The illusion of choice

General Discussion
Lets talk a little bit about Core stats in Paragon 2.0. Those would be Strength, Vitality, Intelligence and Dexterity. Imagine a barbarian/crusader. Here is the question you should be wandering : Why would I put points on anything but Strength and maybe Vitality for hardcore? Some of you will try to rationalize how you might want some resistances or a little bit of dodge so Intelligence and Dexterity are not worthless but we can predict even now what players will do. Simply click on anyone's profile and see what gems they have in sockets. Do you see anything but Primary attribute or Vitality (Hardcore)?

Yeah....

Do the developers have any plans to address how attributes work in the future? If not me might end up in a worse position than Diablo 2 when it comes to attributes.
No interest? Everyone thinks it will work just fine? Wasn't this the same reason attributes were removed in Diablo 3 in the first place?
I share your opinion on this. I even made a thread about the core attribute dependency and a way to fix it: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039253916
If you are at Paragon level 10.000 and spent all your points on Vit and want to increase your EHP furthemore it might be wise to spend some points in non-class primary attribute instead of Vit.

That's the only scenario I can imagine where you wouldn't spend your points on your primary attribute or vit.

But I don't have a problem with that. I can choose between offense and defense. I don't need other choices.
What was the problem in diablo2? You had your own choice to allocate the stat, the problem with todays generation of kids is there too stupid to do anything themselves and need there hands held the entire way through everything.

You mess up on your stats? Feel like you should've put more into str then vit? REROLL.

DIABLO had a certain style of gameplay, when you change the core gameplay style of ANY game that has a DECENT reputation/past your taking a gamble. Blizzard took a gamble by changing ALOT of the core aspects of diablo (identify/town portal, skill points, attribute points, auction house, LOOT TABLES (Dont turn away dev!) And they lost... alot............ALOT of players.
09/21/2013 03:12 PMPosted by SLAIN
What was the problem in diablo2? You had your own choice to allocate the stat, the problem with todays generation of kids is there too stupid to do anything themselves and need there hands held the entire way through everything.


The problem on D2 was that outside meeting minimal requirements for you gear Str was usless, Dex was the same you went for either minimal req or 75% block, Energy didn't offer anything besides a higher manapool so Vit was the most useful stat and what everyone stacked.

They kinda tried to fix this on D3 but it didn't turned out allright, str gives you armor but it's easier to stack extra armor from de +armor mod on gear, same goes for int and all res except that you require 10 int for 1 all res, dex is semi-good to a point but after the dimishing returns dex certanly goes downhill, the ideal choice would be a mix of vit/main stat since to my knowledge neither HP nor damage% suffer diminishing returns.
I absolutely agree with this thread. Unless they change what stats primary stat bonus gives, it will always be uneven. It explains why strength and intelligence will always be better than dexterity since they give armor and AR, both of which are innately better than dodge rate.

Why won't blizzard change the stat bonuses to even out the classes and make life easier for them like the good old mmorpg days. STR, INT, DEX will only increase DMG for your class. This will force everyone to spend points on say Armor, AR, Dodge, VIT to open up new builds like thorns or tanks.
If given the opportunity currently. I would put as much as I can into dex and str on my paragon points. I am content with my HP pool, damage and resistances. I would like to be able to take more of a beating and those stats would improve my chance to dodge molten bombs or outright take less damage from a hit. I would only start putting into main stat and vit if I felt I was killing too slowly or that I am tanky enough and just for shiggles need more hp.
all choice in games are an illusion. there will always be a best way to do things when it involves stuff like stats. at least with this system we can fill in stats we are missing or need by leveling up.
in d2 you could legit customize your char. in whatever way you wanted....well now you can reset your char, which I think is a terrible option. When I played I had a firewall sorc...it for nerfed to !@#$. I didn't whine and quit, I just tried to do the best I could with a %^-*ty skill i had and try to get different skills for her. I eventually made it to 99 with a halfway firewall halfway nova sorc.

The fact that you can just change skills on the fly and the fact that your level doesn't really affect how good you are at something, but your weapon does it silly. You can get 100 paragon levels or you can get a Skorn with 300 strength, same thing. Pretty silly really.
09/21/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Zamus
The problem on D2 was that outside meeting minimal requirements for you gear Str was usless, Dex was the same you went for either minimal req or 75% block, Energy didn't offer anything besides a higher manapool so Vit was the most useful stat and what everyone stacked.


Ahem. Damage!

Amazons got damage from dex. Top-tier zons put 100% of their stat into dex.

Assassins got it partially from str, partially from dex. (2/3rds of each I believe)

Barbarians got it from str.

Sorceresses didn't attack. I don't know if their attack did ever get a damage bonus, but their skills didn't. I should know though because I had a melee sorc at one point...
I share your opinion on this. I even made a thread about the core attribute dependency and a way to fix it: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039253916

I've taken a stab at this myself:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9882018529

I think that Jay Wilson meant well, but simply misunderstood something fundamental about games, and why people play them. Games in general, and RPGs in particular, are all about giving players a sense of agency, making them feel like they can make choices that have lasting effects in the game space. Jay's team derided choice as illusion, coined the "analysis paralysis" catch-phrase to justify it, and set about removing meaningful choice from this game wherever they found it.

That's why attributes are auto-assigned and largely meaningless: D3 would have worked just as well if they'd simply given every character per-level %damage, health, and resist buffs, and moved everything else to gear, which in effect is what they did anyway. It's why skills are arcade-style unlocks, and why point systems were anathema, even though other games eliminated trees, prerequisites, and baked-in synergies without removing their point systems. And it's why "veterans" of previous Diablo games keep talking about how shallow the D3 experience feels, by comparison.

I'm hoping that the 2.0 system changes will mitigate some of these effects, and what I've seen of Josh's vision to this point does look pretty cool, but I don't know that it will really fix any of these shortcomings. I hope it does, and I'll try it and see, but I'm not committing to buying RoS until I can assess the effect that the 2.0 changes have on the feel of the game.
There will always be the most optimal way to chose certain things. Just like certain builds are extremely better than others, while others are "only viable". It's called "min-maxing"..

But: That's why they don't "allow" us to customize our characters in that fashion like it was in D2 - because there is no customization tied with spending points on attributes, since you kinda messed up your character if you did 1 thing wrong with that..

Other than that, there will be other stats to give points to other than the 4 primary stats with Paragon 2.0. There'll be "Attack, Defensive, and Adventure" sectors that again have different stats, and I guess in the "Adventure", or "Utility" tab you'll have the most "freedom" in that regard.
The first 15-20% of dodge adds a lot more to your survival than a lot of people realize.
09/21/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Zamus
The problem on D2 was that outside meeting minimal requirements for you gear Str was usless, Dex was the same you went for either minimal req or 75% block, Energy didn't offer anything besides a higher manapool so Vit was the most useful stat and what everyone stacked.


You still had to factor in hit chance for dex. I saw some 400 pt str builds on barbs because it increased melee damage. There was some Energy Shield builds for sorc that put 95% of points into energy.

So even after the game was "figured out", it had a lot of variation.
Would like to see the primary attributes give some offensive benefits to every class:

Strength: faster hit recovery

Dexterity: increase chance to hit

Intelligence: increase resource regeneration / maximum resource

You would have to introduce hit recovery and chance to miss to the game. Also make it so that the classes will desire their primary attribute for those stats more than other classes - make Arcane Power and Mana more costly than ever, Barb gets hit a lot and will be "stunned" a lot, make high chance to miss for dual wielding and using bows/crossbows.
I share your opinion on this. I even made a thread about the core attribute dependency and a way to fix it: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039253916

I've taken a stab at this myself:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9882018529

I think that Jay Wilson meant well, but simply misunderstood something fundamental about games, and why people play them. Games in general, and RPGs in particular, are all about giving players a sense of agency, making them feel like they can make choices that have lasting effects in the game space. Jay's team derided choice as illusion, coined the "analysis paralysis" catch-phrase to justify it, and set about removing meaningful choice from this game wherever they found it.

That's why attributes are auto-assigned and largely meaningless: D3 would have worked just as well if they'd simply given every character per-level %damage, health, and resist buffs, and moved everything else to gear, which in effect is what they did anyway. It's why skills are arcade-style unlocks, and why point systems were anathema, even though other games eliminated trees, prerequisites, and baked-in synergies without removing their point systems. And it's why "veterans" of previous Diablo games keep talking about how shallow the D3 experience feels, by comparison.

I'm hoping that the 2.0 system changes will mitigate some of these effects, and what I've seen of Josh's vision to this point does look pretty cool, but I don't know that it will really fix any of these shortcomings. I hope it does, and I'll try it and see, but I'm not committing to buying RoS until I can assess the effect that the 2.0 changes have on the feel of the game.


This line of thinking from Jay discounts important realities.

- Not everyone wants to play with optimal builds.

- It assumes developers know all optimal builds and players can never discover a new form of optimal with an untested or lightly tested permutation of stats and gear.

The problem with those assumptions are that they throw away a lot of what true RPG play is about: the game of Player vs. Developer to find the loopholes in the battle formulas. Additionally because developers are not perfect, I would say a lot of times there IS choice. A choice between what is presented to you as optimal, and what is truly optimal. Or just what you have fun with or is more comfortable to you or even looks cool. Customization in the hands of the player is always superior to no customization.

2.0 seems to have choices between things even harder to quantify like main stat and movement speed as well from what I understand so I am tentatively hopeful of better things to come.

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