Paragon 2.0 question

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no, I don't like this
more free like
no, I don't like this
freedom is good.and only core stats are capless.
i need.
I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)



While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Thanks!


Ideally: You get 1 point in each category per level (how I originally thought it worked based on early screenshots), or at least > 1, mostly so it's actually worth grinding the things out, and that you don't end up with a lesser benefit now than you have within the current system.

Failing this, you get 1 point and can put it whereever you want, that way you can do things like:

Realize you're dying a lot, so you put a lot in defense.
Realize you have a weak item with pickup radius, so you go for a few pickup radius so you don't need it anymore.
Run for movement speed so you can ditch the Inna's or Lacuni's.
Etc.

It's not much choice but it's choice. Currently it might as well be a set progression.

"But everyone will go straight for trifecta stats!" If those are the defacto, 120% best option in all cases we can go ahead and dismiss this entire loot/paragon 2.0 and hell, the xpac as a whole as a colossal failure, because it's supposed to get away from trifecta spam as the One True Way.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


I dont understand why I cant put points into categories I want. For example I want super fast Wizard with 80% Movement Speed and Reduced Cooldowns (for Teleport) with SoJ and other items that allow me to kill elites fast or very tanky Witch Doctor with 15000 armor and elemental dmg to focus on killing tons of trash mobs. Why cant I put points into one category first and then some other, they are my points I earned them by killing mobs, I want to distribute them like I prefer, right!?

TL'DR: Please dont make it 1 category after another bound points and remove caps all together or at least make them big, like 100% MS or 1000 res, 20000 armor. It would still take tons of grinding to achieve so many points, but if stuff is capped for like 25% MS or 300% MF it would be pointless to grind cause ppl will quickly receive +stat points only...
easy before you buy the expac just get a paragon some insane levels first

and after searching around on the web paragon 2.0 isn't even going to be apart of the paid expac its gonna be a maint same with loot 2.0 and a few other features but as for act 5 and level cap and some other things like the new legendaries etc.... you will need the expac

honestly i think the expac should be free for everyone to apologize for all the screw ups but thats just my opinion

and btw blizz within 5 minutes of someone downloading the expac and logging in they could be 70 very easily even if the exp needed for its high if anyone wants to know how see me in game after the maint

so why not make the cap 99 ;o
I am noticing that there is a lot of stir with the concept of allotting points in a ladder type way (i.e. one type of point at one PL, another type of point at another PL, etc. until the cycle comes around again). Why couldn't there be the current system for the first several dozen Paragon Levels - say the first 50 levels (or even less if necessary) are the same stat allocation that currently exists then after that amount the player can then choose to allocate points. Was this type of system or allocation explored?
09/24/2013 05:57 AMPosted by Myrmidon
I am noticing that there is a lot of stir with the concept of allotting points in a ladder type way (i.e. one type of point at one PL, another type of point at another PL, etc. until the cycle comes around again). Why couldn't there be the current system for the first several dozen Paragon Levels - say the first 50 levels (or even less if necessary) are the same stat allocation that currently exists then after that amount the player can then choose to allocate points. Was this type of system or allocation explored?


or they could allow a completely free way to distribute paragon points instead of being retards

Examples of free allocation: Maplestorys stat system Flyff final fantasy games some of them do have stats or skill orb things with semi free allocation perfect world international fantasy online and loads of others you could sit there and list them for hours yet blizzard doesn't have any game with stat allocation from what i can remember anyways
i think your current Loot and Paragon 2.0 approaches are GREAT.

combine this with soulbound or account bound legendaries and we have quite a winner.

I know myself and all friends are returning with loot 2.0 and the expansion.

- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.

- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.


While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Thanks!


It's a good start but it needs some tweaking imo. My take on it is that there should be a hard cap for the total that can be invested in a category, but that should be smaller than the sum of the caps for each individual stat in the category. This way all maxxed characters are not alike.

For example, Core Stats allows a maximum of 200 points. There are 4 stats (dex, int, str and vit) and each one of those can have 100 points spent in it. If you spend 100 in one stat, you only have 100 to spread between the other 3.

Allow us to spend the points in whatever category we want when we get them, rather than dictating what category we spend points in according to a set pattern. If I get gear with awesome MF I might want to buff my core stats. If I change to survivability gear and have ok offense but no MF, I would want to dump everything in MF for a time until I make that up elsewhere.

Make an upper cap on total paragon points, but don't make it so high that it the average player would never make it. Make it attainable eventually. This gives us both a sense of progression and a sense of achievement.

Give us choice, but give us limits to the choice. Don't make it so that over time every character ends up exactly the same except for the gear they wear. Allowing us to make the choices we want, but encouraging a limit to the choice will keep players interest a lot longer.
Instead of a respec all type action, how about earning the option to reallocate 1 point for every 10 levels. This would help keep some incentive to make an extra character if you wanted one that was totally different but if you made a minor mistake in speccing previously it wouldn't force you to shut down the one character.

As said by many others, don't force us to pick which area we're putting the new stats.

I also don't like the idea of making the paragon system account wide the way it is. Rather, for every paragon level earned on one character give all other characters a 1% increase in xp earned. This would help in creating new characters faster without just making them a modified clone of every other character as soon as they hit max level. If you wanted to give your high paragon character a boost it would encourage you to play lower paragon level characters so that you can earn xp faster on your higher ones. This would help add to some much needed diversity in the game,
Having them be permanent is a terrible idea, it goes against everything Blizzard is trying to do with D3 and its ease to play.
Lylirra, to answer your inquiry I have outlined a solution here.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10070977090

This will allow for both meaningful stat choices without some being "No brainers" while at the same time allowing you to remove the restriction on the stat allocation. You can still cap the values, but you don't have to do it round robin style.

The only way you can solve this is with a diminishing return of one type or another.

Otherwise there's really no choice if you can just stack everything into CHC right off the bat. I understand the intention to make the system result in more meaningful choices, and this is how you can accomplish the same end goal without restrictions.
I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)



The problem of earning Paragon ONLY at max level in an uncapped system, makes you feel like you are wasting time to play at less than max level. Sort of like now, where Paragon is not shared, you say you feel like you should play your main else you are losing out to play a lesser Paragon level character.

Its the same thing with feeling like making a new character. Why do it? Just for fun when you could be earning Paragon on your max level character? If Paragon was capped, you could make up that time somewhere. But if its not capped, you can never make up time lost.

Its not that I'm against uncapped Paragon, its just that I'm against only earning it at max level. With so many end game things to do at max level, I feel like level 1 to 59/69 is being marginalized. And that's not very RPG like. Paragon should be a completely parallel leveling system to character levels from level 1. You won't earn Paragon nearly as fast as you would at max level, but it would be something so you didn't feel you were wasting your time if you chose not to play at max level.
good grief. i'm pretty sure gaining xp from 60-70 will be similar to paragon 1-10 (ie: going by today's speed. you'll be done in 2hrs OR LESS)

going from 1-60 already is a 3hr our less job with power leveling. of course, no ah = no cains fate .. so that's something to consider stocking up for.
1) CURRENT ROUND ROBIN SYSTEM vs UNCAPPED OPEN CHOICE w/DIMINISHING RETURNS - The round robin style system is intriguing so I won't -1 it until I test it out... but from RPG experience, I prefer to be able to choose the stat I want every level (especially since it starts taking very long just to get a single pLvl) instead of having to rotate between pre-chosen categories (so I have to lvl up 4 more times just to get another point in the stat I need). Another solution may be to give 1 pt in each category (core, off, def, adv) to allocate each pLvl... Either way, remove the caps and add diminishing returns (DR). Even though DR will eventually reach a soft cap that makes more points not as powerful as investing in another stat, you still have the OPTION to invest all of your points into a single or a few select stats.
  • For example, you could want a balanced hero that puts 50 in each category (like a lvl800 in current layout), but another character wants to be the fastest runner in all of D3 so he invests every single point into mvt speed, and even though with DR that would not be the most effective route, it still gives him the option to be Speedy Gonzalez.
  • This encourages build diversity, and with the infinite respeccing, allows you to adapt your pLvl points where you need or want them most based on your gear.
  • Since pLvling will take a long time, this allows you at much earlier levels (better for the majority of players) to match your stats to your build (glass cannon, tank, balance, fast explore etc.) -- with current layout it will take until plvl 800 to have your tank be fully tanky (while also forcing them to have invested a lot of pts which took a lot of time to earn into a lot of stats that they dont need or want to be a tank
  • This also doesn't force people to spend their last 200pLvls investing points in their least-favorite stats.
  • HOWEVER- my one argument against having diminishing returns in Paragon 2.0 is that once you start getting into those upper levels, it will take significantly longer to level up and then (because of DR) you will get a significantly lower-impact reward (as compared to the current system). Though, one simple way to counter this (if you were trying to remove caps and add DR) is to make the experience required to earn a pLvl static (so it takes approx 2 hrs of playing to earn 1 plvl, everytime).

    2) A lot of people are complaining in this thread that because of the caps, that at lvl 800 all heroes will be exactly the same. This is true except that what they aren't considering is how long it will take them before they reach 800 (if they EVER do). Let's just say prospectively if shared plvl 800 is roughly the same as having 10 lvl 100s in p1.0, then the large majority of players won't ever reach it and so therefore would have some "uniqueness" (if you can call it that) so their arguments about the problems associated with a far far away goal aren't necessarily the right thing to get all hung up about. I doubt even 10% of current players will ever reach plvl800. However, those numbers aren't really based on any real math because we dont know what the curve will be or how long it will take to lvl up in 2.0

    3) The whole system right now is kind of boring and doesn't feel rewarding or like there's any honest choice. It has a lot of limitations and it's like Blizzard is pretending to give us choice while really herding us into what eventually will come out as the same result for everyone at lvl 800 (even though that's a long road). But it won't feel like much of an impact between levels... it's a really slow progression... Maybe this is intentional, to really really really draw out the endgame but it still doesn't feel very rewarding. Also, once p2.0 hits, all the current stats awarded from plvl will be removed so it'll actually NERF current heroes that worked hard to earn those levels and make their heroes strong. One solution is to change the stats you currently choose from, into something that impacts you in a greater way or affects your skills. More on that below.

    * * * * MOST IMPORTANT SUGGESTION BELOW * * * *
    4) What I would seriously KILL for (no not seriously but close), that would make EVERYONE happy (probably not) is to have some sort of +skill points... In addition to getting the current round robin stat points,you also should get a +1 skill point every level (or xLvls) that you could use to increase the damage or reduce the cooldown or increase the proc coefficient or increase the Explosion Radius or increase the # of targets hit in a chain attack etc. of specific skills OR even an entire subsection (i.e. +1 affects every skill in your choice of Primary Attacks section, Secondary, Defensive, Voodoo etc)—capped of course for balance. This is what would make heroes feel unique and powerful. Then once you get to max lvl is where your hero really takes off. Before that point, you are just unlocking all the skills/runes but then all of a sudden you reach end-game and (through paragon levels) unlock your NEPHALEM POWER and you can start actually investing points in something that affects your skills in awesome and unique ways. This would be the kind of system that would actually reward players and make them feel like they're actually becoming SUPERHEROES CAPABLE OF KILLING DIABLO AND THE ANGEL OF DEATH! Right now I feel like they're still just like, heroes, but not such awesomely kickass heroes that they can rightfully stand ontop of angels and demons in power level.
    Make the Paragon Total rewards automatic and supplimentatal... Add soem freaking content to it somehow and get creative intead of recycling the game a thousand times over. Stuff like paragon 100 account total = 1-5 extra gold piles drop each time they would. Paragon 200 = +10 pickup radius on all characters. Paragon 300 = +10 max runspeed to all characters. Paragon 500 = chance for a champion pack respawn every time you kill one for double drop and exp. Chance to fight each pack twice increased by each player with paragon 500.

    Make each characters personal paragon HEAVY stat AND skill increasing. So stuff like 1 point = LOTS of dex + 5% damage with 2 hand bows. 1 point = lots of attack speed + 5% damage with 1 hand bows. 1 point = LOTS of vit + armor = to 5% of dex. 1 point to summon another pet for DH. 3 points to plant up to 3 more turrets. 1 point that gives +20% to crit, +200 to weapon damage but slows your attack speed by half. 1 point that adds thorns to a flat damage on hit for DH attacks that cant be modified or multiplied in any way if the DH is using a shield. 5 points that just gives +25 to all res each click cuz DH hate stacking all res. 5 points that just give + to weapon damage each click.
    09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
    So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


    I can't say I dislike the system but it seems boring to me because it is fairly passive. All the stats, for the most part, won't change how you play. What I would like to see is being able to put points into specific abilities/runes. Doing something like this correctly could make underused skills/runes much more compelling. It should be things more interesting than just flat damage or healing increases too. Some should have duration increases, resource cost changes, cooldown reductions.

    On top of that you could also put them into a sort of weapon proficiency. It could do things like increase the damage or attack speed of weapons. Maybe even invest some into the new elemental weapon damage effects.

    This would allow players to be able to find different synergies as they level their paragon.
    I can't say I dislike the system but it seems boring to me because it is fairly passive. All the stats, for the most part, won't change how you play. What I would like to see is being able to put points into specific abilities/runes. Doing something like this correctly could make underused skills/runes much more compelling. It should be things more interesting than just flat damage or healing increases too. Some should have duration increases, resource cost changes, cooldown reductions.

    On top of that you could also put them into a sort of weapon proficiency. It could do things like increase the damage or attack speed of weapons. Maybe even invest some into the new elemental weapon damage effects.

    This would allow players to be able to find different synergies as they level their paragon.


    +1

    This is what my main suggestion from my post is basically saying. This is a system that will actually develop your character. While having choice over stat allocation is a big step forward, the new mystic ability to reforge a stat already addresses that a little, which opens up Paragon 2.0 to focus on skills rather than statistics (or I'll gladly take a combination)—offering the greatest degree of build diversity, player satisfaction, and overall badassery.

    Players will actually feel rewarded and WANT to continue playing and leveling up because everytime they do they notice their active skills becoming that much stronger and more awesome. It's much deeper than just letting you pick a few stats that are the same ones you already find on items.

    As developers, this obviously would take a significant amount of planning, programming, testing and balancing, but it is the kind of level of customization that D3 needs.
    This means anyone that is below paragon 100 wont get crap for drops wtf Blizzard are you intentionally scaring the rest of us away?

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