Understanding my views pertaining to DH.

Demon Hunter
05/08/2014 03:05 PMPosted by Slay
When a new client comes in with a predetermined design in mind (like a Diablo fan wanting to buy the next new Diablo game) I don't tell them that their design isn't how "I" expect their future home to be laid out. I design their future home (aka game) to fit their expectations, not mine.


Hence why Architects today are generally prostitutes to their clients.
(I only say this because we are in the same profession, not to insult. :P)

However, this isn't always the case. Many homes and buildings today transform how we live, as seen by the Architect, not the end user.

We both applaud the well mannered wall, but Diablo 3 has created a space that has never existed... there is no alternative to Diablo 3 hence why we still play. Blizzard isn't finished supporting their game and creating their wonder.
glad I swallowed my post about what to expect and what to gear for

lol

I'm waiting for the "buff" that may come after all the ignorance got to the devs

i can s e e it coming...

when will i get my items to make the build I wanted to play in RoS...

a build like this...

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#QahiPl!SbTR!YcZZca

ps. the generator is a decoy
Hello Mr DiEoxidE.

I'm a person who picks up a DH ever so often when the mood comes to me. I'm a person who in the passing years has found a certain fondness of playing a diverse swell of playstyles found in different games just to get a feel for the overall picture.

I won't say I know all the ends and outs of the DH, heck I may not know all of the basics. I know about stutter step (Played a Hunter in the old days of WoW when that was a thing), CC usage, resource management, and still working on understanding which Defensive is best given certain build types. However, I'm not sure I understand the HA discussion fully so forgive me as I'm lost there though it sounds like an interesting topic to look up on or discuss if you are ever wanting. I also don't see why the instant Bola explosion quiver is bad design. Is it due to the fact that you can bypass the downside of the Imminent rune? I like Bola for the AoE damage, but the waiting for it to explode lots of times frustrates me so I may be biased on that topic all the same.

All that being said, I do see a glaring issue with DH as a whole and it does have to do with it's playstyle. It's very linear. You are pretty much pigeon holed into this one archetype. The guy that stands from a distance and shoots a bow. Even with the idea of Hand Crossbows and as much Jon Wu Style Blizzard tries to put into the class, it can not escape this standard. Is it a bad thing? Yes and no.

Games like Diablo, Torchlight, PoE and others are games that have prided themselves not only on the epic conquest for loot, but character build diversity. Currently in the D3 game, there isn't much of that outside of the Barbarian. They are probably the most diverse class in the game with the ability to change from the melee bruiser to the ranged ballista, to the summoning badass. Yet you look at the DH and no matter how you color it, you are held in this one archetype.

Personally I feel the DH in practice is fine. It has a nice mix of skill and situational awareness combined with the potential output of it that makes it a good class. However, because it is so one sided in its design, I don't think there is much reason to invest the time into it for that reason. If more skill options were given to add some actual diversity in your build/playstyle, then I could see the DH being closer to perfect.

Also, your analogy with the round hole and square peg is a bit off when I look at the DH. It's more like Blizzard is giving DH a board with just a Round Hole. Why can't they add in a Square hole and a Triangle hole for DH to make use of the other Pegs that are available?
Did not actually read past first sentence until I go a snapshot of the "Challenge accepted" part.

Dude, just three words:

Learn to listen!

PS.

Nice analogy on the construction worker though. Although you forgot to mention in your version of the story that there was an intolerant Foreman (who was not even part of the project) who handed the instructions to the construction worker along with the blueprint.
@Slay

There's only one way for a developer to create a character class, and that is to make it the way he wants ot to be.

The same is true of the artist. He doesn't sit down at the canvas and think, "hmm, what would peolple like to see." Rather, the artist starts painting and the picture slowly starts revealing itself. Sometimes he doesn't even know how it will turn out. He merely uncovers the painting hidden beneath the canvas.

These devs can't design a class for you or me or anyone. They create a class concept and build a design it that's intesting to them. Sure, they ask their peers for input etc.; but in the end, class is still a piece of art created by the developer, the architect, if you will. Therefore, players who want understand the DH class, need to try and climb into the head of its creator. If they don't, they will only frustrate themselves.

How silly would it be for someone to say, "The Michelangelo should have painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel this or that way."
Interesting thread.

Btw, I actually agree with Slay.

This IS supposed to be an RPG, after all.

Also, while Blizzard err Wyatt, mentions that the DH is supposed to be skill based class, and we have many options in our toolbag to give us massive control... There are a plethora of things within this game, baked into the foundation, that does nothing but punch us in the face when we try to follow through with that notion. I feel like Wyatt and many of the devs are just all talk, because they continue to either contradict themselves based on what they say, or every design choice they make becomes irony with results being straight up what they were trying to "fix" and/or "prevent" in the first place.

example: They say the DH will truly shine in the hands of a skilled player, while at the same time giving the class an RNG based main stat, and having our gear hold our character's identity and potency.
05/08/2014 04:04 PMPosted by RedCell
@Slay

There's only one way for a developer to create a character class, and that is to make it the way he wants ot to be.

The same is true of the artist. He doesn't sit down at the canvas and think, "hmm, what would peolple like to see." Rather, the artist starts painting and the picture slowly starts revealing itself. Sometimes he doesn't even know how it will turn out. He merely uncovers the painting hidden beneath the canvas.

These devs can't design a class for you or me or anyone. They create a class concept and build a design it that's intesting to them. Sure, they ask their peers for input etc.; but in the end, class is still a piece of art created by the developer, the architect, if you will. Therefore, players who want understand the DH class, need to try and climb into the head of its creator. If they don't, they will only frustrate themselves.

How silly would it be for someone to say, "The Michelangelo should have painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel this or that way."


RedCell, I understand where you're coming from when you say this. However, you have to understand that once the painting is painted, or the sculpture is sculpted, it's up to the audience to interpret it in any way they want to or see fit. Blizzard doesn't leave it alone, instead they keep snatching away whatever the player comes up with when it comes to their way of playing the class. Some things are within reason, when it makes the game degenerate, such as Life Steal.

The best games lay the ground work, and the players express and entertain themselves through it. This game completely locks the player down, all the way to the "always online" requirement.
While, all of us in this thread have some general agreement on DH play, we do have our own personal interpretation. Even if all of us in TPA share similar philosophies when it comes to this game and the class, we have our own personal differences - as we're all different people and players.

The problem is that Blizzard attempts to try and take control of even that.

This isn't some other type of game, where rigidness is necessary for how all of the inner workings of the game bounce off of each other(like Tournament games and other actual competitive games, or even guild driven games). This an Action Role-playing Game. Whatever someone else's fantasy and interpretation of the DH is, they should be able to achieve that.

That's also the thing isn't it? There's lore for all of the classes, and each and every player playing the game has their own personal interpretation of it. The same as we all have our own interpretation of Fun.
I only play hc and am enjoying my dh in t3, but maybe some of the better dh's that play high torment can answer me this?

If a skilled demon hunter with some of the best gear and a good mix of dps and survivabilty runs t5-t6 are there still occasions where he dies in situations that can't reasonably be avoided? Or does the dh have to trade so much dps for survivability (skillwise and or gearwise) that the general consensus is that it isn't fun to play anymore in a team with other characters because most of the dh players would feel kind of useless in such team.

Isn't something like this question the only thing that needs to be answered to get a general consensus about there being a classproblem or not?
DiE is one of the most humble people I've had the pleasure of speaking to in regards to Diablo, he has valid points provided in the OP. Those struggling with surviving in higher torments should absorb what he has to say.
05/08/2014 01:19 PMPosted by DiEoxidE
I'm aware that sometimes speaking the truth can potentially hurt feelings


I love where you're coming from. With the cookie-cutter CA build under my belt, I am experimenting more now than I have in awhile with with ROS DHs. The class is incredibly versatile and I'm looking forward to tackling HC Torment 4+.

But I think the other poster does have a point about your rhetorical style. It's not about "hurt feelings." It's about you potentially alienating the very audience you are trying to court. If you want to persuade a particular audience, you have to give them reason to read on and care/inspire them. Rather than hurting feelings, it's about driving someone away before they are even close to recognizing your message.
Hi, in Vanilla I was a tank dh and loving it. Then a new patch came and it forced me to do something else like jagged strafe. Then another patch and I had to use bombardment to play MP10 then no shadow power in another patch....

Enjoy the game as it will change. Constant change in the game will happen with patches. Some will not be good for you while some will. Now, with no AH, your gear or lack there of, along with patches, it will require significant adaptations. These adaptations are changes Blizz makes to keep the game fresh and perhaps to keep people playing their games.

Where the rub is, as I see it, is what will be in the patch and how do the forums play into this.

Currently I am enjoying T4-T6 and it is very enjoyable, challenging, and rewarding.

I fear that unsustainable dps burst dh builds are patched with defensive buffs that can now run at the highest levels. This would affect my current build but I know I would adapt and find enjoyment as I have since 1.0.4.

Maybe with such a defensive buff that many people believe is needed with DH, that a dh tank build will be alive again soon. I am up for the cycle to repeat.
05/08/2014 01:39 PMPosted by Merlin
To me it's pretty simple. You have two options as a DH.

Learn to play and do T6.

Be lazy and faceroll T2-T4.

Just don't try to do both, ie be lazy and do T6. It won't work.


This is EXACTLY right.
05/08/2014 03:44 PMPosted by DarkGrif
Hello Mr DiEoxidE.

I'm a person who picks up a DH ever so often when the mood comes to me. I'm a person who in the passing years has found a certain fondness of playing a diverse swell of playstyles found in different games just to get a feel for the overall picture.

I won't say I know all the ends and outs of the DH, heck I may not know all of the basics. I know about stutter step (Played a Hunter in the old days of WoW when that was a thing), CC usage, resource management, and still working on understanding which Defensive is best given certain build types. However, I'm not sure I understand the HA discussion fully so forgive me as I'm lost there though it sounds like an interesting topic to look up on or discuss if you are ever wanting. I also don't see why the instant Bola explosion quiver is bad design. Is it due to the fact that you can bypass the downside of the Imminent rune? I like Bola for the AoE damage, but the waiting for it to explode lots of times frustrates me so I may be biased on that topic all the same.

All that being said, I do see a glaring issue with DH as a whole and it does have to do with it's playstyle. It's very linear. You are pretty much pigeon holed into this one archetype. The guy that stands from a distance and shoots a bow. Even with the idea of Hand Crossbows and as much Jon Wu Style Blizzard tries to put into the class, it can not escape this standard. Is it a bad thing? Yes and no.

Games like Diablo, Torchlight, PoE and others are games that have prided themselves not only on the epic conquest for loot, but character build diversity. Currently in the D3 game, there isn't much of that outside of the Barbarian. They are probably the most diverse class in the game with the ability to change from the melee bruiser to the ranged ballista, to the summoning badass. Yet you look at the DH and no matter how you color it, you are held in this one archetype.

Personally I feel the DH in practice is fine. It has a nice mix of skill and situational awareness combined with the potential output of it that makes it a good class. However, because it is so one sided in its design, I don't think there is much reason to invest the time into it for that reason. If more skill options were given to add some actual diversity in your build/playstyle, then I could see the DH being closer to perfect.

Also, your analogy with the round hole and square peg is a bit off when I look at the DH. It's more like Blizzard is giving DH a board with just a Round Hole. Why can't they add in a Square hole and a Triangle hole for DH to make use of the other Pegs that are available?


Hey! Thanks for the response. I think the issues you bring up are more so game design problems rather than "class" issues, and as such, I can understand where you're coming from.

I will say a few things though in response. I do not feel we are as limited as it may seem at the moment. There may very well be S&B DH's throwing grenades, bolas, knives etc, or DH's face tanking content that are out there, but are not known. The DH forums is a relatively small part of what's going on with the class.

Another thing is that there are players (that I will not say their names) that could very well post their builds/approaches that could change the way a lot of players view the class, but they also feel like us as a community will not accept it with open arms because of the simple minded nature of the forums. Unfortunately it's partly why we don't have as many "options" floating around the community, because it generally shuns out creatively rather than embracing it by stating "T6 videos or it's not valid" or "What, no CA? Scrub player". This issue is amplified by the very thing I stated in the OP.

I'm rambling now, but I hope you get what I'm stating. Cheers!
05/08/2014 03:50 PMPosted by Primus
Did not actually read past first sentence until I go a snapshot of the "Challenge accepted" part.

Dude, just three words:

Learn to listen!

PS.

Nice analogy on the construction worker though. Although you forgot to mention in your version of the story that there was an intolerant Foreman (who was not even part of the project) who handed the instructions to the construction worker along with the blueprint.


Thanks.

05/08/2014 05:57 PMPosted by Mercurial
05/08/2014 01:19 PMPosted by DiEoxidE
I'm aware that sometimes speaking the truth can potentially hurt feelings


I love where you're coming from. With the cookie-cutter CA build under my belt, I am experimenting more now than I have in awhile with with ROS DHs. The class is incredibly versatile and I'm looking forward to tackling HC Torment 4+.

But I think the other poster does have a point about your rhetorical style. It's not about "hurt feelings." It's about you potentially alienating the very audience you are trying to court. If you want to persuade a particular audience, you have to give them reason to read on and care/inspire them. Rather than hurting feelings, it's about driving someone away before they are even close to recognizing your message.


Understood. I'm thinking about using the construction worker example I stated and working that into the OP in place of some other things so that it comes off a bit better. Thanks for the feedback. (>^^)>
@DiE, strongly agree with you. Great posting, even though I somewhat also agree with Daveaujus – the intended audience might brush it off as either elitist or insulting. It has happened before, I remember threads about the state of the DH where people chimed in on the lines of “and then there’s players like DiEoxidE who want the DH to be the underdog class because he has great micro”.

Anyway, I’m in your camp, so to say. Simply because, games-wise, I’m primarily an RPG person. I have a background in tabletop RPG (Call of Cthulhu and AD&D mostly) and have played loads of computer role playing games over the decades (from Wizardry to Might&Magic to Dungeon Master to Ultima to Black Crypt to …). So I’m used to the concept of classes.

Classes are there to give players a choice of how they want to tackle the game. Different classes do it differently, because otherwise, well, why have different classes to begin with? To have a variety of animations and explosions with pretty much the same gameplay? Some RPG don’t have preset classes but let the player develop more or less freely with skill points on level-up. Diablo 3 isn’t one of those games, it defines gameplay via classes.

Frankly, I haven’t had a co-player complain that a Cleric can’t wield edged weapons in classic D&D, or that a Paladin can’t group with chars of an evil alignment, or that a Warlock can’t heal party members efficiently. The rules may be adjustable guidelines while playing tabletop, but in a computer game they are non-negotiable. There is no game master who can relax the rules ad hoc because you really, really want to facetank with your Mage. The game master here is Diablo 3, a bunch of computer code you can’t reason with. Blizzard is much like Wizards of the Coast for AD&D; fundamentally changing class design is a difficult and long process. In the case of AD&D v5, it has taken over two years already – just for the rules, no content.

The Demon Hunter is what it is. You have some leeway in how to play him or her, but the class is defined, including backstory, class-specific items, and the skills set. Not playing the Demon Hunter in a DHish way is feasible, but please don’t expect it to perform nearly as well than a Demon Hunter who concentrates on what his or her class was designed to do best. We have loads of options to experiment inside the confines of our class, but you’ll still have to be aware of the class’s “concept”. And yes, I too have the impression that many DH aren’t aware of it, resulting in threads such as “DH is severely lacking in defense” and its 241 replies.

Hence: Thank you for this thread, DiEoxidE. Much appreciated. Even should only a handful of players “get” what you are trying to say, it served its purpose.
Hi there FaPoxidE~ (>^^)>

Couple of things:

1. You can't change a crowd of people. People are stubborn. You know this. You can't change people so easily. Unless they clearly see that something else outperforms what they are doing, they may take a look. But then if it takes as much effort as climbing a mountain, they will drop it and go back to what they were doing before.

2. Not to insult anyone in the community, but we don't have really good guides to help players with the little things. Managing 2 resources, being 'squishy', and being efficent requires good decision making, much more than other classes. This isn't something easy to aquire by just looking at a guide, but we can always try our best~ <(^^<)
05/09/2014 05:24 AMPosted by VocaloidNyan
1. You can't change a crowd of people. People are stubborn. You know this. You can't change people so easily. Unless they clearly see that something else outperforms what they are doing, they may take a look. But then if it takes as much effort as climbing a mountain, they will drop it and go back to what they were doing before.


DiE, this is a more simply stated version of what I said earlier(second post of thread). Although I 100% agree with your notion and intention, there is no way to inject a meaningful change in class philosophy to a mass number of relatively ignorant people (myself included). Now prepare yourself, because I'm going to quote Men In Black here (haha)- a person is smart, people are dumb.

Getting a mass amount of people to be mindful and actually stop and think about what it is they're doing is probably one of the hardest tasks to accomplish these days. A distracted lot we "gamers" are- using dual monitors with netflix on one screen d3 on the other while texting... and eating.
Dieoxide, I admit that I have not read every post in this thread, so if I deserve to be flamed, so be it. I have a question:

How do your views affect the style of play that a DH must use when in a group? The advice I read for DH all seem to be directed at solo.

In my group, I feel that, despite my superior offensive numbers compared to the others in my group (2 wiz, 2 monk, 1 barb, 1 wd, no other DH) I am in a position of either dying too much or zipping around instead of pounding the enemies. And you can see that I have even made a few equipment decisions for extra defense at the expense of offense to counter this issue to some degree.

On my own, I am very effective even in T4. In a group I am squishy. Is this a DH thing or is there some way I can improve this? Or is it in my head?

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