To those complaining about Ladders...

General Discussion
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04/29/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
Based on the information currently available:

What about seasons makes you want to participate in them?
What concerns you about seasons?
What are some options to address any concerns you may have with seasons?

1. Nothing what-so-ever. I don't even pretend to play Diablo competitively. I don't need to be the "best" but simply jump in - kill hordes of bad guys - and find the occasional upgrade to my current gear.
2. Season only items
3. If you want to introduce season only items during that season - I'm good with that. Add them later to the 'base' game so that those of us that have zero desire in playing seasons don't feel a need to.

I am, however, all for additional 'events' such as a loot hunt - be it by class (shields, bows, one-handed weapons, whatever). Add in some community goals (as a community kill xyz number of treasure goblins over the next 48 hours and for the 48 hours after that their legendary drop rate has been raised 500% for example as they all try to pack up their most precious valuables and flee Sanctuary (so to speak)). Stuff like that will certainly keep people playing and slaying.
1. Season exclusive loot. If there was no season exclusive loot, I don't think I'd play seasons. I don't really have the time to devote another 300 hours that it takes to gear out a character. I still want to try my other 70's that are collecting dust.
2. I don't really WANT to level characters up again, and I'm concerned that I'll spend a good chunk of time playing and then end up not even getting the season-specific loot drop I was looking for.

A. I'd probably be more interested in playing seasons if in-season characters enjoyed a higher EXP growth during leveling, and a significantly boosted legendary drop rate at max level. This is something of catch 22 though, because people will then be saying that their previous characters are obsolete.

B. Make season exclusive items purely cosmetic. This will give bragging rights to those who top the season while ensuring that all players have access to the complete loot table.

C. Be able to transfer your characters freely between season / non season. When moved to the season, their gear and level will be reset to whatever it was the last time it was in the season mode (level 1 naked as default) and have their gear / level switch back when you enter them in normal non-ladder. This would probably address the attachment that myself and quite a few other players have developed to our characters over the hundreds of hours we've spent playing them.

D. Increased legendary drop rate across the board. As it stands, a vast majority of legendaries that drop are salvaged. This is not a permanent solution to this, as every legendary should "feel" powerful and people should be excited to get one. Until that happens, though, at least let us feel like we're wading efficiently through the bad stuff. Playing for an hour and only getting another crappy Wailing Host honestly feels like a waste of time.

Thanks for listening.
04/29/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
There have been a lot recent posts about seasons, and a lot of opinions and concerns about them. We're very happy that so many of you have taken an interest in this upcoming feature, and we're looking forward to sharing more information on them in the future. It’s always awesome to see a great community discussion on a subject like this, so I wanted to drop in and ask a few questions.

Based on the information currently available:

  • What about seasons makes you want to participate in them?
  • What concerns you about seasons?
  • What are some options to address any concerns you may have with seasons?

If seasons have season-exclusive loot, all I ask is that the exclusive loot be added to the drop table of non-season character after the season is done. This would alleviate every concern I have.
I'm not overly interested in ladders purely due my time constraint to level up from the start.

At the moment I farm T5/6 while gaining plenty of exp along the way.

With a ladder you start at 0 again and your exp gain at the start is slow. It will take a while again for a specific character to get to farm T5/6 again.

I'm not to sure if I want to do this over and over again. I like the fact that I've reached a certain level in the game - now that I did, I would rather be looking for challenges at this level.

Why in the world do you not add events in the current non ladder universe to obtain these specific legs to expand on the endgame.

Not sure I will join ladder seasons, but it looks like I WILL be forced to do it, which doesn't seem like a feature at all.

My 2 cents worth.
What about seasons makes you want to participate in them?


What concerns you about seasons?

If it has exclusive loot or not.

What are some options to address any concerns you may have with seasons?

As long as seasons only loot stays on seasons only servers and reset every season I don't care. If it comes to normal servers then I will feel like I'm forced into playing it to 'keep up' and at that point I'll probably quit.
04/29/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
Based on the information currently available:

  • What about seasons makes you want to participate in them?
  • What concerns you about seasons?
  • What are some options to address any concerns you may have with seasons?

Alright I already posted in this topic (post #46), so you might already have my feedback but now that I know someone is watching I would like to be clearer with my feedback.

First of all, many concerns are well-expressed by RaphealVVA's post here:

But he doesn't cover everything! Here is a list of my concerns:
1) What if I do play ladder just to reach some incentive (like an exclusive legendary that is a random drop) only to never find it? I would feel as though I wasted my time. Will I get another shot at the item in the future?
2) How is the competition going to be... well... competitive? Is the competition going to be who can reach the highest Paragon over [X] many months? Competitions are best when they involve skill and don't just revolve around who spent the longest time. I am skeptical D3 ladder will enable competition about skill, and if the competition is not about skill then I am not interested in the competition.
3) I need more character slots because I'm already using all of mine (1 each class in HC and SC).
4) Loss aversion. I have spent a lot of time with my existing characters and I feel a connection with them I don't want to give up, nor feel like I have to give it up in order to keep progressing them. If I make another ladder character for the purpose of advancing my non-ladder character(s), isn't there something wrong with that?
5) Ladder is opposed to Paragon levels. This is a case where there are 2 game elements are they are working in opposition to each other-- Paragon levels incentivize players to keep playing the same characters who can efficiently gather XP, Ladders incentivize players to do the opposite. Everybody has to pick one and abandon the other because the game is at odds with itself on how players are incentivized concerning this topic.

Some options:
1) Community events. Buffs for ladder characters that compensate XP/GP lost leveling new characters would naturally be more common later in the season than early in the season.

2) Exclusives are tied to ladder results instead of random luck. For example:
-Top 10% of players get exclusive legendaries X, Y, Z
-Top 30% of players get exclusive legendaries X, Y
-Top 50% of players get exclusive legendary X

3) Short races. One way to make a ladder about skill is to make sure everyone has the same amount of time. The way to do that is to make the ladder last a very short time, ideally just one play session (<2 hours). Then the ladder is about competition. And it's short enough I don't really have to "give up" my old characters to have a shot at the exclusives; I'm just testing the waters one day with something different.

4) Fundamental change. Make ladder a fundamentally different play experience from non-ladder. Have some completely different rules from standard play. Some examples:
-All monsters have an extra Elite Affix, even if they're not elite
-Trade of Legendary items and gold is unlocked
-A fixed difficulty that the player cannot change, and is slightly different from any existing difficulty.

If ladder is just the same as non-ladder except additional exclusives items, that will be both a disappointment and an affront.
If it's about competition please seperate played hours to couple of range to encourage low hours player participate in. As mentioned by some others the content don't have to be a start from level 1. For example start a new character at lvl 70 without any gear then able to rise difficulty w/o jump out to main menu after getting some upgrade gear. And please don't include the current rift design. About the current rift, there's no official announcement but I felt some improvement, but still, not good enough.
04/29/2014 05:15 PMPosted by WallyWallace
The loot should be available to all types of gameplay: Softcore, Hardcore, and Seasons.

You realise loot is not available to all types of play presently, like torment has only torment items...

Ladders should and will have ladder only items, if they don't, whats the point in playing, seriously a lot of you people are whacked in the head.
1. I would not play seasons. Restarts are not my idea of fun.
2. Season exclusive loot is divisive, and essentially plays out the non ladder casuals. Compelling players to partake in ladder just for the loot is counterproductive to the ideals of fun gameplay. In fact, ladder is unnecessary in D3, which has no economy to speak of. "Free to switch" skills also mean there is no need to re-level to try out new builds.
3. If there must be ladder and its exclusive loot, then there should be alternative ways to obtain the new legendaries for non ladder players. It can either drop in non ladder after season's end, or be in the loot table from alternative game modes e.g. Tiered rifts, infernal portals. No one should be compelled to do ladder if they do not want to.
Playing this game lower than level 70 is EXTREMELY boring once you have already gotten characters to level 70, so unless seasons have some way of addressing this I can't see myself playing them.

Also hate the idea of not playing the characters I've spent hundreds of hours developing.

Ladder only loot is a horrible idea as it would force people to play ladder or fall behind - combined with the above points, I would likely just stop playing all together.

Just my two cents.
04/29/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Grimiku

  • What about seasons makes you want to participate in them?
  • What concerns you about seasons?
  • What are some options to address any concerns you may have with seasons?

1. there needs to be a ladder in the seasons like highest dps, or lvl or first to kill t6 diablo some type of fun aspect where you compete and possibly get in game prizes like season only caches for completing season only events or achievements. Season only legendary items would be great it would give you a reason to play the game even after you have a op char.

2. I am concerned they will just be useless fodder like hey its here you can play but you get no added fun or enjoyment from it.

3. see #1 and 2 just make them have a fun aspect that feels like you dont have to play them, but if you do you will have fun even when the base game has gotten boring, or that you can get some cool stuff to use that you cant get in the base game. I am not saying you have to make op game changing stuff that will make the game useless if you dont get the item in said season, just stuff like new leggy transmogs would be fine that would show that you put the effort into getting them during a season.

3.) Isn't this the job of your developers?

All blizz has to do is do what poe does. Ladder specific legendaries that start dropping non ladder as soon as the ladder season is over. So basically its your choice play ladder or not but if you don't you wait 2 or 3 or w/e months for the new ladder only leg's
04/29/2014 06:23 PMPosted by Wodensfury
04/29/2014 06:16 PMPosted by Abirn
Blizzard: I'm concerned that you will listen to the whiners on the forums. I enjoyed the ladder of diablo 2 and the fresh starts when a season started. I enjoyed the fact that the ladder had ladder only items you had to get during the season in order to have them on your non ladder toons. It's clear that nobody posting in this thread actually played diablo 2 ladder because they all seem to forget that these features were in that game.

I played only ladder in D2. I think its obvious you haven't played D3.

D3 has no need or purpose to spend man hours doing ladders. This game requires no skill, no ability to target gear, no economy, no trading, BOA, RNG and plenty of bots, multiboxers and exp exploits.

Fresh start? Fresh start from what? You can make a new character at any time. If you want a real fresh start, just delete your all your chars and make a new one. (except for paragon.) There are no rune words or charms or anything currently worth having ladder only. Ladder absolutely serves no purpose whatsoever for D3. Unless getting your name on leaderboard is that important to you. Good luck competing again the bots, RNG and the D3 dev team.

The only "benefit" he has going to his persistent jabber is a lack of evidence in the form of an official D2 forum to serve as a springboard for people who disliked certain aspects of D2 when it was fresh and being updated regularly. Absence of evidence, however, is not evidence of absence.

As someone who fits into the so-called "everybody" demographic at that time, I disliked the exclusives, I disliked the resets, I disliked the fake competition, and I certainly disliked the exploit-laden economy and the abomination that was D2 PvP. The ability to try out a new build was also not something locked solely to ladders. You could've done it at any time and eventually without leveling a new character with the advent of skill resets.

This isn't at all me saying D3 isn't without flaw. I can certainly list a few. I am not, however, interested in adding to that list of flaws just to placate the egos of a vocal few. And for that, I won't claim to be everybody, but I will claim I am not alone.
A) I might be persuaded to participate as long as the setup was right insofar as it would not disrupt developing my other characters long term.

B) What will and will not rollover at the end of the season is my main concern.

C) I'd like to see not just items roll over to "normal" mode at the end of the season but also XP and gold gained.
04/29/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
  • What concerns you about seasons?
  • What are some options to address any concerns you may have with seasons?

  • Well, the only thing I'd be concerned about is not enough room for new characters to do the seasons. Will there be additional character slots added/available for season characters, or is it 'use what you have only'?
    04/29/2014 05:13 PMPosted by MikeHoncho
    Figure out something better. Your current drop system is borked. The rewards are terrible. Having to start over and over under current conditions will be brutal.

    ...says rewards are terrible.
    ...has Paragon 432 characters
    ...has 3 piece Zuni, Tasker & Theo, Jeram, and Royal Ring.

    Yeah. It's TERRIBLE! SO TERRIBLE that you have nearly BiS in slots. HORRIBLE that Blizzard afflicts that malady upon you.

    Why is "starting over" forced upon you? Because you want BiS after ladder is released immediately? RoS has been out A MONTH and you've literally got most items WDs have been looking for. OH NOES! GOTTA INVEST ANOTHER MONTH TO GAIN GEAR.

    ...or are you worried that certain exploits/chest farming have been fixed, and won't be available for easier gearing after Ladder release?
    I've mentioned this in other threads but I think it solves all the concerns without hurting the benefits.

    Have relatively short seasons. And more importantly, have sizable durations between seasons. Periods of time where no ladder activity is happening. This makes non-ladder more important than if seasons were ran back to back. It gives ladder players a chance to test out their new toys on their old favorite characters.

    To supplement this the mystic will need to have an ability she should have anyway. The ability to directly convert the mainstat on items to another mainstat of our choosing, no rng, sizable cost if you feel its necessary. Just straight up convert 325 Dex into 325 Str without affecting the enchanting lock on the item.
    Cybergoat you should have at least offered him some ointment with that post.. lol.
    the fact that it will make my main useless, is my main concern. legendaries being account bound is another major issue i have

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