[War3] 1.30 PTR Updated

General Discussion
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as long as you do not nerf druids of the talons I am not interesting in wc3 anymore. Elf vs Orc is just unfair and boring to watch as well. Also buff burrows... finally...
Well they did touch the gold cost of talons. Sadly nothing significant like a nerf to the actual problem that is Cyclone or something similar.
Boots being available from the very beginning could be very problematic to deal with. Especially for Human. Blademaster and Demonhunter with that item so eraly might turn out to be utterly oppressive.

And I agree with other people: the Ensnare change is probably more a buff than a nerf. The entire duration will only in the very fewest cases be required. Usually the targets dielong before the duration is over. But the reduced cooldown is a big buff. Especially against heroes. Where there is no downside with this patch.
@Pete Stilwell

Mouse lag video + specs from previous thread:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20765647087?page=4#post-61
Thank you for the continued changes. I know balancing a game as complex as WC3 is difficult. What would be helpful though is knowing the reason why some of the changes are being made beyond the simple numbers.

EG: Defend was not working as intended.
EG: Range units were being underutilized and exposed Orc/Human to Destroyers in that match up.
EG: Mountain Giants taunt ability was underutilized and its effect was to easily canceled.

Getting to "perfect" balance simply is not possible but knowing why you are adjusting certain things would help.
but the changes for balanced is bad only good things i saw was good
alch nerf
undead orb nerf eco buff
dh nerf i wood say but it still changes nothing
mg buff
am lv3 aura nerf
bm nerf changes all most nothing
tanks
: stuff i wanted to see is
Undead ghuols a bit more hp armor someting that they wont die from 3 hits same go for wagon
necropolis cost needs to be lower because its a building that you can only tp so it is use less and it takes to long to build and cost to much with gold mine
Orc nerf on wind walk, on raiders(Ensnare needs to last less on unit and heroes ) ,bats.buff on borrow hp or armor so they wont die super fast A BIG nerf on hex small nerf on wards maybe so that you can disspell it or hit it with magic dmg
Human mass tp cd longer mk bolt(stun) needs to last less priest heal buff orb of fire 10 + dmg and much bigger aoe dmg nerf staff a must
and more nerf to tanks and buff to giro dmg
elf nerf dh talon Cyclone (so that you cant spam it ) ferie fire on units on heroes how long it last aow creap nerf same hp dmg but it regens less hp then eats a tree and then he roots it takes more time to root bear heals and dmg dry slow make it a cheap spell effect or make slow fell less power full make Faerie Dragon have magic dmg so it wont me only AIR unit that has Spell Immunity and can be massed so that races that main dps is magic dmg (undead) and elf staff wood be on tr 3 or just remove staffs from the game because that is a bit broken or just make it that it can tp out only units not heroes
And blizzard wants to force chat meta that is bad because it makes like mass doc mg necro wagon and other but place fix the broken stuff first like that makes this meta raiders dmg to borrow because players all way pick it what is more broken hero works was good but agi heroes need a rework or just nerf what agi gives you the top broken heroes are dh and bm dh to tanky for glass cannon and bm can get away from danger with wind walk that is a free get away from jail card . the change needs to be natural not a forced. i now you want to see units that not get used a lot like necros or mg but first nerf the op stuff then you can see how meta will change . Blizzard if you want to make a big change do this make tavern heroes not instantaneous on tr2 or tr3 because that is a big power spike that can change game super fast and it wood change meta for sure if tavern heroes are not instantaneous on tr 2 or tr3. THIS IS ONLY WHAT I THINK THAT NEEDS A CHANGE
WHAT ABOUT DUAL ORANGE BIRD UPGRADE FOR BLOOD_LAW
Hey Pete, is bnet supposed to be down too? Cant connect to regular (non-PTR) bnet either.
The twisted meadows change is really sad to see. With big granite golem there instead of dragon, going into air superiority and playing islands expo game will be extremely difficult. I guess its "healthier" choice, but now cant make a bunch of air/anti air units fly in there and just creep it, and a normal force of 8 units in a zeppelin will really struggle to take Granite golem down ~~. I don't know who you think will be going to clear that camp. If you want it to be a land creep, maybe make it slightly easier to hill with 8 units? Even 2 rock golems would be better, but shrug. Perhaps with the new rifleman buffs it wont be as bad.

Overall some very nice human changes. Human will be strong with them. Though fireorb could get a change. I mean its absolutely terrible garbage item, theres never a reason or a point to EVER buying it, thats how bad it is. Might as well remove it and put healscrolls in human tier 3 shop or change it entirely to something like Frost orb which actually has utility like all the other orbs. Even if fire orb gets buffed and splashes more, its still useless garbage item! Splash effect, is just not a good effect, and damage stats dont really work well with human heroes at all, most of the time you are putting yourself in bad situation if you are standing there auto attacking too much. Frost orb just seems so much better and so much more suited to human needs and how they get kited late game.

Pitlord changes are insignificant. His kit is not good. Howl gets countered by most races by going into default standard armies ( howl is only good in team battles or FFA or so ), his Fire is as well very situational, but the problem is, even when you pick him into the perfect situation, he is not that amazing of a hero, and you are actually risking quite a lot by picking him.
For example :
If you pick him vs human expansion or human towers, the moment human defends your first pushes or harass attempts, you have a useless hero who is prone to dying fast

You could give pitlord starting health of 1000 and cleave increasing his damage by 20-40-60 (lol) + cleaving effect, and he would still be a dangerous and situational hero pick.

To be honest he would be a more interesting hero, if he had bigger stats and more meele damage. All of wc3 heroes rely on spells, having a hero who is simply strong and has some support spells would be a breath of fresh air.
RIP KODO DRAGON
Maybe overnerfed for MK. Both AM and MK got nerfed, which is just bad imo considering how they are the primary heroes for the human race.

Keep stormbolt damage 100/210/325, keep the clap nerf (which was a bit too strong vs orc).

Since both AM and MK got nerfed, maybe some bloodmage and paladin buff. IMO, make holylight affect living units at a reduced efficiency (70/140/210 damage to living units). Kind of suck how paladin is strictly a defensive hero with no offensive capabilities vs non undeads. Do the same for Deathkight so DK hero advantage actually means something.

Love the rifleman buff (they were arguably the worst unit in the human race). One thing though is they are really really clunky (almost dragoon level). Maybe reduced their collision size to same as footman so they can move in and out from a Human base wall in (footman, militias, spellbreakers, casters can do this).

Maybe knights can use a bit more buff as well since HU heroes are nerfed and the tank strategy is nerfed. How about 1000 hp (+15 hp), 12 armor (+1 armor), 1 more damage. Both aboms and taurens got massive buffs, so this is only fair.

Ensnare nerf is conservative for the most overpowered unit ability in the game, but in the right direction. Not sure if this is a bug or not, but please make it so invul pot removes ensnare. Currently it doesn't so a DH poping a 7 sec invul pot loses 2.5 sec being immobilized instead of attacking.

Orc Berserkers got some really massive buffs (hp increase, range increase, berserk take less damage, troll regen). Not sure about the 550 range, should be 500 at most. Berserkers have the best HP per food as well as higher dps per food than other ranged units already. Their one drawback was having lower range. While 450 was too low, 550 is hardly a drawback. 500 is a good middle ground.

Farseer could use more buffs. Far sight having no combat capabilities will always make it a bad spell. It should offers +3/6/9 int so FS has stronger right clicks and can cast 1 more chainlightning.

PotM needs more buffs. Attack speed increase is very welcomed for her (orb of venom > level 3 searing arrow due to her low attack speed). Would be nice if scout owls offered 3/6/9 agility, or did something other than scout (like provide a damage aura, or negative armor aura for enemy).

Tinker is still in the trashcan since the pocket factory nerf. Heavy armor is so bad! Ranged, seige, magic damage all got buffed vs pocket factory, it got some minor buffs vs normal damage, but the only normal unit in the orc's standard army is grunt, which orc didn't even build too many of since they die so fast to talons.

Pitlord buff was really conservative. If you want him to be a dps hero with cleave, maybe he should get +3 agility.
Is there any chance you could explain the thoughts behind some of those changes?

Buffing casters is understandable since they are barely used.

Nerfing MK clap is alright, the new one was way too strong (considering it doesn't have a damage cap like most AOEs).
But why did you decrease bolt damage again? The first nerf made sense, not one shotting acolytes anymore (which could have just been changed with 240 hp like peons).
Are there any other units that are not supposed to be one shotted? Probably can't even kill archers with lvl 3 bolt anymore. It is basically a holy light with some stun now that can't be used defensively.
Thank you!
buffing hunts even more? nice joke. so now not only in 2v2 but 1on1 everyone will robot them with even more benefits? : D so much for diversity buffs
Some nice changes but will we ever see a real blademaster nerd. His windwalk is way too OP, too much speed, too much damage on an already very strong hero.

Give him back his agility if needed but nerf the main OP factor, windwalk.

I dont see how MK required nerf before blademaster, noone ever said.. oh look, i lost because MK is too strong. But i know alot of ppl who hate their lives just because Blademaster WW exists.

He makes most int heroes very weak or unplayable because he wrecks them too easily..

Its just too good spell, pass through units, fastest movement speed in game, easy to kill all int heroes, easy to steal XP, easy to steal items...
07/31/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Leospeo
buffing hunts even more? nice joke. so now not only in 2v2 but 1on1 everyone will robot them with even more benefits? : D so much for diversity buffs


It's a nerf, their own scout only lasts 3 minutes and that's it.

That said, I really feel like hunts need something. They are too strong in teamgames, but at the same time their utility deprecates so fast the bigger fights get as they cant handle high unit concentrations well. They are never used in solo except maybe NE vs NE... Buffing or nerfing them would have a bad effect in the other gametype, so perhaps some small redesign would be nice?
Please nerf some item drops on Terranas Stand.

The middle creeps are way too easy for the blade master and he can get 2 level 2 permanent items easily. Please change it so it is only level 1 permanent item (or level 2 consumable).

The creep at the corners drop level 3 permanent items but is way too easy for a Blade or DH. Change to level 2 permanent.
good job
07/31/2018 06:52 PMPosted by Drayen
07/31/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Leospeo
buffing hunts even more? nice joke. so now not only in 2v2 but 1on1 everyone will robot them with even more benefits? : D so much for diversity buffs


It's a nerf, their own scout only lasts 3 minutes and that's it.

That said, I really feel like hunts need something. They are too strong in teamgames, but at the same time their utility deprecates so fast the bigger fights get as they cant handle high unit concentrations well. They are never used in solo except maybe NE vs NE... Buffing or nerfing them would have a bad effect in the other gametype, so perhaps some small redesign would be nice?


Hunts are not too weak vs HU. It is just bears/dryads was the stronger strategy.
Tier 1 hu basically can't use rifles since their range sucks. Hunts completely roll over footman so if HU scouts hunts, he basically needs a lumber mill and 1-2 gaurd towers or HU will get his base overrun. Also with the tier 2 upgrade, hunts "useful" period is extended a lot longer as they get roughly 16% dps increase. You just need to convert that early hunt investments into map advantage and you equalize easily even if HU gets rifle/casters to counter you.
07/31/2018 08:13 PMPosted by 마리오네트
Reinforced Defenses
Base Stats
◾Reduced from 200 to 175 lumber◾Increased gold cost from 50 to 75
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i think reinforced defense should roll back to 1.29 version. Lyn and Who said 2tier reinforced defense would be so overpowered especially in base trade situation.

Boots of Speed
◾Now have a stock of 2 at game start

Also this one doen't make sense either. from now on blademaster can buy speed boots in the early game and kill archmage more easily.


I think it is okay because boots of speed is rather expensive at 250 gold. Players don't even buy it for blade master anymore since it delays tech and level 2 windwalk gave max movespeed anyways. Maybe increase cost to 300 gold if that is an issue.

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