[2.1 Mechanics] Spirit Generators: Quick Ref.

Monk
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Here is the biannual FoF-is-still-#1? check. (For 2.2) With the Raiment changes coming a few months from now, generators will be back in the spotlight and I guess it is time to make sure all the mechanics we love will be the same once 2.2 goes Live. ^_^

All tests were performed on PTR 2.2 with Hellfire Staff with +Min Hellfire Ring to produce constant damage numbers.

Screenshot of Testing = http://i.imgur.com/OpajnsB.jpg

Control Test #s
1--2--3
4--5--6

Control Test#1 = Basic Attack
Damage = 1140 = 100% wd

Control Test#2 = FoF Strike #1
Damage = 2167 = 190%wd
1140 x 1.9 = 2166
Conclusion = FoF Strike 1 does correct damage

Control Test#3 = FoF Strike #2
Damage = 310 = 190%wd/7 = 27.14% wd
310*7 = ~2170
Conclusion = FoF Strike 2 does correct damage

Control Test#4 = FoF Strike 1 vs 2 DoTs
Strike 1 DoT Tick = 182
Strike 2 DoT Tick = 1277
182*7 = 1274
Conclusion = FoF Strike 2 has DoTs x7

Control Test#5 = Thorns damage from basic attack (100% Hack)
Hack Proc Damage = 21,874 @ 1.0 proc coefficent

Control Test#6 = Thorns damage from FoF Strike 1 (100% Hack)
Hack Proc Damage = 16,406x2
16,406/21,874 = 0.75 proc coefficient
Conclusion = FoF DoT application still has proc scalar per DoT.

2nd Strike DoTx7 Verify³
First Punch Dot Tick = 182³
Second Strike DoT Tick = 1277³
Conclusion = 1277/7 = 182 = 2nd Strike still DoTx7

Verify3 = http://i.imgur.com/2Arde6K.jpg

Conclusion
Fists of Fury is still the #1 Damage & Proc vehicle Monks have available, and should be the default recommended Raiment Generator element ^_^
03/09/2015 07:40 AMPosted by Davlok
2nd Strike DoTx7 Verify³
First Punch Dot Tick = 182³
Second Strike DoT Tick = 1277³
Conclusion = 1277/7 = 182 = 2nd Strike still DoTx7

Oh boy...

Awesome Davlok, you da real MVP! :D
Fists of Thunder: Thunderclap rune damage mechanics 2.2 checkup. In vanilla D3 TC was one of the best, if not best generators. It had sole rights to the teleport, the fastest innate speed, and procced lots of cyclones. Unfortunately at the start of RoS and all the changes that occurred, it was pretty clear FoT was a terrible choice for multi-target damage with the 3rd hit being 400% weapon damage DIVIDED by the number of targets hit. Combine that with being the only monk generator that only hits one target, and you have a pretty useless generator after the innate attack speeds and proc coefficents were lowered in the name of balance. (until getting mostly restored in 2.1)

Fists of Thunder: Thunderclap - Single Target Damage

Monster #1
Strike 1 = 200% weapon damage
Strike 2 = 200% weapon damage
Strike 3 = 400% weapon damage + 120% shockwave

Fists of Thunder: Thunderclap - Damage vs - 4 - targets.

Monster #1
Strike 1 = 200% weapon damage
Strike 2 = 200% weapon damage
Strike 3 = 100% weapon damage + 120% shockwave damage

Monster #2, 3, 4
Strike 1 = 120% shockwave damage
Strike 2 = 120% shockwave damage
Strike 3 = 100% weapon damage + 120% shockwave damage

Formula for total damage to X targets
FoT-Thunderclap
1st Strike = (200%) + (120%)(X-1)
2nd Strike = (200%) + (120%)(X-1)
3rd Strike = (400%)/X + (120%)(X)

Examples:
X = 1, total damage per combo = 920% weapon damage
X = 4 total damage per combo = 2000% weapon damage

Compare to WotHF: Hands of Lightning where the equation is much simpler (FoT is slightly faster than WotHF tho!)

WotHF-HoL
1st Strike = (190%)X
2nd Strike = (423%)X
3rd Strike = (190%)X

Examples:
X = 1, total damage per combo = 803% weapon damage
X = 4 total damage per combo = 3212% weapon damage

So Thunderclap's shockwave does NOT hit the primary target for the first two strikes, but DOES for the 3rd strike. I think my damage ranking on the first page forgot to add the 120% hitting the 3rd stike in single target for TC, hence why FoT-All Runes is #3 for single target, then drops off a cliff as targets increase.

Overall, still can't recommend using Thunderclap with the new 2.2 generator Raiment builds over HoL or FoF especially since the main bonus of using Thunderclap in the old days was the teleport which was given to all FoT runes and then surpassed by Epiphany for today's monks.
I really wish they would give the little teleport to all generators, that should be seen as a QoL change.
Just a heads up that if you're looking to abuse Fists of Fury with Broken Promises, it doesn't work. AFAICT, the seven hit second attack only counts as one hit for the proc. And even worse, I think if any of those hits crit you lose your chain, so it makes things worse. The DoT doesn't trigger it either (though interestingly enough, sweeping wind does).

However, BP doesn't seem to care about proc coefficients, so something like FoT/Quickening is ideal for triggering it.
Edit: updated tests for 2.2 live in link below. 0.25 ICD exists :(

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16527322731?page=3#55

03/22/2015 05:27 AMPosted by Hunter
Just a heads up that if you're looking to abuse Fists of Fury with Broken Promises, it doesn't work.


Yea, Broken Promises was nerfed into the ground the last PTR iteration. The text of the affix reads: "After five consecutive non-critical hits, your chance to critically hit is increased by 100% for 3 seconds". What it should actually read is: "After five consecutive non-critical ATTACKS"

So when using AoE attacks like Explosive Light or Crippling Wave, each attack hits multiple enemies, and they ALL have to NOT be crits to just increase the Broken Promises counter by +1. So if you're hitting 10 enemies with Explosive Light, you'd have to get 50 non-criticals in total to just get the ring to proc. Bad. Salvage bad.

But I went ahead and tested a few more Monk skills against single target to see what the game considered an "attack", and found some surprising results. Maybe someday it will be useful if they buff Broken Promises back to a useful mechanic.

PTR-3-22-2015 Testing:
Single Target
5 non-critical "attacks" are required for Broken Promises to proc.
Test = how many "attacks" each "cast" of a Monk skill counts towards the BP's 5 consecutive.
All enemies hit will have to be non-crits, and still only count as listed below.


For Each CAST of a skill, BP counts...
TR = each tick counts
WoL: Pillar of the Ancients: 7 attacks total
Seven Sided Strike = 4 attacks
WoL: Shattering Light = 3-4 attacks
WoL: WoL/EW = 3 attacks
Unwelcome Disturbance = 3 attacks over time
All WotHF 2nd Strikes incl. HoL = 2 attacks
EP application = 1 attack
All other generators, attacks, etc = 1 attacks
FoF/VCK DoT application & Submission = 0 attacks.

Hope that made sense ^_^; Hexwuko is probably going to be the only monk build that may consider Broken Promises, and Pillar seems like a great way to proc... if you're only hit 1 enemy at a time. >_<
Hi, I was looking for some info on what's the best way to generate spirit, and came across this wonderful thread, except it's very unclear to me (after reading a few pages of posts) which (if any) of the data is still valid (for 2.2). Is there an up-to-date generator ranking?
Thanks
05/24/2015 08:04 PMPosted by tempicek
which (if any) of the data is still valid (for 2.2). Is there an up-to-date generator ranking?

The spirit generation rankings should all be still valid for 2.2, nothing changed as far as spirit generation rankings since 2.1. Everything from the damage rankings to innate attack speeds should still hold true. Did a quick sanity check on live servers last night and saw nothing out of order. Check out post #221 & #223 (on this page) for FoF and TC testing if you're curious.

02/26/2014 08:15 AMPosted by Davlok
3. Spirit Generation Rankings (2.1)

Single Target Spirit Generation Ranking
    FoT: Q 100%
    CW: RT 70%
    FoT (base) 70%
    DR (base) 59%
    WotHF (base) 58%
    CW (base) 58%

4+ Target Spirit Generation Ranking
    CW: RT 100%
    FoT: Q 94%
    FoT (base) 66%
    DR (base) 56%
    WotHF (base) 55%
    CW (base) 55%

10+ Target Spirit Generation Ranking
    CW: RT 100%
    FoT: Q 56%
    FoT (base) 39%
    DR (base) 33%
    WotHF (base) 32%
    CW (base) 32%

FoT:Quickening still being the best single target spirit generator for generating spirit, while CW: Rising Tide winning out if you expect to be in combat with more than 3 targets the great majority of the time. Those are the two most recommended generators for Raiment in Seasons I think, with Blazing Fists being the people's choice. Don't discount the base debuff Crippling Wave has as well! Non-seasons have a bit more flavor since most high GR builds require something to proc Ancient Parthan Defenders - usually Tsunami or Wind Blast.

So everything is still valid for 2.2, but I'll hold off until 2.3 PTR to re-test everything ^^
The spirit generation rankings should all be still valid for 2.2, nothing changed as far as spirit generation rankings since 2.1. Everything from the damage rankings to innate attack speeds should still hold true.


Thank you! Exactly what i wanted to know.
I don't understand any of the rest in your message as I just started playing after a 3 year break, but I'll get there :)
As one of the many Raiment Monks who use BoH:Infused with Light, I wanted to make sure the spirit gen ranking still held true, especially for those Dual Wielders (such as I) who have 100% uptime on IwL. The rankings stayed essentially the same, but gap was reduced quite a bit between the top generator and the 'rest', as the flat +14 spirit per hit evened things out quite a bit:

Single Target Spirit Generation Ranking with 100% Uptime on IWL
    FoT: Q 100%
    CW: RT 81%
    FoT (base) 82%
    DR (base) 75%
    WotHF (base) 74%
    CW (base) 74%

4+ Target Spirit Generation Ranking with 100% Uptime on IWL
    CW: RT 100%
    FoT: Q 98%
    FoT (base) 81%
    DR (base) 74%
    WotHF (base) 72%
    CW (base) 72%

10+ Target Spirit Generation Ranking with 100% Uptime on IWL
    CW: RT 100%
    FoT: Q 69%
    FoT (base) 57%
    DR (base) 52%
    WotHF (base) 51%
    CW (base) 51%
Good monks such as Bigluf try to WEAVE spenders to avoid the 3rd hit. The frist two hits of every generator are faster than the 3rd.

More Info here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16773347364
03/23/2015 06:14 AMPosted by Davlok
Yea, Broken Promises was nerfed into the ground the last PTR iteration. The text of the affix reads: "After five consecutive non-critical hits, your chance to critically hit is increased by 100% for 3 seconds". What it should actually read is: "After five consecutive non-critical ATTACKS"


dont mean to beat a dead horse here but and I know this is an old post, but I think its just that the ICD is there and attacks will generally fall in that window but I'm pretty sure any crit during that time resets. WotHF is terrible teeeeerrible for bP .. DR / FoT even CW isnt that bad.
05/28/2015 11:03 AMPosted by Davlok
As one of the many Raiment Monks who use BoH:Infused with Light, I wanted to make sure the spirit gen ranking still held true, especially for those Dual Wielders (such as I) who have 100% uptime on IwL.


IwL question I dont feel like testing and I'm pretty sure I know the answer to but ells I'll ask anyway.

For something like Rising Tide BoH isn't giving an extra boost for every enemy hit just the initial swing and RT gives the 2.5 or wtv per mob right?
06/17/2015 06:04 PMPosted by Darth
For something like Rising Tide BoH isn't giving an extra boost for every enemy hit just the initial swing and RT gives the 2.5 or wtv per mob right?

Yes.
With the new Shenlong in PTR, I think it's time to bump this up!

Great job Davlok! Thank you very much.
^_^ keep in mind the rankings don't take into account some of the more interesting decisions of spirit generator selection such as Elemental Type as well as actual Area of Effect. FoT also has a teleport that used to matter before Epiphany. It seems like with the current R2+Shen builds Mangle is the most effective DPS generator since it's area of effect is much larger than FoF's.

Range/AoE for Generators:
FoT: 20 yd teleport range
DR: Frontal Line (7 > 10 > 13 yd wide)
CW: Frontal Arc (90° > 180° > 360°)
WotHF: Frontal Cone AoE (FoF 15 yard teleport)

I'll try and re-test some spirit generators once the PTR settles down - probably after the buff goes away).
Some quick napkin analysis on Mangle vs Fists of Fury for an R2 generator build.

I was kind of surprised when I saw no one using FoF on PTR with R2 generator builds, but after a quick GR55 myself realized why Mangle was the picked more often. The damage charts I put together didn't multiply the damage dealt by the actual area of effect; it just assumed it all generators would be able to hit the same number of multiple targets, when in reality it is pretty dang hard to hit a ton of mobs with FoF's 2nd strike even with cyclone strike.

Currently Fists of Fury does 1.45x the damage of Mangle... as long as you hit the same number of targets (single target, 4x targets, 1000x targets).

Estimated Area of Each Strike:
FoF Strike 1 = 6 yard frontal 90° cone = 28.3
FoF Strike 2 = 6 yard frontal 90° cone = 28.3
FoF Strike 3 = 6 yard radius circle 6 yard offset = 113.1
Mangle Strike 1 = 90° cone 10 yard radius = 78.5
Mangle Strike 2 = 180° cone 10 yard radius = 157.1
Mangle Strike 3 = 360° 11 yard radius = 380.1

* - I'm not 100% confident in these CW or WotHF hitbox sizing as they are just pulled from the game guide(s) so didn't read too much into this napkin. I even suspect FoF's cone being smaller.

Multiplying the damage per strike by the area per strike gets you a sort of "damage density" value that is fairly valid for the types of density we need in GR55+ to be able to progress fast enough.

Estimated Damage Density
FoF Strike 1 = 70.7
FoF Strike 2 = 172.5
FoF Strike 3 = 282.7
Mangle Strike 1 = 200.3
Mangle Strike 2 = 400.6
Mangle Strike 3 = 969.3

Conclusion:
In Implosion assisted high density GRs, Mangle will do approximately 3 times the damage of Fists of Fury. FoF will still deal 1.45x the damage to single targets such as the RG, but that ratio of time-spent clearing trash vs GR will be much different than it is today.
07/23/2015 08:14 AMPosted by Davlok
Some quick napkin analysis on Mangle vs Fists of Fury for an R2 generator build.

I was kind of surprised when I saw no one using FoF on PTR with R2 generator builds, but after a quick GR55 myself realized why Mangle was the picked more often. The damage charts I put together didn't multiply the damage dealt by the actual area of effect; it just assumed it all generators would be able to hit the same number of multiple targets, when in reality it is pretty dang hard to hit a ton of mobs with FoF's 2nd strike even with cyclone strike.

Currently Fists of Fury does 1.45x the damage of Mangle... as long as you hit the same number of targets (single target, 4x targets, 1000x targets).

Estimated Area of Each Strike:
FoF Strike 1 = 6 yard frontal 90° cone = 28.3
FoF Strike 2 = 6 yard frontal 90° cone = 28.3
FoF Strike 3 = 6 yard radius circle 6 yard offset = 113.1
Mangle Strike 1 = 90° cone 10 yard radius = 78.5
Mangle Strike 2 = 180° cone 10 yard radius = 157.1
Mangle Strike 3 = 360° 11 yard radius = 380.1

* - I'm not 100% confident in these CW or WotHF hitbox sizing as they are just pulled from the game guide(s) so didn't read too much into this napkin. I even suspect FoF's cone being smaller.

Multiplying the damage per strike by the area per strike gets you a sort of "damage density" value that is fairly valid for the types of density we need in GR55+ to be able to progress fast enough.

Estimated Damage Density
FoF Strike 1 = 70.7
FoF Strike 2 = 172.5
FoF Strike 3 = 282.7
Mangle Strike 1 = 200.3
Mangle Strike 2 = 400.6
Mangle Strike 3 = 969.3

Conclusion:
In Implosion assisted high density GRs, Mangle will do approximately 3 times the damage of Fists of Fury. FoF will still deal 1.45x the damage to single targets such as the RG, but that ratio of time-spent clearing trash vs GR will be much different than it is today.


I thank you for this Dav!

As for single target, which one would you think is stronger?

Mangle with 40% Fire damage vs FoF with 0% Holy damage

I think FoF will still be better but i just wanna know by how much since FoF has its DOTs and i might calculate it wrong lol
Really appreciate your work, Davlok! Thank you very much for everything.

Mangle kicks, that's for sure. But I still wonder why nobody is picking FoT - Static Charge. It's 180% buffed by chance, but regarding IAS with cubed FD and each HIT (not attack) being able to proc the Charge ... it must be really strong too, even with a 20% chance. It's hard to estimate how often it procs, but personally, i think the chance is significantly higher - i'd go for 30-35%). AoE is underestimated there because of the mini teleport. But yeah, I should probably play some PTR -.-
08/02/2015 12:58 AMPosted by imprdl
As for single target, which one would you think is stronger?

Mangle with 40% Fire damage vs FoF with 0% Holy damage

I think FoF will still be better but i just wanna know by how much since FoF has its DOTs and i might calculate it wrong lol

Without taking +Fire into account, FoF will deal ~45% more damage as long as you hit the same number of target(s). But I assume your 40% extra Fire damage is coming from Cinder/Magefist which closes that gap pretty easily, and Mangle wins on the AoE size. A Holy build focused on FoF and Mirinae will probably work well for certain difficulties, but Mirinae just doesn't scale as well due to proc coefficents still. Bane of the Stricken looks perfect for generator builds.

08/02/2015 06:47 AMPosted by RiemeKüsu
Really appreciate your work, Davlok! Thank you very much for everything.

Mangle kicks, that's for sure. But I still wonder why nobody is picking FoT - Static Charge. It's 180% buffed by chance, but regarding IAS with cubed FD and each HIT (not attack) being able to proc the Charge ... it must be really strong too, even with a 20% chance. It's hard to estimate how often it procs, but personally, i think the chance is significantly higher - i'd go for 30-35%). AoE is underestimated there because of the mini teleport. But yeah, I should probably play some PTR -.-

I remember I tried to model how good Static Charge was early in RoS, but it was highly dependent on density. The main problem is the first 2 punches of FoT is always only single target, so only the 3rd punch would be able to proc a lot of staic charges. That and the debuff need to be applied and has a finite duration that it would have to be a much higher proc chance to be worth it. But the proc does look pretty cool ^_^

(old year and a half old analysis: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11882328396?page=2#24)

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