, your character is still there, nothing lost.
7. Blizzard makes MORE MONEY from the RMAH. New ladder, new items to sell again, more profit for blizzard AND the sellers!

I could add many more but Twins game is on. I see almost NO negative effects for having a ladder, literally everyone profits on every level. Period. The only excuse or anit- ladder comment I saw was due to the RMAH, thats it. But again, it benefits the RMAH on blizzard and seller side.

If someone has a counter to this, besides the RMAH, please let me know.
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I agree but if people spent real money probably would be really upset. I loved the fresh start on D2 ladder resets. I feel they will try a bunch more things before they decide to add ladder but there will have to be one to keep the game alive
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Ignorant post here, but what was the goal of the ladder? How did you win it?
Was it based on your gear score at the end of the ladder?
And when the ladder reset, did your ladder character get stripped of all equipment entirely? Or was there a base level of equipment toons started at after the ladder?
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Ignorant post here, but what was the goal of the ladder? How did you win it?
Was it based on your gear score at the end of the ladder?
And when the ladder reset, did your ladder character get stripped of all equipment entirely? Or was there a base level of equipment toons started at after the ladder?


Ladder in D2 was essentially everyone starts at level 1. No gear nothing it is like a brand new account. So Season 1 ladder everyone is level 1 with nothing. In diablo 2 it was a mad dash for level 99. Assuming that is what you wanted to do. I myself just made a mad dash for hell mfed like a boss for days. Geared up my characters for PvP and waiting for everyone to catch up and then PvP.

So now that Season 1 ends the ladder is done. Everything you have done gets moved to non ladder. YOU KEEP EVERYTHING. YOUR CHARACTER YOUR ITEMS EVERYTHING! So if you would spend money on RMAH for d3 you still get to keep your items and character.
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Ignorant post here, but what was the goal of the ladder? How did you win it?
Was it based on your gear score at the end of the ladder?
And when the ladder reset, did your ladder character get stripped of all equipment entirely? Or was there a base level of equipment toons started at after the ladder?


The "winner" was the person with the most exp, which wouldn't make sense since most people would end up max level in D3. The only real point would be the occasional character wipe. And any ladder characters got moved to non-ladder.
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Ignorant post here, but what was the goal of the ladder? How did you win it?
Was it based on your gear score at the end of the ladder?
And when the ladder reset, did your ladder character get stripped of all equipment entirely? Or was there a base level of equipment toons started at after the ladder?


The "winner" was the person with the most exp, which wouldn't make sense since most people would end up max level in D3. The only real point would be the occasional character wipe. And any ladder characters got moved to non-ladder.


I am assuming for D3 paragon level 100 would be Diablo 2s 99. For most people the point of ladder was the reset of the game being fresh. Everyone is on equal footing and it is a mad dash to the end. Like I said in my previous point the end is different for everyone. I tried for 99 once, and I burned out at 96. Which is maybe half way.
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like I said the only "con" I saw posted in some earlier threads was the RMAH. If some say spent $250 the week before the reset of the ladder, then it puts them to NL, they may be upset. But the thing is, NL is a great way to keep the best items you've ever found and upgrade with perfect things. Moving to NL would in no way delete anything, for those who didn't play on the D2 one.

They could actually make the ladder without a GAH, RMAH, or both. I'd prefer to keep them as the game stands now (all though I'd rather have a trading post and lobbies to trade instead of a GAH).

Ladder helps with everything. Dupes, items flooding the economy, feeling of being stale...etc

are there any non propents of a ladder? Keep in mind you wouldn't have to participate in one. No one I have ever known had issues with it in D2.
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Sounds fun. If it's completely voluntary, I don't see the harm. Anyone who willingly participated in the ladder would have to be accepting of any consequences (ladder ending before they are personally ready).
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It won't help anything other than force you to do what you clearly can't handle doing under your own will power, which is starting fresh.

The ladder system was an exercise in futility and a failed experiment. They created it to have a place where they could press a button and dump everything to keep the constant duping in check and they forced people to play it by offering ladder exclusive items/runewords. It did NOT work. Ladder rune packs were available for sale within 4 days of a new ladder season starting, all it took was one bot finding the right rune and the duping started all over again. They were forced to create an in-game event that required the most duped item in the game to be vendored, and it was constantly happening on the ladder. In the end, all it accomplished was promoting botting and duping for the profits to be had from idiots who need to be #1 in the new season.

That being said, you have the power to do what you want already. All you have to do is stop being a lazy bum and get together with all of the like-minded "I love ladder" folks, make a simple social website where you can congregate and organize your "ladder" seasons. You could even have a list that keeps track of peoples levels and create your own barter system to facilitate trading between other ladder players. Then it's just a matter of following the rules of your ladder.

No one is stopping you except for you.
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Ladder in D2 was essentially everyone starts at level 1. No gear nothing it is like a brand new account.

We made new accounts, how do you do that on D3?
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SIgh...

Well, at least there is one person against it.

It won't help anything other than force you to do what you clearly can't handle doing under your own will power, which is starting fresh.


How does starting my own character at level 1 for each class just once (or how ever many slots there are) keep me on pace with my peers, if I so choose to want to keep pace? You are limited in how many characters you can make (in terms of actual characters slots). I think you completely missed the point of this.

The ladder system was an exercise in futility and a failed experiment.


Its your personal opinion granted but I don't see it being a failure, at all.

They created it to have a place where they could press a button and dump everything to keep the constant duping in check and they forced people to play it by offering ladder exclusive items/runewords. It did NOT work.

I beg to differ. No one was forced to play ladder, a good bit of people never played it. The clans and duelers were mainly on NL. Its your opinion again that it did not work. The amount of active players on a 10 year old game would tell me otherwise.

Ladder rune packs were available for sale within 4 days of a new ladder season starting, all it took was one bot finding the right rune and the duping started all over again. They were forced to create an in-game event that required the most duped item in the game to be vendored, and it was constantly happening on the ladder. In the end, all it accomplished was promoting botting and duping for the profits to be had from idiots who need to be #1 in the new season.


There will ALWAYS be duping, cheating, botting, hacking and exploting in games such as these. You have to be simple-minded or naive to think otherwise. It actually pains me to see people saying why doesn't blizzard do somewthing about botters and dupes. THEY DO. It just that these hackers and dupers can spend more time to find a way to cheat the system and make real money from it. They are always one step ahead. Sad but true.

So, right now D3 has no ladder and there are duped items and LOTS of botters. There is no need to be #1 on any ladder because there isn't one. Its still the same reason why the dupers and botters do it, because it makes them real money, but your explanation of the people who buy/trade/receive doesn't work on D3 yet its still happening. I'd say that point is moot.

That being said, you have the power to do what you want already. All you have to do is stop being a lazy bum and get together with all of the like-minded "I love ladder" folks, make a simple social website where you can congregate and organize your "ladder" seasons. You could even have a list that keeps track of peoples levels and create your own barter system to facilitate trading between other ladder players. Then it's just a matter of following the rules of your ladder.

No one is stopping you except for you


I currently do NOT have the power to make all my peers the same level as myself. Not all people, especially myself, like 3rd party sites for our in game accomplishments. This is by far, well I dunno the duping/botting part was pretty out in left field too, something that went over your head. I, like many others, want these things to happen in game, officially, not made up on a spread sheet on another site (or 3rd party program).

At least you'r someone who doesn't want it I guess, albeit very bad examples of why not to have it.
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Ladder would have to be a separate mode from normal softcore and not offer any advantages.

To make ladder fair, each player is given a dedicated ladder slot (as players like myself have maxed 10/10 slots and I am sure not going to delete any characters). Each season resets this slot, deleting the character, all items and the progress the character made. Seasons last 6 months with a week or so rest. Hardcore also gets its own ladder slot. You can restart your ladder character during a season, retaining made progress and items.

Nothing is permanent in ladder, however there are rewards to playing. Gold you make is transferred to the appropriate non-ladder domain. Experience earned is also translated to gold (although with diminishing returns). Depending on performance, you get a multiplier. You can also get to keep 10 of the items you found during the ladder (you can choose which) that you are free to do whatever you like with.

Performance is measured...
Number of deaths (during the season, starting new characters keeps all their deaths in this count)
Elites Killed
Number of Inferno Game Clears (minimum number of times any Inferno story quest has been finished from start to end)
Average Inferno Monster Power
Average 1 to 60 Monster Power (heavy weight in hardcore)
Final Levels Earned (out of the 60 levels of your season end character, how many were gained with characters around your level range instead of being carried by a high level. Extra weight in Hardcore to stop carrying)
Final Level (paragon included)
Maximum Level (obtained by any character, this weighs more heavily in hardcore to provide a death safety net for unlucky players)
Experience earned (used to distinguish from multiple Paragon 100)
Gold Banked (amount of gold you finished season with, this is where GAH earnings are factored in)
Gold acquired (picked up and items sold to vendors, has a larger value than Gold Banked to discourage flipping)
Legendries found (encourages magic find)
Side quests done (promotes exploring)

These measures of performance were chosen as they encourage playing the game differently. Even in softcore dying is still bad as it decreases your season performance so you will see a lot more shields being used in softcore ladder than in softcore. Gold banked is there to reward people for selling items on the GAH while Gold acquired is there to reward players for finding their own gold allowing both flippers and farmers to play and still earn performance. Elite kills encourage players to farm optimized routes while game clears and side quests encourage players to play sequentially and explore areas usually overlooked. Average levelling monster power and levels earned reward players for levelling at MP10 (which is not too difficult) instead of being power levelled or running low MP. Average Inferno MP rewards players who play high monster powers slowly instead of lower monster powers quickly, allowing both to still compete with each other.

Do not think the earning is 1:1 with gold banked. If you end up with 0 gold banked you can still get many millions based on your experience earned, elites killed and games cleared. If you flipped items most of the ladder with a level 10 character and ended up with billions of gold, you may find yourself still getting many millions for your hard work, but nowhere near the billions you had banked because of very poor levelling performance.

The 6 month time period is long enough that almost everyone can find time for it while being short enough that you will not get hundreds of pages of paragon 100s.

Each season could also have a theme for more variety. These could be disclosed before each season to allow players to plan.

For example, Random Class would allocate every player a class randomly at the start of the season. They can only make characters of that class (so they get the same class again if they die in Hardcore ladder).
Class tour would change their class every month (retaining levels) forcing players to find new items. If you geared uber one month, you might be hampered the next.
Random monsters would replace the monster types of MP1+ inferno with a random monster type from any possible act. This would make Hardcore considerably harder as fallen maniacs might spawn anywhere.
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I don't want ladder just for the heck of having ladder.
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Ladder would have to be a separate mode from normal softcore and not offer any advantages.

To make ladder fair, each player is given a dedicated ladder slot (as players like myself have maxed 10/10 slots and I am sure not going to delete any characters). Each season resets this slot, deleting the character, all items and the progress the character made. Seasons last 6 months with a week or so rest. Hardcore also gets its own ladder slot. You can restart your ladder character during a season, retaining made progress and items.

Nothing is permanent in ladder, however there are rewards to playing. Gold you make is transferred to the appropriate non-ladder domain. Experience earned is also translated to gold (although with diminishing returns). Depending on performance, you get a multiplier. You can also get to keep 10 of the items you found during the ladder (you can choose which) that you are free to do whatever you like with.

Performance is measured...
Number of deaths (during the season, starting new characters keeps all their deaths in this count)
Elites Killed
Number of Inferno Game Clears (minimum number of times any Inferno story quest has been finished from start to end)
Average Inferno Monster Power
Average 1 to 60 Monster Power (heavy weight in hardcore)
Final Levels Earned (out of the 60 levels of your season end character, how many were gained with characters around your level range instead of being carried by a high level. Extra weight in Hardcore to stop carrying)
Final Level (paragon included)
Maximum Level (obtained by any character, this weighs more heavily in hardcore to provide a death safety net for unlucky players)
Experience earned (used to distinguish from multiple Paragon 100)
Gold Banked (amount of gold you finished season with, this is where GAH earnings are factored in)
Gold acquired (picked up and items sold to vendors, has a larger value than Gold Banked to discourage flipping)
Legendries found (encourages magic find)
Side quests done (promotes exploring)

These measures of performance were chosen as they encourage playing the game differently. Even in softcore dying is still bad as it decreases your season performance so you will see a lot more shields being used in softcore ladder than in softcore. Gold banked is there to reward people for selling items on the GAH while Gold acquired is there to reward players for finding their own gold allowing both flippers and farmers to play and still earn performance. Elite kills encourage players to farm optimized routes while game clears and side quests encourage players to play sequentially and explore areas usually overlooked. Average levelling monster power and levels earned reward players for levelling at MP10 (which is not too difficult) instead of being power levelled or running low MP. Average Inferno MP rewards players who play high monster powers slowly instead of lower monster powers quickly, allowing both to still compete with each other.

Do not think the earning is 1:1 with gold banked. If you end up with 0 gold banked you can still get many millions based on your experience earned, elites killed and games cleared. If you flipped items most of the ladder with a level 10 character and ended up with billions of gold, you may find yourself still getting many millions for your hard work, but nowhere near the billions you had banked because of very poor levelling performance.

The 6 month time period is long enough that almost everyone can find time for it while being short enough that you will not get hundreds of pages of paragon 100s.

Each season could also have a theme for more variety. These could be disclosed before each season to allow players to plan.

For example, Random Class would allocate every player a class randomly at the start of the season. They can only make characters of that class (so they get the same class again if they die in Hardcore ladder).
Class tour would change their class every month (retaining levels) forcing players to find new items. If you geared uber one month, you might be hampered the next.
Random monsters would replace the monster types of MP1+ inferno with a random monster type from any possible act. This would make Hardcore considerably harder as fallen maniacs might spawn anywhere.


While I agree with a few things on here this wouldn't work. The deleting of a character would negate the RMAH purchases, if any, and just wouldn't fly unless it wasn't there.

the performance based stuff looks ok but to only have one character slot dedicated to ladder wouldn't fly with me nor many others who like to have mulitple characters. New build ideas come out, new ways to play, being bored of the same class and so on.

They'd have to up the slot limit or just have to have people settle on making less NL type characters since multiple accounts cannot be created like in D2. Myabe make a separate type of thing where you have the 10/10 for NL and then 5 new slots specifically for ladder.

But my question is why does it need to be made with no advantages and made "fair"? It wasn't made that way in D2, what im basing it off of, and I didn't notice any complaints really.
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While I agree with a few things on here this wouldn't work. The deleting of a character would negate the RMAH purchases, if any, and just wouldn't fly unless it wasn't there.

That is why I did not suggest ladder have a RMAH, only a GAH. The RMAH would still remain for normal softcore where items can end up. You could play ladder, find an uber item, keep the item and even sell it on the RMAH after the season ends. Ladder is aimed at people who play more seriously (the people who generally frown on RMAH) rather than casual players (the sort most likely to use RMAH).

04/28/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Odinn
the performance based stuff looks ok but to only have one character slot dedicated to ladder wouldn't fly with me nor many others who like to have mulitple characters.

Ladder is so short that you will need to focus on a single character (I only played DH for a year outside of levelling my 10 characters). Every 6 months you make a new character which mostly should be different from the last. Ladders with forced character changes every month might also be for you. If not then maybe ladder is not your play style.

04/28/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Odinn
and then 5 new slots specifically for ladder.

If you want multiple characters then maybe ladder is not your style. In Diablo II Ladder was meant to be a race to maximum level and I feel incorporating elements of that would be a good idea.

The reason you made multiple characters for ladder in Diablo II was that many items were only able to be produced/acquired in ladder. Such rewards forced you to play when you might be happy off in a non-competitive situation.

It has positive sides as well. You might make a ladder team and tactically plan everyone's class and roles as that class to higher monster power farming. You might get backup teams in case people go offline so you can keep farming efficiently. The amount of planning for serious players as to what character to go would be a key part.

But my question is why does it need to be made with no advantages and made "fair"? It wasn't made that way in D2, what im basing it off of, and I didn't notice any complaints really.

Because it forces people to play who do not want the competitive nature of ladder. People who are serious about ladder play (look at all the D2 max level characters) cannot be given the support they want because of all the non-serious players.

I only played Ladder in Diablo II because I could get stuff I could not otherwise. As that stuff was rigged, it was pointless for me to play non-ladder. There was no reason to ever make a non-ladder character as there was no advantage to one.
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I guess we just have different views on what we liked about the ladder and what its purpose was. For me, I could careless in D2 what ranking I was on the ladder. I cared about finding items, making my character better, and trading. I liked that the economy was wiped of dupes, too many items, added value to otherwise worthless items again (at the start at least). I didn't duel at all, wasn't in a clan, didn't care about the ranking system but those that did made my item finds more valueable.

Now in d3 I may have actually tried to be on the ladder ranking but reguardless, everything in ladder (for me at least) was about items and their value/use.
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I don't think I can ever understand why nobody will agree to a ladder. Somehow to them, the game is completely ruined if they have their stuff switched over to a different server in which they can stay in if they feel like it. It's as if there are two rooms instead of one. I guess the choice is to hard for their little jargen brains to moppin handle.

(Censored courtesy to a lame excuse to not use the chat filter because we must be good boys and girls when it comes to blocking our cuss words away from their own built in chat filter. Use this as your signature if you think that using the filter will get you banned is bull woppers.)
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But again, what I don't get, is whats wrong with people playing NL as opposed to Ladder? You do not need to add in ladder only items, no big loss, but if you don't want to join it you wouldn't have to. If ladder was made with no ladder only items, same ranking system as d2, and with or without (thats a whole 'nother issue) RMAH/GAH I think it would work just fine. NL is not the red headed step child of the game, casual players couldn't compete for a ranking anyway and the non casuals have something to compete for.

Maybe we had different opinions, length of time and other things to where we liked D2 for different reasons.
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I'd still honestly like to see someone come up with good reasons NOT to have a ladder. I have yet to see any. RMAH is not a good reason either because it can still work. Playing on NL will mean nothing different in your game play that you are currently doing now.

Anyone?
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