[ROS monk guide]Dmg Buff and Monster Debuff

Monk
Patch 2.0.4 Update: Now elite dmg buff is additive, so this put them into a separate category and it mulitplies with other categories of buffs/debuffs. I have updated the post accordingly

Monk probably has the biggest variety of damage buffs and monster debuffs. In 2.0 blizzard introduced a few new skill buffs and reworked quite some dmg buff and monster debuffs,

This post/thread is to provide the latest information on how these damage buffs and monster debuffs interact with each other. Please let me know if there is incorrect/inaccurate information, I will edit the post accordingly once confirmed.

Part I: Common categories of damage buffs and monster debuffs

1) Type A: direct dmg/dps buff,
Such buff usually is described as “increase your dmg or dmg of your attack by XXX%).
Such buff will show up in your panel dps when activated
Eg: Monk’s Breath of heaven with blazing wrath

2) Type B: regular monster debuff
Such debuff usually is described as “monsters/enemies take XXX% increased dmg”
Such debuff will NOT show up in your panel dps when activated
Eg: Monk’s mantra of conviction; Monk’s EP with the flesh is weak
Eg: From Gears: Strongarm’s bracer: Enemies hit by knockbacks suffer 20–30% more damage for 5 seconds when they land.

3) Type C: skill dmg bonus%
Such buff usually is described as increase certain skill’s dmg by xxx%
Eg: Inna’s belt with WOTHF bonus dmg : Increases Way of the Hundred Fists Damage by 10–15%

4) Type D: xxx dmg bonus of skills of certain elemental type
This is a new affix introduced in 2.0 and ROS, it is usually described as “ Lightning/fire/poison/cold/physical/arcane/holy skills deal XXX% more dmg”
Eg: On rare bracers and legendary bracers

5) Type E: Elite dmg buff.
Such buff is usually described as “increase dmg against elites by xx%”. Different elite dmg buff pieces are additive, but elite dmg buff as a separate category is multiplicative with other buffs and debuffs
Eg: Soj, Unity, Diamond in weapons.

Part II: How do these buffs/debuffs interact with each other:

Step 1: Type A, B, and C mentioned above work in an additive way

The formula is: 1*(1 +A%+B%+C%)

Step 2: Type D works with A/B/C in a multiplicative way, but multiple items with the same type D affix work in an additive way

The formula is : 1* (1+D1%+D2%+D3%) if you only have type D buff
or 1* (1+A%+B%+C%)*(1+D1%+D2%+D3%) if you have both A, B, C and D types of buff/debuff

Step 3: synergy with Type E debuff, Type E works with (A+B+C) and D in a multiplicative way

The formula is: 1* (1+A%+B%+C%)*(1+D1%+D2%+D3%) * (1+E1%+E2%+E3%)
Skill bonuses really count as additive +%Dmg mods? That is terrible design.

I am upset just hearing that.

Nice math btw Neuron! :D
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Druin, the happy monk
03/24/2014 04:33 PMPosted by Druin
Skill bonuses really count as additive +%Dmg mods? That is terrible design.


I am afraid so....., but at least it is multiplicative with element skill dmg bonus ^.^

Also on Blinding flash, I haven't tested it or read any test reports on how this works in 2.0, but my guess is that since blinding flash:Faith in the light is weapon aps specific, highly likely it will work the same way as in 108.
Faith is just another flat +%dmg buff now. It will give 29% no matter what your weapon's DPS/APS are.

Nerf ... c'est la vie!
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"Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing at all" ~ HK
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Druin, the happy monk
Hi Neuron,

Thanks for working on this. It's definitely something we need!!!

Are you sure about class A and class B just adding together? That makes no sense to me (even though I've used A+B to approximate their effectiveness many times in the past).

I'd put money on it being (1+A)(1+B).

Mind explaining how this was tested?
Hi Vox,

I wasn't the person who did the test. But this was the way back in 108 and recently another barb tested and confirmed this.

But I can briefly explain how the test was done.

So we went to the heart of sin (after kill cydaea), first step is to stablize your attack, make your min/max the same (usually by putting on a min dmg ring).

First test Type B, using OVERAWE + Crippling wave: Breaking wave ---> the conclusion is for Type B the formula is 1+B1%+B2%

Then Test Type A + Type B, using breath of heaven: Blazing wrath + OVERAWE+ Breaking WAVE --> turned out that the formula is 1+A%+B1%+B2%
(at that time, the player actually tested A1 and A2 using blazing wrath and inner sanctuary when it has a dmg buff rune, and the formula is 1+A1+A2+B1+B2)

I was actually disappointed by how bliz synergize A/B and type C, because it doesn't make sense to make additive for skill speicific dmg bonus.
03/24/2014 05:07 PMPosted by Druin
Faith is just another flat +%dmg buff now. It will give 29% no matter what your weapon's DPS/APS are.


hmm, I wonder whether this puts Faith into the additive type A category or still hold as independent and multiplicative category (like Type F)
Hello Neuron,

nice summary...

FitL is calculated now very simple and works like other "paper-DPS-buffs" (Foresight, Breath of Heaven etc). Just additive and multiply with average weapon damage.

Multiply again with IAS and you will get your paper-DPS ;o)

Regarding IAS, this is also additive, except the enchantress is spending 0.03 ApS on each weapon (not 3% IAS)

Greetings
Carfesch
Thanks so much for this!

I have been wondering how strongarm stacks with mantra of conviction for a while. This clears that up makes Strongarms and MoC look good. Category I is pretty thin in terms of a typical class and gear build...maybe you will see a couple of pieces of +skill damage, and DH's bring their MFD. Other than that there isn't much in Category I.

I also learned that Category II - elemental damage doesn't add with anything else, and is therefore better, point for point, than +skill damage, even if you're only using the one skill.
This post makes me question if anyone at Blizzard understands math. Treating +element and +skill differently is bizarre, although each approach could be justified. My big concern is diminishing returns on +enemy type. This isn't disappointing; it makes no sense. That second +elite bonus doesn't do the damage it says it does by any stretch of the imagination.

Certainly multiplicative buffs are more powerful than additive buffs (when talking damage dealt where we want large numbers - it's the opposite for damage received where we want to reach 0), so it's no surprise that we're happier to learn something is multiplicative than additive. But at least additive buffs make sense: they increase the base damage by the stated amount. I don't even know what to call the +enemy type buffs though, since they don't make sense mathematically. They increase the base damage by the stated amount - then reduce that amount based on the previous increases to damage. Basically something with a +3% damage to elites (of which there are several) is almost useless if you already have a SoJ equipped. (OK so 2.1% bonus isn't useless, but it's still a huge disappointment, not to mention difficult to assess in terms of upgrades.)

Maybe I'm just bitter though, because my 36% bonus to elites is only actually 33.4%.

-Hawk
Bump for awareness as I see many players still asking questions around this topic.
updated elite dmg to match with 2.0.4 patch.
An example would be good, my last maths class was a long time ago.

Here is how I understand it according to your guide, please correct me if I'm wrong but it makes it seem like elite damage is far to powerful. I had always thought it added all the buffs/ debuffs together and multiplied it by base damage.

And are you basing this from 1.08 results, that seems unwise.

Part A, B, C

I hit an Elite for 100 Lightning damage with fists of thunder.
I have the mob debuffed with manta of conviction (10%), I hit for 110 damage,
I have the mob debuffed with the flesh is weak (20%) I hit for 130 damage
I am buffed with combination strike (10%) I hit for 140 Damage
I have +10% damage FoT on my belt I hit for 150 Damage

Part D

I am using Thundergods Vigor and WKL I have +40% Lighting damage
I hit for 210 damage (150x1.4)

Part E
I have Arghilds 2 piece and Stone of Jordan (15% Elite Damage 30% elite) totaling 45%
I hit for 304.5 (210x1.45)
@Kegsta

Your interpretation is correct.

Also most of the tests were confirmed in 2.0. I haven't confirmed the new changes in elite dmg, but if it says in the panel in game, it is likely to be true.
thanks for info
It seems bizare that debuffs and buffs scale additively. I mean it makes sense from a balance perspective, but in terms of damage calculations it's just really strange. One would think you fire an ability, which was calculated upon firing and it then hit for that damage * any modifiers the target might have.

It also seems absurd that skills are additive with buffs and debuffs, and not with elemental skill damage.
Thanks for all the great testing, OP. I wanted to chime in here and add my corroboration. Just wanted to bold in the most important part at the outset:

Mythic Rhythm is multiplicative with everything and not additive with anything. The same is true with several DH passives that have similar properties described below.


Here's my copypasta from a DH thread ( http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12506542180?page=4#78 ):
Confirmed by myself as well. I went through some exhausting, extensive testing on both monk and DH. I did a lot of google/forum searching but didn't find anything that looked trustworthy. I hadn't come upon this thread unfortunately.

For "independent modifiers" below, we don't necessarily have to make a set of rules that logically separate them from the rest. They are multiplied independently, for whatever the reason. But from what I've seen, they do have several conditions in common (check below).

Rough DPS Formula
WDmg * APS * MainAttribute * Crit * EleSkill * Elites * (Grouped Modifiers) * (Independent Modifiers)
Grouped Modifiers - Skill Damage+, Items/Skills that give buffs, Items/Skills that modify sheet DPS, Item/Skill debuffs.

Independent Modifiers - Seem to be passives that do not debuff the enemy, show a buff icon, or increase your DPS as shown on sheet.
Great thread! Thanks for posting.

Where do gems fit in?

Someone said they were 'multiplicative' and that this thread would explain, but I'm still not able to work it out from just that info alone.

Is it:

(A+B+C)+(gemdmg)+(D-total)+(E-total)

(A+B+C)+(D-total)+(gemdmg)+(E-total)

(A+B+C)+(D-total)+(E-total)+(gemdmg%)

or none of the above?

Much Love x
08/03/2014 09:57 AMPosted by Kolonel
Great thread! Thanks for posting.

Where do gems fit in?

Someone said they were 'multiplicative' and that this thread would explain, but I'm still not able to work it out from just that info alone.

Is it:

(A+B+C)+(gemdmg)+(D-total)+(E-total)

(A+B+C)+(D-total)+(gemdmg)+(E-total)

(A+B+C)+(D-total)+(E-total)+(gemdmg%)

or none of the above?

Much Love x


I think gems are Type A: Direct Damage Buffs. At least that's what makes most sense to me....I could be very wrong.
08/03/2014 09:57 AMPosted by Kolonel
Great thread! Thanks for posting.

Where do gems fit in?

Someone said they were 'multiplicative' and that this thread would explain, but I'm still not able to work it out from just that info alone.

Is it:

(A+B+C)+(gemdmg)+(D-total)+(E-total)

(A+B+C)+(D-total)+(gemdmg)+(E-total)

(A+B+C)+(D-total)+(E-total)+(gemdmg%)

or none of the above?

Much Love x


Hi, I haven't got all the gems to test around, but from what I got on PTR, most of the gems fall either into Type A or B or C (Which means they are additive instead of multiplicative)

Here are a few gems those involve this kind of buff/debuff calculation:

1) Gem of Efficacious Toxin: Rank 50 All enemies you poison take 10% increased damage from all sources. (Requires Rank 50)

This is type B, so additive with Type A, B and C

2) Simplicity's Strength
Description: Increase the damage of Primary skills by 50%

This is type C

3) Bane of the Powerful
Gain 30% increased damage for 20 seconds after killing an elite pack.
Increases damage against elites by 20% (Requires Rank 50)

This gems regular effect is Type A, it's Rank 50 or higher elite dmg is Elite dmg bonus, which is type E

4) Taeguk
Gain 1% increased damage for 3 seconds after spending primary resource. This effect stacks up to 10 times. Gaining a stack refreshes all existing stacks.

This is strictly type A

In addition:

Momentum, Combination strike, Determination passives are all type A, they are additive.
Hex Pants' buff is also type A if they are activated.

Mythic Rhythm is independent modifier and it is multiplicative on top of everything else, but it is conditional.

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