ww is toooooooo weak

Barbarian
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I don't think WW needs a huge increase in damage but I'd go for 50 - 75% more damage for 100% more fury. I don't think they can really mess with the proc rate all that much of life on hit will make it OP again.
The tests were carried out with SOH, that clearly favors fury generators on top of the fact that all the charged bolts can hit Ghom easily with them.

Not saying WW is in a good spot, but the numbers in this test has no meaning since SOH has a crappy proc rate with WW
+1000. pls buff ww
Use ww as fury gainer and sustain.. cmon creativity ppl lolol
I wouldn't mind an increase in fury cost but also an increase in damage.

It should always do less DPS than hota of course.

04/20/2014 08:18 PMPosted by Whorhay
I don't think WW needs a huge increase in damage but I'd go for 50 - 75% more damage for 100% more fury. I don't think they can really mess with the proc rate all that much of life on hit will make it OP again.

Something like this would be nice. Then again, they don't read class forums.
04/20/2014 08:48 PMPosted by BTLightDash
The tests were carried out with SOH, that clearly favors fury generators on top of the fact that all the charged bolts can hit Ghom easily with them.

Not saying WW is in a good spot, but the numbers in this test has no meaning since SOH has a crappy proc rate with WW


yes that why ww is so crap, as a fury spender it is really too underperforming.
I miss my WW/Rend/HOTA hybrid build. That build had all I need to deal with all sorts of situations and monsters. :-(

Now, we have to either be WW or HOTA or something else. The gear it takes to have an effective build would make it near impossible to incorporate other builds effectively to have a hybrid build that you can use for trash, elite packs and bosses.

Gear dependence of each build has polarized barbs. Creativity for me is having a build that would work effectively in any situation. I love the paragon points that I can reassign to suit my needs (maxing out res all when I'm doing Ghom kill runs) but it's not enough to bridge the gap between different builds to not necessitate changing gears to play other builds.

I have a Devastator and Sankis to play fire HOTA build, TF and Fulminator to play WW lightning... Now if I can only find a way to have a WW/HOTA hybrid build, I'd be in cloud 9 again.
04/20/2014 08:18 PMPosted by Whorhay
I don't think WW needs a huge increase in damage but I'd go for 50 - 75% more damage for 100% more fury. I don't think they can really mess with the proc rate all that much of life on hit will make it OP again.


I disagree. I believe they need to completely revamp proc rates, maybe on the order of "doubling it"

1000-2000 LOH is nothing now that our HP pools are 500k+, not 50k like in Vanilla.

Also the low proc % were meant to keep us from achieving Perma Wrath through Into the Fray and Perma Freeze for Wiz through Critical Mass too easily, but now that those mechanics have been removed from the game (Crit ----> Resource) it simply makes no sense to still keep the super low proc %.

As hard as it is to say, wizards have it even worse than us when it comes to Proc % on skills.
04/21/2014 01:29 AMPosted by MasterPUA
I miss my WW/Rend/HOTA hybrid build. That build had all I need to deal with all sorts of situations and monsters. :-(

Now, we have to either be WW or HOTA or something else. The gear it takes to have an effective build would make it near impossible to incorporate other builds effectively to have a hybrid build that you can use for trash, elite packs and bosses.

Gear dependence of each build has polarized barbs. Creativity for me is having a build that would work effectively in any situation. I love the paragon points that I can reassign to suit my needs (maxing out res all when I'm doing Ghom kill runs) but it's not enough to bridge the gap between different builds to not necessitate changing gears to play other builds.

I have a Devastator and Sankis to play fire HOTA build, TF and Fulminator to play WW lightning... Now if I can only find a way to have a WW/HOTA hybrid build, I'd be in cloud 9 again.


Master, I run a WW Hota build but it's based on Thunderstrike HOTA rune. Use Frenzy Smite for single target (lot of procs with 0.75 coefficient and pretty good damage with high lightning %), WW Windshear for mobility and to generate fury in big groups, then smash the hell out of things with Thunderstrike HOTA.

Standard Battle Rage Bloodshed, Warcry Charge or Impunity, and Sprint Marathon or Forced March for your team.

Passives are Unforgiving, Rampage, Superstition, and Bloodthirst. I handle T3 without any issues on HC mode, and I don't really plan on going above T4 to be honest since the incremental increase in drop % is not worth the risk for me in HC.
04/21/2014 07:06 AMPosted by PwrdOff
04/21/2014 01:29 AMPosted by MasterPUA
I miss my WW/Rend/HOTA hybrid build. That build had all I need to deal with all sorts of situations and monsters. :-(

Now, we have to either be WW or HOTA or something else. The gear it takes to have an effective build would make it near impossible to incorporate other builds effectively to have a hybrid build that you can use for trash, elite packs and bosses.

Gear dependence of each build has polarized barbs. Creativity for me is having a build that would work effectively in any situation. I love the paragon points that I can reassign to suit my needs (maxing out res all when I'm doing Ghom kill runs) but it's not enough to bridge the gap between different builds to not necessitate changing gears to play other builds.

I have a Devastator and Sankis to play fire HOTA build, TF and Fulminator to play WW lightning... Now if I can only find a way to have a WW/HOTA hybrid build, I'd be in cloud 9 again.


Master, I run a WW Hota build but it's based on Thunderstrike HOTA rune. Use Frenzy Smite for single target (lot of procs with 0.75 coefficient and pretty good damage with high lightning %), WW Windshear for mobility and to generate fury in big groups, then smash the hell out of things with Thunderstrike HOTA.

Standard Battle Rage Bloodshed, Warcry Charge or Impunity, and Sprint Marathon or Forced March for your team.

Passives are Unforgiving, Rampage, Superstition, and Bloodthirst. I handle T3 without any issues on HC mode, and I don't really plan on going above T4 to be honest since the incremental increase in drop % is not worth the risk for me in HC.


Thanks for that bro. I've seen a few barbs doing this. I'd prefer not to use a fury generator like Frenzy but I guess that's as close as we can get to a non-fury generator build we loved before RoS. :-)

I just might try it soon. Could be just as fun. I don't play above T3 anyway. At least not yet.
04/20/2014 09:41 AMPosted by MINIKONG
frenzy is 12 sec
cleave is 13 second

and the godly ww is 24 seconds.


embarrassing, ww is weaker then fury builders, lawl!!!
WW dead as disco. spec hammer or slam.

/thread
04/21/2014 08:26 AMPosted by haters
WW dead as disco. spec hammer or slam.

/thread


now my fury genrater does more damage than slam or hota :(
Hmm..

My ww ticks for up to 5M-7M per tick when in wrath and around 2-3M when not in wrath?

I don't feel like the DPS is that weak considering the survivability that moving while attacking provides.

SInce EHP requirements are a little more lenient with WW builds more emphasis can be made on DPS slots?

I'm cruising through T3 solo rifts right now. If I can get some Ice Climbers I have no doubt I can get into T4.

The damage from a raw skill perspective may be weak, but when combined with the right gear it still feels pretty strong.
04/21/2014 08:10 AMPosted by MasterPUA
04/21/2014 07:06 AMPosted by PwrdOff
...

Master, I run a WW Hota build but it's based on Thunderstrike HOTA rune. Use Frenzy Smite for single target (lot of procs with 0.75 coefficient and pretty good damage with high lightning %), WW Windshear for mobility and to generate fury in big groups, then smash the hell out of things with Thunderstrike HOTA.

Standard Battle Rage Bloodshed, Warcry Charge or Impunity, and Sprint Marathon or Forced March for your team.

Passives are Unforgiving, Rampage, Superstition, and Bloodthirst. I handle T3 without any issues on HC mode, and I don't really plan on going above T4 to be honest since the incremental increase in drop % is not worth the risk for me in HC.


Thanks for that bro. I've seen a few barbs doing this. I'd prefer not to use a fury generator like Frenzy but I guess that's as close as we can get to a non-fury generator build we loved before RoS. :-)

I just might try it soon. Could be just as fun. I don't play above T3 anyway. At least not yet.


I hear ya. The thing is Frenzy smite actually does a lot of dmg with enough lightning %. I think i have 90% lightning and each frenzy attack does about 3-4m, plus a TF proc that does 5-6, plus a SOH proc that does 5-6 too. (All yellow number crits)
I'm in agreement here. I will say that while I have no problem surviving in t4 and 5, I just don't do enough damage to make it worthwhile. Granted I have two epic weapons that are a great combo off of each other, but I imagine there aren't a lot of people that have gotten both of these weapons to drop.

Basically the only reason this build is working for me is because of the two weapons, which means that currently, for me at least, ww is completely dependent on my using these two weapons. I don't think this is how any skill should function. I have a Silaria that's 2300+ dps, but my effeciency drops WAY down when I equip it. I get why that happens, as Silaria doesn't have any secondary effects the way that my other two weapons have, but still, it shouldn't take such a nosedive.

WW clearly needs a buff, or at least a re-working of the runes.
04/21/2014 01:29 AMPosted by MasterPUA
I miss my WW/Rend/HOTA hybrid build. That build had all I need to deal with all sorts of situations and monsters. :-(

Now, we have to either be WW or HOTA or something else. The gear it takes to have an effective build would make it near impossible to incorporate other builds effectively to have a hybrid build that you can use for trash, elite packs and bosses.

Gear dependence of each build has polarized barbs. Creativity for me is having a build that would work effectively in any situation. I love the paragon points that I can reassign to suit my needs (maxing out res all when I'm doing Ghom kill runs) but it's not enough to bridge the gap between different builds to not necessitate changing gears to play other builds.

I have a Devastator and Sankis to play fire HOTA build, TF and Fulminator to play WW lightning... Now if I can only find a way to have a WW/HOTA hybrid build, I'd be in cloud 9 again.


I run WW/HOTA but this build is kinda of gear dependant. I have a really good SK, and a really good TF. It works because I have IK4/reapers/luts for fury generation. If you have any HOTA downtime with a lightning HOTA build go Frenzy, but since I've gotten my HOTA uptime really high on this build, it's better. Sometimes when running this build before luts on like a extra health boss, it was like painful to kill with whirlwind. But Luts gives me a good amount of fury now. I still run out of fury on rift guardians which is kinda of pathetic given how much fury gen I have but that's the way it is.

This is the best performance lightning spec I've ran but it's still really really clunky sometimes when I run out of fury.. In a group I tend to run Strong Arm and I don't usually run warcry but blood shed. I'm also pretty sure I could be higher performance with a HOTA smash build and probably not worth it to go fire unti 4 pc EQ.
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)
Nevalistis - Please revisit the proc coefficients on skills such as Whirlwind. I believe they were balanced around the Crit to resource gain engine that is no longer in the game. With the old Into the Fray rune redesigned, does it make sense to have such low proc coefficients on everything?
Wow blue post. I don't actually think it's WW that's the problem. WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren't really good compared with fire. SOH nerf killed lightning as a good late game build choice. Nobody in lightning should complain about single target dps but right now lightning doesn't have anything to offer in AOE dps not like EQ quake or Fire HOTA. Also the lack of lightning Ancient Spear rune makes weapon throw builds gimmicky or at best support role. The build choices are really just extremely limited at this point. Anyways, it's no suprise why fire builds are top tier for multiple classes, Cindercoat. Even without EQ quake fire would still be the only viable top tier Barb build.

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