Horadric Cache Question

Items and Crafting
04/17/2014 08:03 AMPosted by Deadzors
It may be a long shot that I can get some clarification on this qoute

04/16/2014 06:45 PMPosted by Nevalistis

As I mentioned, such coincidences can occur, but should generally be rare. I did experience something similar earlier today, just to check and make sure for myself. A cache obtained by my 70 Wizard gave my 60 Barbarian a set of level 70 shoulders with Strength, but the next cache I gave to my 60 Demon Hunter gave her a level 70 wand with Intelligence.

It would take hundreds of tests to be absolutely certain on an individual level. Luckily, that's something our Quality Assurance team has already been thoroughly over. ;) Items found within should be dependent on the Horadric Cache's acquirer if they roll smart loot, and the Difficulty in which they are acquired or opened should have no bearing on the loot produced.


I usually do my act 1 bounties on Torment 1 difficulty. Yesterday, after turning in the quest and collecting my cache, I opened it up and a Tal Rasha Chest dropped from the cache.

How is this possible if the difficulty has no bearing? Is the fact that I received a Torment only set item from a cache unintended/bugged? Or is it possible to receive Torment only legendary items from a cache if you complete the bounties with the difficulty set at Torment 1 or above? Or is it possible to get this item from a cache on any difficulty, thus voiding the Torment only limitation.

I am aware that you're not supposed to get Torment only legendary's from Kadala using Bloodshards but I'm not totally sure what the limitation are with cache loot, if any at all. I would appreciate some clarification,


Going by what was said earlier, the cache contents are 'keyed' to the level and difficulty you earned it in. If you played a T1 bounty act and opened it later, it's still a T1 cache.
04/17/2014 01:00 PMPosted by Razorback
Going by what was said earlier, the cache contents are 'keyed' to the level and difficulty you earned it in. If you played a T1 bounty act and opened it later, it's still a T1 cache.


It's only somewhat related to the topic in the thread but I felt enough so, especially with a blue's response, that I should bring up my situation.

Basically, I would just like some clarification on Torment-only legendary's and loot possibilities from a cache. And if it is possible to get Torment-only legendary items from a cache.

Because even if you complete those bounties on Torment difficulty and receive a Torment-Only legendary, this makes what the Blue said false in one way or another because then the difficulty would indeed affect the loot in a cache. Maybe not in the manner the the Blue's post was referring to, but it does affect it none the less.
How about the magic find of the character that opens them? Does that matter? Thanks!
I had 15 A1 T2 horadric caches that I farmed on my barb. I opened 14 of them and the mace dropped. I left the mace and the last cache in my bank and switched to my mage. My mage IDs the mace which rolled str for my barbarian and then opened the cache which just happened to drop the same mace but this one rolled int for my mage. Not a unique situation to me so I think that there's probably a double roll occurring. Once for the torment level upon receiving the cache(so you can't jump into T6 etc) and once again for the class/character upon opening. Just my two cents hope it helps.
04/16/2014 06:25 PMPosted by Nevalistis
04/16/2014 02:55 PMPosted by Lucx
To my knowledge, cache contents are determined when your character receives them, not when they are opened.


This should be the case. However, bear in mind that smart loot drops are not always guaranteed, even from Horadric Caches - there's still a chance the items within do not roll appropriately for your character, though the chance for that is fairly low.


Nevalistis, Please confirm your point,. do you know this for a fact or is it conjecture on your part?
(ie: there is a design plan that outlays how cache contents are determined or you actually seen the code)

ie: cache contents are determined when the cache is received from tyrael, or when the cache is opened and item types are rolled?

Allow me to present the argument.

right now, in the absence of your statement, there is nothing that distinguishes a chest predetermining loot it contains vs one that determines loot at the point of opening.

right now, if you have 100 caches and you copy them to ptr. the contents of the PTR copied loot is different.

eg: you copy now, you open 100 caches on ptr. 24 hours later, you copy again and open the same 100 caches on ptr. both set of caches will contain different items.

this implies : if cache contents were determined on collection from tyrael, then someone had to write code to randomise the contents on ptr copy. this to me seems to create more work.

furthermore, like I said earlier, both scenarios have outputs that are identical. (ie: you cannot tell which implementation is true easily).

tests that can tell which scenario is true.

a) you have 100 caches for a long time (1 month). you open them, then you get your character rolled back, and the same 100 caches are opened again.

b) caches are affected by smart loot (as you said) so that a dh obtained cache will inherently have more nats rings, a wd obtained cache will inherently have more zunis so that we can do statistical tests when opening 5000 of these caches with a barb, that even the amount of yellow wands on a wizard obtained cache (opened on barb) will have statistical significance)

c) or even simpler, if chest contents were determined by the person collecting it, then a dh collected chest will have more bows and quivers compared to non dh, even when opened by a wiz and this is trivial to test over 10 caches

---

Occams razor
why i think cache contents are determined on opening a cache based on 3 identifiers (cache player level, cache act and cache difficulty)


assuming cache contents are determined when the cache is created, this is an investment in database and requires a structure/table to contain the items in the live game. when copying over, you randomise the elements of the tables.

whereas if cache contents are not determined on cache creation, you can skip all of that.
one method results in more complexity/work and more database/backup resources.

furthermore, if items are predetermined, then if you save up the caches and open them AFTER the ptr goes live, that would imply if your cache has contents previously determined to be legacy such as vile wards or depth diggers, some one must write the code to crawl through all player's saved caches and convert them from legacy to new.

this is in a way trivial but it still requires work.
eg: if you had 100 items that require conversion,you would need to run a script such as
update tblcachecontents set cacheid = 'depthdiggers_02' where cacheid = 'depthdiggers_01'
update tblcachecontents set cacheid = 'vilewards_02' where cacheid = 'vilewards_01'
...98 more times
etc
and you need to run it for every region of the game as well. then what about game backups?

eg: if a player requires a rollback in time such that their rolled back character's caches were obtain prior to 2.1, then the rolled back cache would have a copy of the legacy item that needs to be altered to the new one.

its seems to be more work for no really good reason . making caches determine drops ONLY when they are opened removes so much additional work and asset consumption, and reduces the risks of mistakes, fat fingers or typos.

---
so what are the actual facts about cache contents? based on the above and occams razor, I would propose that cache contents are determined when the cache is opened based on the following identifiers - (cache level, cache difficulty and cache act)

---
*update: I think I like to add 1 more point of evidence that cache drops are determined only when open (subject to the conditions of being obtained on (cache level, cache difficulty and cache act).

the recent hotfix changed all existing caches so that any of those you kept in storage are also guaranteed to drop a cache legendary at t6.

the amount of work required to retroactively reshuffle predetermined loot content if item types/legends drop were already predetermined would be a huge incredible waste of time.
Ok, this is a certainty. On Saturday I levelled my HC Wizard from 60 to 70 through bounties. I kept 5 caches in my stash and had my level 70 Crusader open them. None dropped a legendary. Except for the occasional bow everything was strength based and everything was either level 61 or 66.
07/07/2014 10:12 PMPosted by Palathas
Ok, this is a certainty. On Saturday I levelled my HC Wizard from 60 to 70 through bounties. I kept 5 caches in my stash and had my level 70 Crusader open them. None dropped a legendary. Except for the occasional bow everything was strength based and everything was either level 61 or 66.



based on the above and occams razor, I would propose that cache contents are determined when the cache is opened based on the following identifiers - (cache level, cache difficulty and cache act)


your statement does not distinguish from the above. ie: your cache contents are based on (lvl 60-69, whatever difficulty you did on your hc wiz and whatever act you did on your hc wiz) the character opening it (crusader) is a given! (ie: smart loot rolls for the opener).
I think I like to add 1 more point of evidence that cache drops are determined only when open (subject to the conditions of being obtained on (cache level, cache difficulty and cache act).

the recent hotfix changed all existing caches so that any of those you kept in storage are also guaranteed to drop a cache legendary at t6.

the amount of work required to retroactively reshuffle predetermined loot content if item types/legends drop were already predetermined would be a huge incredible waste of time.
its weird. initially, i thought cache legs would 'smart loot' off the one that opened ... but it turns out not to be the case.

i farm cache with my DH, and let my barb open them. sometimes i get a dex item, sometimes i get strength, yet other times ... i get int! this happens when i have acquired the same leg twice or thrice within the opening.

the most certain is, opening a cache your character earned ... that will usually smart loot into your characters main stat.
Okay. Weird. I farmed RoRGs on my DH and after getting a natural socket, transferred all my non-IDed RoRGs (four of them) to my intelligence chars. My WD identified 2 and my Wiz identified 2.

All four came out with dexterity as the primary stat and not intelligence.

So my experience is consistent with Nevalistis' explanation.

Oh incidentally, if any of you DHs are banging your head on the wall because you can't get a socket, CC or CD to roll on your RoRGs (puts on the tinfoil hat), try opening a few with your monk.
04/16/2014 06:50 PMPosted by BigBudz
im sorry....we have the option of shutting smart loot off in some way shape or form?

No.

Smart-loot is rolled 85% of the time. So there's a 15% chance you'll get the wrong stat.
09/09/2014 04:24 AMPosted by NyhtFall
Okay. Weird. I farmed RoRGs on my DH and after getting a natural socket, transferred all my non-IDed RoRGs (four of them) to my intelligence chars. My WD identified 2 and my Wiz identified 2.

All four came out with dexterity as the primary stat and not intelligence.

So my experience is consistent with Nevalistis' explanation.

Oh incidentally, if any of you DHs are banging your head on the wall because you can't get a socket, CC or CD to roll on your RoRGs (puts on the tinfoil hat), try opening a few with your monk.

That's not what anyone is talking about. It's common knowledge that legendaries are smart looted to whoever it dropped for not who identifies it. This thread was about opening caches.
Not sure why this is even being debated. The only thing binding to a Cache is the level and difficulty earned on. You can farm for them all day on your DH and open all day on your Wizard to get Intelligence rings. Intended or not, it is how it is.
people all quote nevalistis in saying that cache contents are predetermined (ie: you get a rorg, or a nats ring) as soon as you obtain it from tyrael.

I assert that nevalistis is wrong, and simply to stop the spread of misinformation
I have a question on the "Horadric Cache" items themselves, I have received several of these items, yet when I click on them, nothing happens. Have they already been emptied, or is there something special needed to open this item? Once they are emptied why would the shell still be available? Is it valuable for some later build/project?
09/21/2014 07:01 PMPosted by MSGGrumpy
I have a question on the "Horadric Cache" items themselves, I have received several of these items, yet when I click on them, nothing happens. Have they already been emptied, or is there something special needed to open this item? Once they are emptied why would the shell still be available? Is it valuable for some later build/project?


What? You "right click" the Horadric Cache in your character inventory, then loot should fall on the floor.
left click picks up the item, a right click moves it to the inventory, or if it is in the inventory a right click will move it to the character stash...I've never seen anything drop from these and still wonder if there is treasure in there????
You need to right click on it, but do not have the stash open. If you only have your inventory open (right side of screen, not left) and you right click the cache it will puke out a bunch of worthless stuff (never what you are looking for, it knows) onto the ground just like a chest.
Thanks, thought I had already done this, but guess I had not because ....surprise surprise lookie at the loot! Thanks again.

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