*5* Things The Anti BOA Crowd Don't Seem To Realize:

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Firstly, a disclaimer. I am pro-BoA, but not 100%. I wouldn't mind seeing BoE or BoT or some other sort of hybrid approach introduced.

That said, there are 5 common misconceptions and oversights I see from the people protesting about it on the forums making.

I'm going to leave discussions over how BoA will kill Blackmarket sites alone for now, since this has been covered ad-nauseum before.

So...

1) Not everything will be BoA.

Unmodified rares and the like will still be freely trade-able from what we know.

2) Rares will still be good.

While legendaries and sets will generally be better, from what we've seen from datamining there will likely be some awesome rares too, and more than likely a near perfect rare could end up being near BiS. Again, we know nothing for sure yet, but this seems to be a reasonable assumption at this point.

3) You can still trade with your friends in the same game.

If an item drops in a game with a friend, you can trade it and help them out if they need it.

4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

At least nowhere near the extent that item selling is now. Sure, you will always have an extreme minority who will spend ages bypassing the system to do this, but there are a *lot* of safeguards to prevent account trading, and doing it runs a massive risk of getting ripped off.

Botting is another issue entirely. But one of the major reasons that botters are so common is due to how easy it is to sell gold and gear. If that stuff was all BoA, not only would there be less incentive to do it, there would also be a *lot* more risk.

5) Trading does affect others.

Far too many people seem to think that if unrestricted trading is allowed with loot drops balanced around self found, that people can just choose to opt out of it.

Thing is, as I've said in another thread...probably the most common 'goal' in D3 is to have a Powerful Character. And in games like this, power is relative. Trading will give a massive advantage, and thus for anyone wanting to play the game 'right'...there would be a serious incentive to trade.

And that's without PvP. Once PvP enters the arena (hah) then an entirely new can of worms is opened.

So yeah...I'm fine with BoA. I'm also fine with BoE or BoT. But overall I do feel that the quasi-BoA we seem to be getting now is going to be best for the game.


These are not terrible points. It doesn't change the fact that for many people who play this game, a lot of fun is had by giving items to friends. It cool when your buddy logs in and you can go "man i found something awesome for you". If I can't do that I need a good reason.

So whats the reason?
How does BOA make D3 a better game?

Answer those questions making the assumption that Loot 2.0 Fixes itemization, because if it does then you don't need BOA. If the argument here is that BOA is part of Loot 2.0, then I would say loot 2.0 must not fix itemization. I've played other action rpgs that have good itemization, and no BOA they work fine. The only reason you would need BOA is if Itemization still sucks.

That said I could live with BOT, I still think it sucks but its livable.
11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
1) Not everything will be BoA.

So it is like strapping a ball and chain only to one leg? Also see #2

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
2) Rares will still be good.

We do not know anything. Possible scenarios
Rares are very bad compared to legends
Then in most cases trading rares is useless, because in the same time I have better chance to find upgrade
Rares with very good rolls may be better than legends (like in D2)
Then nothing changes. Buying rares still will be P2W, and botting rares will be profitable.
There will be fewer items but higher prices Less is more, indeed.

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
3) You can still trade with your friends in the same game.

Terrific. So why impact on a game when I play with friend on the same time, or when he logs 2h when I am offline (letss assume we both play the same time aqt tgiven day) is different?

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

Botting will be still very rampart It may be changed but not diminished

* Exp botting
* Gold botting
* Materials botting
* "Bot raids" Pay $->enter game with 3 bots->minimize a game and wait 1h-> check botted loot->pay botter for items you want

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

It may be true. OTOH account selling is common in WoW

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
5) Trading does affect others.

How's that? If the drops is good enough in most cases you do not trade. But in some cases you may need. And if somebody buys all stuff what this has with you?
Also:
11/16/2013 09:00 AMPosted by SirRight
If a person is playing to have fun and can invest the time and have the willpower to be patient, he could easily play the low level MPs without buying or trading a single item.

So why limit it when somebody wants to trade?
So trade affects other or not? Make your mind people...

Reliable option for not trading?
Something we call self control! People just really need to learn about it. Pride in knowing you played how you wanted to play and achieving your goal is all that matters. People need to learn self respect and stop bowing to peer pressure.

Good one

I just had a friend buy the game recently. He bought TONS of gold on the RMAH and in two days had a character stronger than anything I have on my two accounts after over a year of playing. He quit a day later. "Game is boring." Seriously? [...]


I wish there were more people on this forum that were enlightened like this. Heck, I wish there were more people in the world that had a glimmer of enlightenment. Okay, I'll even settle for a handful of people in my small town that just have an open mind to new ideas!

Yeah because everybody was shoving the idea of buying gear to the guy's throat...
Diablo is labeled Mature so people should be able to think about consequences of their actions
I just had a friend buy the game recently. He bought TONS of gold on the RMAH and in two days had a character stronger than anything I have on my two accounts after over a year of playing. He quit a day later. "Game is boring." Seriously?

Then, when he was quitting he tried to give me all of his gold and gear... I declined. I knew that if I took it the game would essentially be ruined for me. I'd just hit the same wall he did. He thought he was being a good friend, but in reality it was like a harm dressed up in kindness. Good intentions leading to hell if you will.


I wish there were more people on this forum that were enlightened like this. Heck, I wish there were more people in the world that had a glimmer of enlightenment. Okay, I'll even settle for a handful of people in my small town that just have an open mind to new ideas!


Would this be a reason against BOA you cite your friend who bought everything then quit. This is a net zero. Ultimately him buying everything had no effect. You choose not to accept the gild or items just like you can currently not do AH or trade. So you still are playing the way you want. I like trade so why should I have to play your way instead of allowing everyone to choose how they play?
11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
Unmodified rares and the like will still be freely trade-able from what we know.


But legendaries should be head and shoulders BiS over rares (rarity = power) so they have a concern here.

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
If an item drops in a game with a friend, you can trade it and help them out if they need it.


They're worried about that time where a legendary drops the one day their friend happens to be offline for whatever reason. I see their point on this one too, you shouldn't have to set some kind of a rigid schedule to play with your friends to get the best chance at drops for one another. That crap belongs in MMOs with raiding.

11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.


This. Their cries of "account botters!" are laughable,

Thing is, as I've said in another thread...probably the most common 'goal' in D3 is to have a Powerful Character. And in games like this, power is relative. Trading will give a massive advantage, and thus for anyone wanting to play the game 'right'...there would be a serious incentive to trade.

And that's without PvP. Once PvP enters the arena (hah) then an entirely new can of worms is opened.


Not quite the argument I would use here Starbird. A "level" playing field isn't really the point. The point is the cold hard fact that Blizzard wants people to gear up at a "Goldilocks" rate of "just fast enough they keep interest, just slow enough they get done close to next expansion so they game still relevant to them". As such Blizzard will not - apriori - will not have both in the game because then people would fly through the gearing process and whine for nothing to do within a year before the next expansion is released.

Given the dichotomy foisted on us, you have restricted trade and greater control over the items you find, or unrestricted trade with low drop rates. Blizzard has decided the latter made too many people too unhappy, so they're trying the former. Working with this model, let's discuss things to suggest to the devs as compromises.

4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

At least nowhere near the extent that item selling is now. Sure, you will always have an extreme minority who will spend ages bypassing the system to do this, but there are a *lot* of safeguards to prevent account trading, and doing it runs a massive risk of getting ripped off.

Botting is another issue entirely. But one of the major reasons that botters are so common is due to how easy it is to sell gold and gear. If that stuff was all BoA, not only would there be less incentive to do it, there would also be a *lot* more risk.


Good luck to them with all their safeguards etc. once it becomes illegal in EU to disallow reselling game accounts you've paid for.

Yes, they will be forced to even make all new safeguards to assure save transfer of account ownership!

If that happens you do know the result would end up being either a full wipe on transfer or exclusion of business with the UK.

More than likely an account wipe.

Game licenses are one thing, your progress is another.
Getting through to the blockheads is futile at best.

This concisely presented 5 point breakdown will hopefully help somewhat.

Nice one, Starbird!
I just had a friend buy the game recently. He bought TONS of gold on the RMAH and in two days had a character stronger than anything I have on my two accounts after over a year of playing. He quit a day later. "Game is boring." Seriously?

Then, when he was quitting he tried to give me all of his gold and gear... I declined. I knew that if I took it the game would essentially be ruined for me. I'd just hit the same wall he did. He thought he was being a good friend, but in reality it was like a harm dressed up in kindness. Good intentions leading to hell if you will.


Well, that only goes to show, that the only thing D3 currently can offer the players are the loot hunt.

In D2 (Yes, I know, this isn't D2, but it is a Diablo game, or rather was supposed to be) you would use all kinds of items for a lot of different builds, situations and so forth. In D2, giving away a good unique, didn't mean that the game became boring, because the power was in skills and not items. So it didn't matter if you had trillions of godly uniques, as long as you had fun using them!

Heck, I had a Bowazon with a full inventory of 290's poison charms...why? Because it was fun trying it out!
1) Not everything will be BoA.

Unmodified rares and the like will still be freely trade-able from what we know.

We're already well aware of this but given the costs associated with Enchanting and the ability to make every rare but the best rare in the game better, the value of the rare will come from the Mystic roll, rather than the drop, thus rendering 90% of all rares virtually worthless in trade. Furthermore, it's possible that gold will retain its value as a currency used to buy legendary item drops in groups and gold is just as prone to being abused through the black market, thus rendering BoA utterly pointless.
2) Rares will still be good.

While legendaries and sets will generally be better, from what we've seen from datamining there will likely be some awesome rares too, and more than likely a near perfect rare could end up being near BiS. Again, we know nothing for sure yet, but this seems to be a reasonable assumption at this point.

The key difference being, of course, that the legendary item will be obtainable, whereas virtually nobody would have such a rare, thus making it pointless to discuss for the majority of us.

If an item drops in a game with a friend, you can trade it and help them out if they need it.

Many of us don't play with our friends or solo. That's cutting out a gigantic portion of the player base.

4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

yes, they will. if they don't, that's going to be a direct reflection of the game's popularity, it won't be.

5) Trading does affect others.

it's supposed to. it's Diablo.

you really haven't said anything we don't already know.
I like trade so why should I have to play your way instead of allowing everyone to choose how they play?

Because without the 'safe and secure" (Blizzards' words) feature of the AH, trading top end items needs to die a BOA death quickly. Trading is a scourge with any limits. Spam/hacks/scams will soon be the normal, most propelled by bots/3rd party sites. Everyone would have suffered from that.

It would have been easier to fix the GaH, than to implement the hundreds of needed features for free-for-all trading. Blizzard went the cheap way and went BOA useful items, let all others(rares) shortly become useless/unwanted compared to BIS legs...


This does not answer my question. Its just more BOA rhetoric and talking points. All you said was I like BOA and in order to make everyone play the game the way I play this has to happen. I don't play your way, and don't want to. I don't want you to trade if you don't want to. But if BOA is implemented then its just the way you play. That's why its bad for me. I want the freedom to choose the way I play. This is what it boils down to.

And saying everyone will suffer is conjecture you don't speak for everyone.
Nothing good will come out of ''BOA''

The only argument people have when they say ''BOA'' is a good thing is that player will only use the gear that they find and wont be buying gear with IRL money.

Dont know about you but i realy dont give a damn if people buy gear with money , it will not make my day better if they self found the gear they use.

''BOA'' only limit the number of options players have and also take some of the fun of trading with other player.
All of those pro-boa reasons are not worthy enough to damage the gaming experience of all legit players
11/16/2013 01:24 PMPosted by DoNTDiEx
All of those pro-boa reasons are not worthy enough to damage the gaming experience of all legit players


Not worthy enough? All we want is a game where actually playing the game yields the best results. If that argument is not worthy enough, then no argument is. Even without the ah, sites will become the new trading tool. It may be very well possible for someone to develop a system very close to the potency of the ah and all of a sudden we'd be back to having trading as the best possible means of finding good items.
11/16/2013 01:36 PMPosted by Vlad
It may be very well possible for someone to develop a system very close to the potency of the ah

Nope. And here's why. Nobody can develop a system which automates the exchange process. The AH was required for this. The best they can do is player to player exchange which cuts the efficiency exponentially.
11/16/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Providence
I really hate arguing with you Starbird cause you're honestly one of my favorite posters in this forum :|


No worries. I've never asked people to think the same way as me...only to think :)

Some of my favourite posters I don't agree with 100% of the time. If I did it would be really, really boring.

11/16/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Providence
I'm happy with this, BUT I would go a step further and at least say that you can trade with your friends regardless of in game or not.


But then you may as well make everything free trade since you can just add someone to your friends and remove them after.

Rares are far more random than the legendaries. Legendaries are also expected to be game changers, and concurrently legendaries and sets vastly fill most peoples gear slots.

Rares off the bat have a hard time of being good. People were likely to wear them though because they were tradeable en bulk. Very few people habitually find rares that are actually good for others, much less for themselves.

I don't know how this new system is going to work in comparison to legendaries. But if it more or less stays the same, we shouldn't expect rares to realistically be super good


Well, until we know more about the loot system this one is going to be a matter of opinion.

Trading will always affect others. This is true. This is why you want to give people RELIABLE options to not trading. Just like you want to give people RELIABLE options to playing self found.

In a good system, both avenues should work. People should be able to play self found without feeling stupid for doing so with the possibility of trading, and people should be able to trade without feeling like it's the ONLY way to get anywhere.

There needs to be a balance.


Which is as I've said before a perfect chance for them to give us Ladder. Make Ladder BoA and Open either BoE or free trade.

Everyone is happy.

4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

At least nowhere near the extent that item selling is now. Sure, you will always have an extreme minority who will spend ages bypassing the system to do this, but there are a *lot* of safeguards to prevent account trading, and doing it runs a massive risk of getting ripped off.

Botting is another issue entirely. But one of the major reasons that botters are so common is due to how easy it is to sell gold and gear. If that stuff was all BoA, not only would there be less incentive to do it, there would also be a *lot* more risk.


Good luck to them with all their safeguards etc. once it becomes illegal in EU to disallow reselling game accounts you've paid for.

Yes, they will be forced to even make all new safeguards to assure save transfer of account ownership!


It's already tricky.

I mean I used to get a friend of mine who has a credit card (credit cards are not usually issued to foreigners in my country) to buy stuff on Bnet for me. It used to be simple. Now just to give her access to my account means a massive hokey pokey of password changes and emails that make it really tricky.
Nothing good will come out of ''BOA''

The only argument people have when they say ''BOA'' is a good thing is that player will only use the gear that they find and wont be buying gear with IRL money.

Dont know about you but i realy dont give a damn if people buy gear with money , it will not make my day better if they self found the gear they use.

''BOA'' only limit the number of options players have and also take some of the fun of trading with other player.


Replace 'buying gear with IRL money' with 'botting' or 'hacking' and you will see why your argument doesn't work.

11/16/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Baconan
We're already well aware of this but given the costs associated with Enchanting and the ability to make every rare but the best rare in the game better, the value of the rare will come from the Mystic roll, rather than the drop, thus rendering 90% of all rares virtually worthless in trade. Furthermore, it's possible that gold will retain its value as a currency used to buy legendary item drops in groups and gold is just as prone to being abused through the black market, thus rendering BoA utterly pointless.


95% of rares are useless now. 90% would actually be an upgrade.

11/16/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Baconan
The key difference being, of course, that the legendary item will be obtainable, whereas virtually nobody would have such a rare, thus making it pointless to discuss for the majority of us.


Well...that's kind of the case now, isn't it? Top tier items are always going to be ultra rare.

4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

yes, they will. if they don't, that's going to be a direct reflection of the game's popularity, it won't be.


Botting will be still very rampart It may be changed but not diminished

* Exp botting
* Gold botting
* Materials botting
* "Bot raids" Pay $->enter game with 3 bots->minimize a game and wait 1h-> check botted loot->pay botter for items you want


I'd still like anyone to provide any proof that botting or account selling will be rampant. It's an isolated thing in WoW and without financial incentive and with the risk of losing everything on that account botting will likely be diminished too.

11/16/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Logos
But legendaries should be head and shoulders BiS over rares (rarity = power) so they have a concern here.


True. It's one thing that's going to need to be fleshed out between now and release. I would like to see an absolutely perfect rare be slightly better than anything but a absolutely perfect legendary.

11/16/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Logos
They're worried about that time where a legendary drops the one day their friend happens to be offline for whatever reason. I see their point on this one too, you shouldn't have to set some kind of a rigid schedule to play with your friends to get the best chance at drops for one another. That crap belongs in MMOs with raiding.


Yeah, and this is a fair point. But that is one of the sacrifices we make with BoA...since it's easy to just friend people and trade otherwise.

Maybe there is a system to get around this. Perhaps have a 'BFF' status when you've killed 1000 elites together or something :)


Good luck to them with all their safeguards etc. once it becomes illegal in EU to disallow reselling game accounts you've paid for.

Yes, they will be forced to even make all new safeguards to assure save transfer of account ownership!

If that happens you do know the result would end up being either a full wipe on transfer or exclusion of business with the UK.

More than likely an account wipe.

Game licenses are one thing, your progress is another.

Smart.
Why didn't I think of that :-)
That's probably what they'll do if they are forced to allow sales.

If that happens you do know the result would end up being either a full wipe on transfer or exclusion of business with the UK.

More than likely an account wipe.

Game licenses are one thing, your progress is another.

Smart.
Why didn't I think of that :-)
That's probably what they'll do if they are forced to allow sales.


Of course it is. It is only the license which can be sold. Would be insane, if any player content moved along on such a purchase.

Anyways, the ruling in the EU Supreme Court is already a fact. Oracle lost their case, and that sets a precedense over any further cases. And rightfully so.

I think you're missing out on the fact that while some legendaries might be amazing, I doubt for certain specs you're going to want to be using 100% legendaries. You're probably going to be using the "game changers" that work for your spec and then fill in the gear as you see fit now.

Take a look at COB WDs for example (I know it's not a perfect example). They have to have some kind of mana regen or bat reduction to get the spec to work. Ideally this comes from 4pc zuni or maybe even visage of guiya and an SOJ. Once you have those pieces you just start acquiring whatever else is BIS for each armor slot.

For belt that's WH
For pants it's rares with 150int/200v/65ar/2OS/armor or radius For most COB depth diggers, BT jousting mail and innas pants aren't as good as rares.
Shoulders can be viles or crafted rares
Gloves are rares/crafted rares
Bracers are crafted rares or maybe lacuni
One of the rings can be rare

What I'm saying is that while legendaries will be powerful, I don't think they're always going to be BIS in every situation. Look at every top dps character for each class and look at the fact that theyre all wearing rare rings, probably rare amulets and a couple other rare items. Did you see that rare STR ammy that sold for like 60b? No current legendary neck could touch that thing.

Rares will still be good. They might not be BIS for every slot, but I think you'll still see a healthy mix and match of them across all characters.


I just wanted to repost this for conversations sake since it seemed to totally get passed over.

I don't think game changing legendaries will be the only thing people are wearing in the expac.

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