A Game of Thorns

General Discussion
Prev 1 23 24 25
PTR UPDATE

Bad news for Stop Time builds:
    Laws of Hope
  • Active effect duration increased from 3 to 5 seconds
  • Skill Rune - Stop Time
    Has been removed
  • Replaced with:Promise of Faith - Empowering the Law also reduces non-physical damage taken by 25%
  • I guess they didn't want the perma-invincibility builds =P


Item Changes:
    Bastions of Will
  • (2) Set Bonus Has been redesigned
  • After casting a resource-generating attack or primary skill, gain 50% increased damage for 5 seconds
  • After casting a resource-spending attack, gain 50% increased damage for 5 seconds
  • Schaefer's Hammer (For the lightning hybrids out there)
  • Has been redesigned
  • Casting a Lightning skill charges you with Lightning, causing you to deal 650-850% weapon damage as Lightning every second for 5 seconds to nearby enemies
  • Oculus Ring
  • Legendary power added - Chance to create an area of focused power on killing a monster. Damage is increased by 35-40% while standing in the area


Also new items:
    New Legendary Gems
    Bane of the Stricken
  • Each attack you make against an enemy increases the damage it takes from your attacks by 10% weapon damage
  • The additional weapon damage taken is increased by 1% per rank
  • At rank 25 allied players, followers, and pets also benefit from this effect
  • Mutilation Guard
  • Gain 10% melee damage reduction
  • Melee damage reduction is increased by 1% [b](It's 0.5 on PTR)[\b] per rank
  • At rank 25 while below 50% life, you may move through enemies unhindered
03/10/2015 06:35 PMPosted by MightyMidgit
Item Changes:Bastions of Will (2) Set Bonus Has been redesigned After casting a resource-generating attack or primary skill, gain 50% increased damage for 5 seconds After casting a resource-spending attack, gain 50% increased damage for 5 seconds


03/10/2015 06:35 PMPosted by MightyMidgit
Also new items: New Legendary GemsBane of the Stricken Each attack you make against an enemy increases the damage it takes from your attacks by 10% weapon damage The additional weapon damage taken is increased by 1% per rank At rank 25 allied players, followers, and pets also benefit from this effect


Thanks again for posting Mightymidgit,

Those two are of particular interest to me for a no set,no BIS Crusader build I've been toying with.I may do away with my no set and BIS rule and employ that set and gem (swapping Bane of the Powerfull) and refit with a Furnace (to pump elite damage up again).

I'd lose the 200% uptime on phalanx,but I think alternating both Phalanx and Falling Sword/rise Brothers should suffice with up time of meat shields.

Or I could just swap the BotP gem for that one and stick with the no BIS weapon/no set theme and that's probably more likely as I get all OCD about sticking to themes. lol

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Temper-6649/hero/47714810

PS: Will be revisting Thorns after I'm done with this build

=)
Ok, got a quick look at the new PTR patch.

The new Bastion of Will has good and bad things about it. You can still get the 100% bonus, but you need to be using primary skills and resource spending skills every 5 seconds. Cooldown skills do not count for the upkeep unless they spend resource (they still get the damage buff though). This means that you can keep the 100% bonus even when you don't have maxed resource, but it plays a lot more hectic, and you need to be able to manage your resources to cast spenders.

The Blizcon Ring has lost cold and gained Physical for Saders. The damage boost is nice, but for 5 seconds every 25 seconds, the overall damage upkeep is less than that of Bastion of Will and if you miss your window, you have to wait another 20 seconds for it to return. If you can manage the rhythm, it is quite powerful.

I wanted to test out Bane of the Stricken to see if thorns apply as an attack that ups the debuff, but the gem is not dropping yet apparently...

Mutilation Guard is looking to be a good defensive gem though, but being melee reduction alone, there are other ways for damage mitigation, and the gem slot might be better used with a different gem. Also, the Patch notes are wrong. The melee damage mitigation goes up by 0.5 per rank.
03/10/2015 06:35 PMPosted by MightyMidgit
Bane of the Stricken

Each attack you make against an enemy increases the damage it takes from your attacks by 10% weapon damage
The additional weapon damage taken is increased by 1% (It's 0.5 on PTR) per rank
At rank 25 allied players, followers, and pets also benefit from this effect


So, lets say a weapon has a damage range of 1500-2000.
At rank 25, how much %damage will this benefit a party?

My calculations have to be wrong, because the number i came up with just seems to good to be true. Hence i´m doing something wrong. And with my ineptitude for math, it´s more than likely the case.
So, can someone be kind enough to do the correct math?
03/11/2015 07:51 AMPosted by Mentat
Bane of the Stricken

Each attack you make against an enemy increases the damage it takes from your attacks by 10% weapon damage
The additional weapon damage taken is increased by 1% (It's 0.5 on PTR) per rank
At rank 25 allied players, followers, and pets also benefit from this effect


So, lets say a weapon has a damage range of 1500-2000.
At rank 25, how much %damage will this benefit a party?

My calculations have to be wrong, because the number i came up with just seems to good to be true. Hence i´m doing something wrong. And with my ineptitude for math, it´s more than likely the case.
So, can someone be kind enough to do the correct math?


Until it drops in PTR, there is not much we can say about it. From the description, it seems like an enemy debuff, not a direct increase in your damage. The main question I have is if the damage increase is always the 10+% or if it stacks with each hit (additionally or multiplicatively). The description can be interpreted either way.

Case1: You deal 10mill damage per attack. The debuff is a constant, non-stacking debuff of 25%. Enemies would take 12.5mill damage after the initial attack and from then on.
10mill -> 12.5mill -> 12.5mill -> 12.5mill ->... and on...

Case2: You deal 10mill damage per attack. The debuff is a stackable 25% debuff. Enemies would take 12.5 damage after the first attack, and the damage increases by 2.5mill on that enemy for each attack.
10mill -> 12.5mill -> 15mill -> 17.5mill -> 20mill ->... and on...

Case3: You deal 10mill damage per attack. The debuff is a multiplicative 25% debuff. Enemies would take 12.5 damage after the first attack, and the damage increases by 25% for each consecutive attack.
10mill -> 12.5mill -> 15.63mill -> 19.5mill -> 24.4mill ->... and on...

As for ally and pet inclusion, I would assume it just means they can also apply the debuff to enemies even though they don't have the gem. This would be good for coordinating teams so that the other members could use a slot for something else.
My initial reaction to this was... Toxin will no longer be one of the go to gems for a 4 man party.
Albeit i may be wrong in that assumption.
Guess we will have to wait for it to be on PTR so it can be tested.
03/10/2015 10:24 AMPosted by BDF
03/10/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Raspbuten
How much damage would be required by Hack procs to make these builds possible for group or solo GR progression?


Well if you completely ignore crusaders and their thorn's specific skills, you would need Hack to change from 100% to around 400,000%.


While I can appreciate the tongue-in-cheek a 30M AE from Sanguinary suggests that if it was a mere 1000% that it might be acceptable.

I think one of the more important changes to Hack would be that it doesn't result in less damage than your thorns potential, and minimally it should double it.

03/11/2015 09:20 AMPosted by Mentat
My initial reaction to this was... Toxin will no longer be one of the go to gems for a 4 man party.
Albeit i may be wrong in that assumption.
Guess we will have to wait for it to be on PTR so it can be tested.


That was exactly my reaction as well.

It's so difficult to get excited about the patch as it is in so much flux. The sweeping changes (even changing item types like IK pants to bracer) is just far too much change for me to get comfortable with anything.
It seems that Bane of the Stricken will not be included in PTR anymore. The concept was dropped without anyone even getting a chance to test it. I'm trying to find official confirmation, but that's the word on the street at least...
Any word on the Occulus new effect affecting thorns damage?
03/17/2015 11:47 AMPosted by Raspbuten
Any word on the Occulus new effect affecting thorns damage?


Never found the ring on PTR during the 2k%leg buff. The buff ended last night, so I'm not planning on grinding with normal drop rates to find it. Wish I could have gotten it though...
03/11/2015 11:16 AMPosted by Raspbuten
03/10/2015 10:24 AMPosted by BDF
...

Well if you completely ignore crusaders and their thorn's specific skills, you would need Hack to change from 100% to around 400,000%.


While I can appreciate the tongue-in-cheek a 30M AE from Sanguinary suggests that if it was a mere 1000% that it might be acceptable.

I think one of the more important changes to Hack would be that it


Was not tongue in cheek whatsoever.

To be competitive with dps when very well geared you need to be dealing ~10billion dps. If we assume that group buffs roughly double the damage you can output (would likely be less because thorns is weird) that would require you to deal ~5billion dps solo.

My not even perfectly geared thorns wizard has 838,011 thorns damage every time he is hit (35,524thorns, 9336intel).

At 1.5 APS, with a proc coeff of 1, and a 100% hack I would be dealing , 1.257mil dps. I would need to increase that by 4000x to get to 5 bil dps.

4000x 100% = 400,000% to be listed on hack.
My post was in regards to the potential of a 30M Sanguinary Bracers hit, stacking Physical as well as using the Iron Maiden passive.

Since Wizards don't have access to the passive, lets assume you've stacked Physical although it's an odd choice, even at half-strength that is 15M in an area around you, every time you're hit.

Since it is listed at 1000%, and 10,000% would result in 150M and 100,000% resulting in 1.5B, a 6B return on every Hack hit (the equivalent of 400,000%), which could potentially be in the dozens "per second" with electrocute seems to be a bit high.

I apologize for assuming it was a joke.
03/20/2015 11:06 AMPosted by Raspbuten
which could potentially be in the dozens "per second" with electrocute seems to be a bit high.


Hack scales with proc coefficients of the skill you use to trigger them.

The only wizard skill that could get the full damage on every hit would be magic missle: no rune. Every other attack, including electrocute, will be doing a fraction of that.
PTR UPDATE

Bastion of will has a minor change that says the spender needs to hit an enemy before you get the 50% bonus.

In-geom is redesigned to give a 8-10 second cooldown reduction for 15 seconds after an elite kill. The question here is if the cooldown applies to skills already on cooldown or skills cast after. If after, skills with long cooldowns used in the battle with the elite may not even be usable again to gain the reduced cooldown before the 15 seconds is up. I will need to test this.

Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac gets the same treatment as Bastion of will. The cooldown doesn't proc unless the resource spender hits an enemy.
03/20/2015 11:13 AMPosted by BDF
03/20/2015 11:06 AMPosted by Raspbuten
which could potentially be in the dozens "per second" with electrocute seems to be a bit high.


Hack scales with proc coefficients of the skill you use to trigger them.

The only wizard skill that could get the full damage on every hit would be magic missle: no rune. Every other attack, including electrocute, will be doing a fraction of that.


Fair point. Abolishing the proc scalar modifier on Hack should also be in order, functioning similar to the Shard of Hate would be ideal.
Ok, a little update on the new In-Geom design.

The 8-10 second cooldown seems to apply to both skills on cooldown (taking off the seconds from the time) and those cast while while the cooldown reduction in effect, which is good.

Personally, I don't care too much for the change. Having a 4 second cooldown reduction at all times was better than an 8 second reduction only when an elite is killed. The 8 second cooldown allows me to pop RS again immediately after I killed an elite, but by then I killed everything and have to move onto the next set of enemies. In elite scarce maps, this bonus is practically worthless. This makes In-Geom no longer a must have for me, but it would be useful in elite heave rifts.
Welcome to 2.2!

I pulled the old dusty thorns gear out of the bank and played with some of the new itemization.

Blocking with Akarats Awakening is now far too slow to reduce Iron Skin cooldown. Roland's 2-piece is where it's at. Further, attacks per second with sweep attack is really the thing that eliminates your timer, probably better than raw CDR. Using near 50% CDR with Invoker2, Demon2, Leorics crown(45k total) and 2 piece Roland, I was hitting around 80M crits with Iron Skin fairly consistently. The new Laws of Hope (perma) put me around 40M toughness and in t6 I was near invinceable, albeit slow. I really am enjoying how 2,2 now gives you a real game of balancing IAS vs CDR vs RCR, and you're not bound to Akarats Champion.

With this build I was able to use Vo'Toyias and even Hack for a time (but again, the wrath cost of Sweep made it less than ideal, and the ias didnt outweigh the benefit of using Golden Flense).

I think some modifications in the way of an ORotZ for even more potential for perma Iron Skin is in the works, plus upgrading to Ancient Thorns gear.

With the toughness upgrades available by way of gems and the new Blood Brother sword (perma block), I think the magic number to shoot for is perma Iron Skin with 200M Reflective Skin to be a true thorns build.

Would love to see others findings.
No
04/09/2015 07:59 AMPosted by aieownyu
No

No you!

04/09/2015 07:56 AMPosted by Raspbuten
Welcome to 2.2!

I pulled the old dusty thorns gear out of the bank and played with some of the new itemization.

Blocking with Akarats Awakening is now far too slow to reduce Iron Skin cooldown. Roland's 2-piece is where it's at. Further, attacks per second with sweep attack is really the thing that eliminates your timer, probably better than raw CDR. Using near 50% CDR with Invoker2, Demon2, Leorics crown(45k total) and 2 piece Roland, I was hitting around 80M crits with Iron Skin fairly consistently. The new Laws of Hope (perma) put me around 40M toughness and in t6 I was near invinceable, albeit slow. I really am enjoying how 2,2 now gives you a real game of balancing IAS vs CDR vs RCR, and you're not bound to Akarats Champion.

With this build I was able to use Vo'Toyias and even Hack for a time (but again, the wrath cost of Sweep made it less than ideal, and the ias didnt outweigh the benefit of using Golden Flense).

I think some modifications in the way of an ORotZ for even more potential for perma Iron Skin is in the works, plus upgrading to Ancient Thorns gear.

With the toughness upgrades available by way of gems and the new Blood Brother sword (perma block), I think the magic number to shoot for is perma Iron Skin with 200M Reflective Skin to be a true thorns build.

Would love to see others findings.


Wrath cost was one of the places I was having a hard time balancing in the PTR. The reduction of 2-piece Roland's is much better and consistent than Akarat's Awakening. Attack speed is great to have this time around because it increases the rate you can use sweep or shield bash, but it's limited by your ability to keep resource, and out of all classes, I feel Crusaders are the worst at resource management... Like you said, it's a major balancing game now in 2.2.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/17070596960?page=1#3

Wow the blues actually posted a response to the invoker set... Awesome stuff... Thorns is getting a remake next patch... Let our voices be heard...

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/17070596960?page=3#57

This is really cool to hear that this thread has been on the devs radar, and we will be finally getting some love in the thorns department.

MightyMidget... kudos to your dedication and i think your hardwork will actually pay off in the upcoming patches...

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum