[Theory] Item Tiering - Torment will have better gear

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Droth, I love your idea of affix ranges getting better and better as you progress. It really gives a 'meaty' incentive to pushing for harder difficulties, and does add a progressive curve to the game.

One thing I'd like to add is a progressively increasing chance at 'smart' set drops as difficulties increase, as well as legendaries identified as being 'build changing'.

So if you want that Thunderfury everyone covets, or that Cindercoat that will let you try out that fire build you've been dying to try, it makes sense to push yourself to slog it through a higher tier level, rather than mindlessly one shotting everything in a lower tier level.

One of the biggest problems with the game at the moment is that it rewards efficient play. It doesn't reward challenging play. This was the paradigm in Vanilla, and it needs to change.
03/08/2014 09:37 PMPosted by Zannis
Droth, I love your idea of affix ranges getting better and better as you progress. It really gives a 'meaty' incentive to pushing for harder difficulties, and does add a progressive curve to the game.

Thank you. ^.^

IMO it's really the best way to reward higher difficulties in RoS without increasing the drop rate of items.

Or some combination of slightly higher droprates with higher rolls and certain items being restricted to Torment.

A combination of those 3 things really plays out well here.

My fear is that too many people will complain about the torment only Legendaries and Blizzard will lift the restriction. Then Torment will really have nothing going for it other than gold / xp which is already really easy to math out.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
03/08/2014 02:44 PMPosted by DrothVader
All I know is this.

The first item came from Normal.

The second item came from Torment.

The game guide shows 2 roll ranges.


Seems wrong though.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/omgooses-1596/hero/40199646

see those poorly rolled bracers im using? they came from running t4

nice theory though. keep it up
03/08/2014 10:00 PMPosted by omgooses
03/08/2014 02:44 PMPosted by DrothVader
All I know is this.

The first item came from Normal.

The second item came from Torment.

The game guide shows 2 roll ranges.


Seems wrong though.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/omgooses-1596/hero/40199646

see those poorly rolled bracers im using? they came from running t4

nice theory though. keep it up

That's why I'm thinking maybe it's not guaranteed, but instead that Torment might have a higher chance to produce it.

I think at this point it's pretty safe to say that it's not guaranteed to have that roll range, what needs to be clarified is whether or not difficulty has an influence on how often you can find the higher tier.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
03/08/2014 10:27 PMPosted by KTap
Do you just come on here when you're drunk and ramble about things?

If I was drunk the world would be a better place.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
03/08/2014 10:00 PMPosted by omgooses
03/08/2014 02:44 PMPosted by DrothVader
All I know is this.

The first item came from Normal.

The second item came from Torment.

The game guide shows 2 roll ranges.


Seems wrong though.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/omgooses-1596/hero/40199646

see those poorly rolled bracers im using? they came from running t4

nice theory though. keep it up


My guess is that higher Torment settings increases the likelihood of rolling the better stat tier, but it's not a guarantee.

Likewise, there's probably a small chance in Normal-Master of rolling the high stat tiers, but it's more likely you'll see the lower stat tier more often.

We won't know until devs confirm how this works, if they even divulge this at all. It's quite possible they want the theorycrafters to figure this out without dev intervention.
03/08/2014 10:36 PMPosted by Zannis
We won't know until devs confirm how this works, if they even divulge this at all. It's quite possible they want the theorycrafters to figure this out without dev intervention.

I'll start recording all of my Legendary items.

I'll record how often I get a higher tier on Torment, and how often I get it on Normal, and see if I can figure it out.

It'll probably take a Month though to get a large enough sample size, it'd be a lot easier if someone could just clarify.

They don't even need to go into detail, a simple yes or no would suffice.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
So, if the theory is correct... what is the difference between torments? I agree the torment verse earlier difficulties shows a disparity, but I don't see anything solid to suggest T6 is any better than T1, stat-wise.
03/08/2014 07:46 PMPosted by Phil
03/08/2014 02:34 PMPosted by KhaoS
Well then I'm glad I've been farming chests on Torment then.

No way in Hell I'll ever go below Torment even on fresh 70, why bother with items that roll lower?

It really depends on the quality of your gear when you hit the level cap I think. If your gear is good then going on Torment I at least is feasible but if it isn't then you should probably go on master difficulty.


Gear / Paragon points to spend we obtain now should be enough to jump straight into Torment 1 on level 70, especially Set bonuses will make that possible, also stats like % elemental dmg increase, skill % increase, % damage vs elites etc, 2.0 gear has a lot of toughness so no wories there either.

Personally I'll never do anything below T1 because of Torment only drops, really don't see the point.
03/09/2014 12:43 AMPosted by KhaoS
Gear / Paragon points to spend we obtain now should be enough to jump straight into Torment 1 on level 70, especially Set bonuses will make that possible, also stats like % elemental dmg increase, skill % increase, % damage vs elites etc, 2.0 gear has a lot of toughness so no wories there either.

You'll need around 5-7m toughness to tackle Torment I at 70. Just an FYI.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
03/08/2014 05:29 PMPosted by TheTias
Either could explain how your LV 59 item rolled those ranges.


That is why I said that it doesnt make it impossible, but it doesnt exactly speak for difficulty tiering as well. Again: we simply dont know at this point, it might be there, it might not. We dont have ANY indication either way apart from that it would seem logical for them to do some difficulty tiering.

And the difference between making the safety net public or a difficulty tiering is this:

The safety net is supposed to be something working in the background, something that 99% of the player base should never actually experience.

A difficulty tiering is something that would actually affect the majority of the player base, since it would be an integral part of the incentive structure.

So, if they implemented it, and not disclose that information, it is a big fail, but so is not implementing it and still having tiers on items which simply increases RNG.

@cheetah: a tiering system does not necessarily work as you envision it. If all it does is increase chances the higher you get in the difficulty, as such still giving you the possibility to get all ranges on normal (as seen with my ilvl59 item) then it would not force anyone to or exclude anyone from anything.
03/08/2014 07:33 PMPosted by Socs
I deserve the same gear as you no matter what Torment tier.


no you dont, you deserve gear based on what you do in the game, not getting handouts. You deserve the same chances as others do, meaning that you have the same means at your hands as others do to progress. If you dont want to progress you still deserve a chance at the same items, but not the same chance.
Droth, I love your idea of affix ranges getting better and better as you progress. It really gives a 'meaty' incentive to pushing for harder difficulties, and does add a progressive curve to the game.

One thing I'd like to add is a progressively increasing chance at 'smart' set drops as difficulties increase, as well as legendaries identified as being 'build changing'.

So if you want that Thunderfury everyone covets, or that Cindercoat that will let you try out that fire build you've been dying to try, it makes sense to push yourself to slog it through a higher tier level, rather than mindlessly one shotting everything in a lower tier level.


One of the biggest problems with the game at the moment is that it rewards efficient play. It doesn't reward challenging play. This was the paradigm in Vanilla, and it needs to change.


This is perfect, i like Droth idea. but has you mentioned, ok, increase the leg drop rate,gold and xp,but i would like to have more chance to find a good legendary like the Thunderfury that is really hard to get or whatever is awesome..

many people are complaining that are finding legendary crap, and like me who always find copies 2-3 for the same leg,this isn't right for me,but if you implement a mechanism like this,can help a lot, because when you play torment, you know that sooner or later something wondeful can come out

Sorry for my English
Interesting, but in the same regard, why bother with torment 6 then, if you can also play torment 1?

I know XO and gold, but is it really worthwhile?

At least a "symbolic" Itemquantity increase in higher torment would be cool.
03/09/2014 01:30 AMPosted by Nasabot
Interesting, but in the same regard, why bother with torment 6 then, if you can also play torment 1?

I know XO and gold, but is it really worthwhile?


XP and gold will be very worthwhile to those who need it. Especially gold, considering you'll run through a ton of it when crafting max level gems or using the Mystic.

The higher the level, the more gold you find. So, regardless of whether you speed run Normals or trudge through T3, you're handicapping yourself in the long run, from a gold perspective alone.

Unless you have billions or trillions of gold, in which case the Mystic lottery is probably going to be a mini-game frequented by players with the funds.
03/09/2014 01:30 AMPosted by Nasabot
Interesting, but in the same regard, why bother with torment 6 then, if you can also play torment 1?

I know XO and gold, but is it really worthwhile?

At least a "symbolic" Itemquantity increase in higher torment would be cool.

You know, I have a feeling that this whole 2 item tier thing is just a giant play on my original suggestion here.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10950255097

In my proposal I wanted the game to tighten the roll ranges as you progressed into the higher tiers of Torment.

I have a feeling (I would still like it to be confirmed that it does indeed work this way) that instead of taking that suggestion verbatim, they instead instituted 2 tiers on certain item rolls like Primary Stats.

Now, these are not exact numbers as I'm just spitballing here, but maybe it works like this.

Normal - 90% chance for Tier 1, 10% chance for Tier 2.
Hard - 80% chance for Tier 1, 20% chance for Tier 2.
Expert - 70% chance for Tier 1, 30% chance for Tier 2.
Master - 60% chance for Tier 1, 40% chance for Tier 2.
Torment I - 50% chance for Tier 1, 50% chance for Tier 2.
Torment II - 40% chance for Tier 1, 60% chance for Tier 2.
Torment III - 30% chance for Tier 1, 70% chance for Tier 2.
Torment IV - 20% chance for Tier 1, 80% chance for Tier 2.
Torment V - 10% chance for Tier 1, 90% chance for Tier 2.
Torment VI - 0% chance for Tier 1, 100% chance for Tier 2.

IF it indeed does work this way, then the developers do in fact know what they're doing and the game is more rewarding on higher difficulty levels.

HOWEVER, if the game DOES NOT work this way then the devs have absolutely no clue what they're doing and the lower tier needs removed.

TBH, I actually like this system better than the one I proposed because it doesn't shorten the life span of the game by literally guaranteeing a max roll at Torment VI.

I really need some clarification on this because knowing this information will either make me absurdly happy or incredibly upset.

As I said though, it wouldn't make sense to not let difficulty influence this.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
Below is an image link to the 'unity ring' http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/unity obtained from a normal difficulty run in hardcore. As you can clearly see the it rolled the higher tier on LOH.

http://i.imgur.com/bIVwklH.jpg
03/10/2014 06:40 PMPosted by Crovakiet
Below is an image link to the 'unity ring' http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/unity obtained from a normal difficulty run in hardcore. As you can clearly see the it rolled the higher tier on LOH.

http://i.imgur.com/bIVwklH.jpg

Just hang tight with all of this for a few days.

For right now, this is just a theory.
________________________________________________
Any information posted above is usually wrong and can be safely ignored.
You can find more of my rants here: http://www.drothvader.org
"Hey, don't nerf my 'fun', bro." - Drothvader, Destroyer of Fun
Truthfully, there need to be MORE tiers.

Each difficulty should have significantly better minimum rolls as that is the equipment necessary for survival on that tier and beyond.

Each difficulty should also have slightly larger maximum rolls as well to help motivate growth by playing through each difficulty.

In addition, Torment should allow a tertiary wildcard roll (can be any stat from either table) as this would make it so ANYONE can see that Torment items are better.

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