Math: Shield Bash with every rune at once STILL awful

General Discussion
A number of people have complained about shield bash in the past. I'm glad Blizzard noticed that it was extremely weak before and buffed it in the recent patch, but the patch unfortunately only solved half the problem. It's not just that shield bash didn't do enough damage to single targets. It doesn't do damage reliably to multiple targets ever.

Take a gander at Fist of Heaven - Divine Well, a holy skill like shield bash. 340% damage immediately, then 340% damage to most targets in a significant area (let's say 20 years consistently, then diminishing odds of hitting something after that), plus about 8 sparks shooting lightning out multiple times for 80% damage each.

Suppose you have an average elite pack of 4 monsters approaching you. For purposes of this math, we're going to pretend they are ordinary melee monsters with no affixes or strange behavior. They just hit you normally.

One cast of fist of heaven - divine well hits all of them for 340 x 4 or 1360% total damage. Of the bolts of light that shoot out, lets say an average of 4 of them get their damage in for 2 seconds. That's 80 x 4 x 2 or 640% damage. That's 2000% weapon damage among enemies from a single cast.

Now, suppose we had special gear that made Shield Bash benefit from every rune.. Same situation.

Supposing you spec for it by having punish as your primary, the passive that helps block chance, and a decent shield + helm of rule, we'll say you consistently have a block chance of 65%.

We're also going to live in magical Christmas land where there is no chance of missing with shield bash because of a monster taking one step away. We'll say this is simulating a bug/pathfinding fix in the future.

Runes:

Pound is the most obvious. Your primary target is going to take 1065% damage accounting for your block chance.

Unless you position your enemies perfectly, you don't benefit from shattered shield most of the time. We'll say one monster that wouldn't have otherwise been hit is going to be hit here. 598% damage.

The one on one rune immobilizes your primary target. It's a good thing you aren't a melee class or this would be completely worthless.

Your other two enemies will be affected by Shield Cross, doing 135+65 or 200% damage to each. That's 400% total.

Finally, we have the crumble rune. There's a chance that you will deal another 600% weapon damage to enemies behind one that is killed. On a reasonably challenging difficulty, this will occur after 6-ish hits of the primary target (with pound). That averages to +100% weapon damage. But it actually has to hit something. We'll generously say the chance of hitting something behind it is 50% (it isn't). That's 50% average damage bonus from crumble.

Fist of Heaven score: 2000%
Ultra Shield Bash score: 1065+598+400+50 = 2113%

In a typical combat scenario, a shield bash with EVERY RUNE benefiting from awesome gear like Helm of Rule just barely outperforms a basic Fist of Heaven - Divine Well with no special gear bonuses.

Let me address some complaints in advance, while simulating the average tone of a bnet forum user:

But crumble is much better in a situation where there are lots of little enemies present, and that will happen often! You smell like farts!

You know what else is much better in a situation with lots of little enemies present? Fist of Heaven.

By your own admission, pound still does more single target damage than fist of heaven! Your analysis sucks and so do you!

Sure. So if the way you play the game is warping straight to bosses with no spawns and fighting them over and over, pound is great. Otherwise you need to be able to hit more than one target, which means spending another skill slot.

But what about (insert obscure combat scenario here!? 2nd grade kids could think this through more than you, jerkwad!

Part of a good build is being prepared for many different kinds of enemies. While an ultimate shield bash might outperform fist of heaven in some obscure scenario, it would still be worse overall and slow you down.

Your math makes too many assumptions! It's worthless! Nice "homeschooling," loser, huehuehuehuehuehuehue

I deliberately chose the most basic scenario against a pack of 4 elites with no special abilities (e.g. they don't dodge your shield charge) because it is MOST beneficial to the math of shield bash. My assumptions were based on a scenario where shield bash should be blowing other skills out of the water, and it still hardly performed better at all.

What about Piro Marella!? It halves the resource cost of shield bash! Put that into your lame little pipe and smoke it, buttface!

Okay, you got me. If you have Piro Marella, a magical shield bash that benefited from every rune and never missed might be more efficient assuming you don't have extra wrath regen.
In a group with lots of pull mobs to X location skills, my friend was able to work a Condemn+Shield Bash build to semi-decent functionality.

That's mainly because he REALLY wants to have a Shield Bash build that doesn't blow. So yeah... Just get three other people to lock everything in place for you so you can live your dream. You know, before realizing Shield Bash costs way too much Wrath even after reducing it by half and that you should just go back to throwing shields everywhere while waiting for that Condemn cooldown.

+1, jerkwad.
I hope shield bash and falling sword become good one day
Crusader spells are so clunky right now it's ridiculous. Against enemies right on top of you, Shield Bash and a couple of other moves won't even hit the target. Then there's Blessed Shield. BS against moving enemies = majority of bounces miss. Then there is Heavens Fury, that will occasionally chase some random mob off screen after it kills the original target. The whole class needs reprogramming.
In my opinion, It is quite easy to fix Shield Bash. It should based on your block AMOUNT...instead of chance. EZPZ done.
the solution to all of this is obvious

nerf FoH > divine well, of course.
04/17/2014 04:54 PMPosted by Skyfire
the solution to all of this is obvious

nerf FoH > divine well, of course.


LOL! Sad but true.

In all seriousness though, Shield bash should always hit the thing you're clicking on. I don't understand how it misses most the time. No other skill feels this gimmicky
All skills would be fine if this class had resource management similar to other classes. When will the wrath generation issue be fixed and where is the you gain wrath on block passiv skill?
Shield Bash was my least favorite of all the secondary skills on Crusader. After I finished leveling and tried all the runes I gave up on the skill. It's hard to use efficiently, and it's still weak even when you do. My experience agrees with TC's math.
04/17/2014 04:54 PMPosted by Skyfire
the solution to all of this is obvious

nerf FoH > divine well, of course.


lmao. You almost make coke come out of my nose. Thank you.

But seriously. This is what blizzards solution will be. A bug fix for FoH.
Just remove crusaders from the game already. It makes me sad to see a terrible paladin class. :(
Hallowed Bulwark (the legendary shield that gives 45-60% more Block with Iron Skin) could give you even more damage.

OH WAIT BLOCK IS CAPPED AT 75%.

heuhuehueuhe
+1, OP. I'm playing Crusader, using Shield Bash, and even though I enjoy the class it's painfully obvious that Shield Bash is not where it needs to be right now, in terms of utility or damage output.
04/17/2014 05:10 PMPosted by CrimsonCuro
Just remove crusaders from the game already. It makes me sad to see a terrible paladin class. :(


Crusaders are a million times more fun than Paladin ever was.

They are no paladin.
04/17/2014 04:54 PMPosted by Ubern00bz
In my opinion, It is quite easy to fix Shield Bash. It should based on your block AMOUNT...instead of chance. EZPZ done.


The wording on the ability is weird, but it adds your block chance to the percentage of damage done. So let's say you have a shield with 25% block chance, Shield Bash does [370+(3*25)]%, or 445% damage.
04/17/2014 05:17 PMPosted by Daemon
Hallowed Bulwark (the legendary shield that gives 45-60% more Block with Iron Skin) could give you even more damage.

OH WAIT BLOCK IS CAPPED AT 75%.

heuhuehueuhe


Bulwark increases your block amount, not chance. And this cap is for gear block, if you have 75% block from gear alone and use say, punish, you'll be at 90%.
Another idiot having a big long wall-of-text conversation with himself. Wonderful. No way am I going to read that, and I will continue to disagree fully with what he is saying. It reminds me of the Paladin's charge from diablo 2.
It adds X% of your -shield- block chance. So if it's 12% to block on your offhand, thats the damage bonus.

It doesn't matter if you have 75% total block on your char sheet.
Is it just me or does shield bash seem to just randomly miss targets that should be getting hit by it?
04/17/2014 06:37 PMPosted by Yura
Is it just me or does shield bash seem to just randomly miss targets that should be getting hit by it?


There some kind of funky delay between when the Crusader stops charging (when it should hit its target) and when the effect of the shield bash firing forward goes off.

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