D̶P̶S Damage Meter

General Discussion
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07/12/2014 08:46 PMPosted by Phatty
ShadowAegis: I don't use in game DPS meters. Never installed turbohud or recount. So there goes that theory. Good try though, really.

What I have learned is that it is a very useful tool that many people in my community utilize. I have seen the benefit first hand for many purposes.

07/12/2014 08:26 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Look Phatty and Mikezilla learn to live without your crutch. That just shows me just how good of a gamer you are when you need a crutch like a dps meter to tell you how strong a build is. If you do not know enough about the game and cannot take any build along with the gear that supports it and figure out how far in Torment levels it can go. Along with being able to figure out about how far in GRs it can go then I feel sorry for your two and others like you.


I have 5/6 classes T6 geared with end game builds. Mike routinely plays T6 as well and is a wealth of knowledge about WD. That's some real sorry bait trolling you're doing there.


I call it a crutch because how did you get to where you are today without it. Remember you and others have said that Blizz recently took that information that they were using out. Rendering them utterly useless. You just want your crutch back.

Trust me I have seen players that can function quite well in raids and PvP in WoW without such a crutch. I have read threads of players that can do it and have seen a few videos of players in raids and PvP without those crutches. Even Lore (Josh Allen), now works for Blizz as a CM for WoW. I have seen such things in other games than WoW that have done just what I have said. So if they can do it then I know that in time I will be just fine without them. Hmm, I guess we have found out something that you and others like you cannot do, interesting.

Oh btw I just looked at your profile and I only see four classes that have a high enough dps that could possibly play T6. Where is your fifth class, what hiding your gear in the stash.
ShadowAegis: I don't use it - never have. I started the T6 rifting community without it. Members use it. I don't. I get information from them. I extrapolate from what they say.
07/11/2014 03:33 PMPosted by Zendiablo
Well, It doesn't matter what you are doing in town or any time spent standing afk in a cleared area. The time a player status changes from in combat to not in combat are the only two states which can be differentiated. So why would a player want to monitor a time period when they are not engaged with the monsters?


Please read my other posts pertaining to "total Damage Done IN A RIFT"

07/11/2014 03:33 PMPosted by Zendiablo
I think you are splitting a hair between a dps meter and damage meter


I am, unfortunately too many people base their arguments against a DPS meter, apparently unaware of the Damage Done information that comes along with it. Its a subtle but distinct difference, one I think you might have missed as well (during the first ½ of your post, anyway).
07/12/2014 05:25 AMPosted by TripMyWire
Ok i dont want a box on my screen just adding up damage numbers distracting me and clunking up my screen.

You can already tell if somone is destroying somthing in a public game or if someone is "being carried".

I use to stun block ubers back in the day i dont need a damge meter to tell me the WW barb was doing all the damage.

Game does not need a damage meter in my opinion


Great, while you have the right to post your opinion anywhere in the forums, please understand it has no relevance here. An option to turn off a Damage Meter is not a technical hurdle to overcome, and certainly not whats arresting its implementation.
07/12/2014 03:37 PMPosted by LMSskeletor
There's more important things to worry about than this. I would rather have Blizzard focus on other aspects of the game.


I agree, however Blizzard spent time away from other aspects in the game to actively disable client access to damage numbers only a couple weeks ago.
07/12/2014 12:15 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Why even the OP that the three of you want me to ignore says that Damage is the most important stat to him. So if I can ignore that then I can ignore what you are saying as well.


Do you not understand how Damage Done takes more than just DPS into account? Anything that it does not, has no effect on gameplay. How your gear is transmogged, gold find and magic find are the only factors that I am aware of that would not be taken into account. If you know of any others, (that I have not specifically proven inclusive elsewhere), please let me know.
07/12/2014 11:30 PMPosted by Phatty
ShadowAegis: I don't use it - never have. I started the T6 rifting community without it. Members use it. I don't. I get information from them. I extrapolate from what they say.


Sorry don't believe you simply because if it is something that you didn't need to make you the player that you are then you would not be crying when Blizz made them useless in a patch. So now you say it is even worse because you go by what others tell you instead of what you already know. You do realize that in some games like Rift, players have padded their numbers and lied about the dps numbers of others in a party just to try to make themselves look good. I have just looked at a few threads in Rift that says just that.

A player that knows he has really great end game build and gear for raids. He knows that his dps is not lower than 930 and has seen crits for well over 2k. Then someone else told him to use the meter to see if they are telling the truth. Which is what he done then he would be able to use that number the meter gives him and prove them wrong.

07/13/2014 12:46 AMPosted by Dooces
07/12/2014 12:15 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Why even the OP that the three of you want me to ignore says that Damage is the most important stat to him. So if I can ignore that then I can ignore what you are saying as well.


Do you not understand how Damage Done takes more than just DPS into account? Anything that it does not, has no effect on gameplay. How your gear is transmogged, gold find and magic find are the only factors that I am aware of that would not be taken into account. If you know of any others, (that I have not specifically proven inclusive elsewhere), please let me know.


You are like everyone else that is crying because you cannot use your crutch. Get over it, learn how to think for yourself and figure out how to get that information without resorting to the use of crutches like dps meters.

Oh and btw you better be glad that the devs just took away the numbers instead of banning those using them. Because you were using a third party software that was giving you numbers that others would not have access to normally during normal game play. They could've came down pretty hard with old Mr. Ban Hammer.
ShadowAegis: I know many people who have used the dps meters that were patched out. I have played with many. The information that they had was invaluable. Some of them are the experts who give the answers to hard questions here in the forum.

However, I haven't ever installed or use a dps meter personally. Sorry to burst your bubble.
You don't believe me? Are you saying I'm lying?

So many of the members of my community are involved in mechanics that the DPS meters are very important to them. I benefited from them indirectly. You most likely have also and don't even know it.

Some of these players have been using turbohud since it came out and haven't been banned. The program itself is 3rd party and CAN lead to banning, but it hasn't for unknown reasons.

I assume even Blizzard knows how important this information was for some of their demographics.

I feel they patched it out to provide us with an alternative and I don't think Greater Rifts is good enough.
Sticking to your car example because that's what you used, but we can pretty much use any tool in the cars place, in your previous post:

07/10/2014 01:51 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Meters are a tool and like all tools in real life and in games there are neither good or evil. It is the intent of the users that makes their use either evil or good. All tools in games and in real life can be used for both good and evil. Cars are a good example, they can be useful for a lot of things, but some have used them to kill people. Talk about me not staying on topic.


07/11/2014 06:51 AMPosted by Mikezilla


07/11/2014 06:16 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
You are just trying to down play the negative potential that dps meters could bring to the table. Trying to get me to think that they have all positives no negatives at all. Sorry there is nothing in gaming or real life that does not have pros and cons. Even tools have a potential to be used for good or evil. Even you know that because here is a reply you made to someone else that proves that you know what I am talking about.


You said cars have pros and cons, just like meters. Would you take away everyone's option to use a car then?


Simple yes or no.
07/08/2014 11:56 PMPosted by Snapshot
07/08/2014 07:03 PMPosted by Dusk
The person who posted about hexing pants vs. whatever is being lazy and should just lookup the answer and copy.

Ah yes, the sweet sound of ignorance in the evening.

Look up what answer exactly? The specific question is, "Given the exact build on my character and my personal play style how does the +damage from the hexing pants weigh off against the -damage from them given that I have to stop to proc sycophants?"

Other witch doctors I'm sure could speculate about the answer, just as I did before I made the swap. But theory is not fact.


Nope, nice try.

The question you should lookup is if hex pants are BiS for the build you copied. Your specific gear and especially your style of play are not relevant. For one thing most gear doesn't interact in that it isn't required to test and determine the actual benefit of an item. You'd know that if you ever actually did real testing which would involve isolating and removing variables.

Your style of play doesn't matter because it isn't about what you do but what can be done. In other words this piece of gear requires a change in style of play (unlike most items but I get you were reaching to try and make your argument because you know you don't really have one). Damage meters aren't going to answer any worthwhile question that you couldn't get the answer to otherwise.

I get that you want easy ways to test such that even more decisions in this game become trivial but I'm quite sure blizz wants there to be a difference between those that actually put in the effort to understand the game and those who don't. Lucky for you those people tend to share (or have to jump through hoops not to share like profile viewing on GR leaderboards) so you can still copy.

This is a long thread mostly because you folks like to bump. This will be my last post in it as I don't think it merits much attention at all but I wanted to give you folks the benefit of the doubt and at least ask for an example of scenario that required meters. You've failed to provide that or add to your argument in any constructive way for many pages now. Overall there are many reasons not to add this and I'm quite sure blizz will not as making testing (which isn't that difficult at this point given what is already known) easier doesn't outweigh the many negatives and even if it did the scope of this (i.e. so few want this) wouldn't put it anywhere on a priority list.
07/13/2014 10:13 AMPosted by Dusk
This will be my last post in it as I don't think it merits much attention at all but I wanted to give you folks the benefit of the doubt and at least ask for an example of scenario that required meters.


07/10/2014 05:15 AMPosted by Mikezilla
07/10/2014 04:49 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
You can try to water down the truth that dps meters have cons and in reality are not needed in this game period.


I guess you could argue that any add-on isn't needed for any game. But add-on's exist and make the game that much more enjoyable for those that choose to use them.

I'm not arguing that it is needed and that everyone should have them, I'm arguing that it should be an available option for those of us that want to use it. And if you are going to argue any kind of con that has to do with elitist/horrible/jerk players, refer to my previous post before this one, post 109.


Has anyone been arguing that it is required? I have been arguing that it should be an available option, whether from Blizzard or 3rd party.

07/13/2014 10:13 AMPosted by Dusk
Overall there are many reasons not to add this


I would love to hear your reasons!
07/13/2014 12:16 AMPosted by Dooces
07/11/2014 03:33 PMPosted by Zendiablo
Well, It doesn't matter what you are doing in town or any time spent standing afk in a cleared area. The time a player status changes from in combat to not in combat are the only two states which can be differentiated. So why would a player want to monitor a time period when they are not engaged with the monsters?


Please read my other posts pertaining to "total Damage Done IN A RIFT"

07/11/2014 03:33 PMPosted by Zendiablo
I think you are splitting a hair between a dps meter and damage meter


I am, unfortunately too many people base their arguments against a DPS meter, apparently unaware of the Damage Done information that comes along with it. Its a subtle but distinct difference, one I think you might have missed as well (during the first ½ of your post, anyway).


Honestly, I think their is some kind of disconnect here. I didn't miss anything and don't have any real issue with your post. I would support a damage meter, a dps meter, a performance meter and especially a meter that monitored , reported and hopefully controlled Shadowaegis
07/13/2014 10:13 AMPosted by Dusk
I get you were reaching to try and make your argument because you know you don't really have one


when people resort to this style of debate, the conversation is over. Every part of this post is preaching with virtually no content.. no meat on the bone.

That comment shows a total lack of listening to another point of view... more really a total unwillingness to listen or understand.
A dps meter would just be another tool with which ppl to violently stroke their Epeens.

(A hypothetical scenario)

*player A joins game
*player B notices player A's Epeen meter is shorter than his

*play B initiates Vote kick

it was super effective!

For all the ppl that want a DPS meter why not just track your stats via Diabloprogress???
07/13/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Karma2Burn
A dps meter would just be another tool with which ppl to violently stroke their Epeens.

(A hypothetical scenario)

*player A joins game
*player B notices player A's Epeen meter is shorter than his

*play B initiates Vote kick

it was super effective!

For all the ppl that want a DPS meter why not just track your stats via Diabloprogress???


Diabloprogress bases it's information off of profile dps. It gives a bit more information but since it is based on such a poor base, it actually doesn't give you any more accurate information and in some cases magnifies the error.

Also, if you make the dps information private and in accessible to other people, you won't have this epeen issue. You also have the option of NOT joining someone who is requiring some amount of performance proof.

People already look at your profile, gear, and build. A dps meter's aggregate average information over many rifts would give a more accurate representation of your skills and other intangibles that affect dps output. So you can actually do some self improvement.
07/13/2014 11:11 AMPosted by Zendiablo
07/13/2014 10:13 AMPosted by Dusk
I get you were reaching to try and make your argument because you know you don't really have one


when people resort to this style of debate, the conversation is over. Every part of this post is preaching with virtually no content.. no meat on the bone.

That comment shows a total lack of listening to another point of view... more really a total unwillingness to listen or understand.


It seems that everyone that has a problem with the idea of a dps/damage meter comes into this thread with an apparent attitude/emotional problem like the one you quoted, or the classic "go back to WoW", usually derailing the thread. Its also ironic how they then go on to argue elitism, like as if their own close-minded bad attitudes aren't a detriment to this community.

I would love to sit here and argue with a level-headed person about the pros and cons of a meter being an available option to this game.
07/13/2014 08:09 AMPosted by Phatty
ShadowAegis: I know many people who have used the dps meters that were patched out. I have played with many. The information that they had was invaluable. Some of them are the experts who give the answers to hard questions here in the forum.

However, I haven't ever installed or use a dps meter personally. Sorry to burst your bubble.
You don't believe me? Are you saying I'm lying?

So many of the members of my community are involved in mechanics that the DPS meters are very important to them. I benefited from them indirectly. You most likely have also and don't even know it.

Some of these players have been using turbohud since it came out and haven't been banned. The program itself is 3rd party and CAN lead to banning, but it hasn't for unknown reasons.

I assume even Blizzard knows how important this information was for some of their demographics.

I feel they patched it out to provide us with an alternative and I don't think Greater Rifts is good enough.


Maybe there is hope for you after all, because there are still things that you do not know about me. First of all I have played WoW in the past. I would say for around 2 years on and off again. I have used the following addons Auctioneer, addon that helps with mailing things to your alts (sorry forgot the name), and I did try out recount but only used it only for a little while on the PTR during a time I did some PTR testing.

I decided to see if I could learn the rotation for a fury warrior. Since I never had a level capped warrior. I decided to see if I could learn it. So I studied up on the rotation posted on sites like Elitist Jerks then went practicing on the dummies. Heck I even told a few in chat what I was doing and they said that they seen potential in me being able to handle the rotation. They said that if I got my warrior to cap they would help me perfect the fury rotation and I would be able to raid with them if I wanted to because they had a casual guild.

Then I will say about the last six months of on and off again playing of WoW I did not even use my favorite addon Auctioneer or the one for the mail. Auctioneer taught me enough about the AH at the time that I did not need it to help me earn enough gold for what my needs were in that game.

Also by nature I am not as trusting of others as some are. I only trust those that I know in Real Life, heck if I were gonna trust someone that I did not ever meet in real life (face to face meeting). I would trust the players that I was playing with in my super group in City of Heroes more than some of the players here in this game. Because I actually had talked with them using Ventrillo, so I did get to know them somewhat from just talking and would trust them more than others here in this game.

So what I am saying is that if I were you, I would not just take the word of the ones using the meters, I would have to use the dps meter myself to see if they are telling the truth. Because as someone else said stop watches are not a reliable method and neither is using GRs according to you and others that are wanting your dps meter crutch.
Dusk, I said this about you about 5 pages ago. You have lived up to expectations!!!

07/08/2014 08:19 PMPosted by Phatty

No offense buddy, but you seem pretty dead set in your views. No example no matter how specific would be good enough for you. You'd probably just keep on bringing up some roundabout explanation why it could be figured out in time with just testing and looking at skill/build/etc. I.E. - just look it up.


No surprise.

Luckily for you, there has been a workaround with one of the 3rd party programs for DPS, and people who use that will give you your lookup answers.

Although not everyone uses dps meters in additional to mathing out mechanics, I do know some of the prolific mechanics people do use or have used the prior 3rd party programs to give the community those lookup answers.
ShadowAegis, courtesy of billy madison:

No points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
07/13/2014 08:45 AMPosted by Mikezilla
Sticking to your car example because that's what you used, but we can pretty much use any tool in the cars place, in your previous post:

07/10/2014 01:51 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Meters are a tool and like all tools in real life and in games there are neither good or evil. It is the intent of the users that makes their use either evil or good. All tools in games and in real life can be used for both good and evil. Cars are a good example, they can be useful for a lot of things, but some have used them to kill people. Talk about me not staying on topic.


07/11/2014 06:51 AMPosted by Mikezilla


...

You said cars have pros and cons, just like meters. Would you take away everyone's option to use a car then?


Simple yes or no.


Sorry but your straw man has not affect on me because Blizz has to decide based on the pros and the cons. Cars have way more pros than cons so that is the way it is in real life. But that does not mean that the pros of dps meters outweigh the cons because they don't. It is that simple, Also I was using cars to show that even they can be used for evil. I was using them to show that all tools in the real world have both good and evil uses. The same is true for tools made for this game, I know you want me to believe that there will be no evil uses of a tool like a dps meter. But believe me there will be those that will put them to evil uses.

Along with the fact that they put more of a focus on dps than the devs want. They even said in a life stream that they want to lead players away from focusing too much on sheet dps. They want us to focus on the other stats as well.

07/13/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Zendiablo
07/13/2014 12:16 AMPosted by Dooces
...

Please read my other posts pertaining to "total Damage Done IN A RIFT"

...

I am, unfortunately too many people base their arguments against a DPS meter, apparently unaware of the Damage Done information that comes along with it. Its a subtle but distinct difference, one I think you might have missed as well (during the first ½ of your post, anyway).


Honestly, I think their is some kind of disconnect here. I didn't miss anything and don't have any real issue with your post. I would support a damage meter, a dps meter, a performance meter and especially a meter that monitored , reported and hopefully controlled Shadowaegis


Sorry but you will not get everyone nodding their empty heads in agreement on a public forums. They will say what they think about an idea regardless how good you tell them it is. I am the same as others, if players think that an idea is not good they will tell you, just like I will tell you. These forums are not someone posts and everyone instantly agrees on it. Public forums are not designed that way and that is not how a true discussion is suppose to work.

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