D̶P̶S Damage Meter

General Discussion
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07/07/2014 11:45 AMPosted by JoeShmo
All a dps meter is going to do is create another "gearscore / dps chart" fervorous threshold in people, full of ignorance like we have had for months now with the character sheet numbers.

07/07/2014 11:45 AMPosted by JoeShmo

Its just an artificial way of people figuring out how they can hold prestige and "bragging rights" over others, with no actual context to show or prove it. Its like trying to say you could be a nascar driver based on how well you put oil in your car.


Used to j̶u̶d̶g̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ hold prestige and "bragging rights"?

Almost like an unofficial leaderboard of top players. Are you saying Diablo 3 is no place for that?

Are you saying Diablo was never meant to be a competitive game? Perhaps you are right, and thats why we still don't have (really) PVP. Perhaps the devs are all about sunshine and rainbows, they want everyone to hold hands, as to not turn any business away. Maybe instead of trying to make a specific fan base happy, they're trying to make everyone happy. Great business strategy, anyway.
07/07/2014 02:00 PMPosted by Phatty

Most people who use dps meters to test builds use them in a lot of different circumstances and take that information with them when applying a decision whether or not a build is"better" or "worse". The dps meter is an additional tool to help you. Most people would not go about using 1 sample size with a dps meter for any solid determinations.


This is fine in controlled situations, like attacking a target dummy in WoW. There are plenty of tank and spank encounters where a pure dps statistic can be achieved, this is why while its still inaccurate, it gives the best sort of outcome in a boss fight to gauge how well you will do (minus raid buffs of course).

This is still an inaccurate portrayal of damage per class, because it does not factor in a lot of variables like cc, avoiding puddles, adds, offhealing, etc. There are ways to pad the charts, like aoe, standing in fire while a healer just heals you through it, using cooldowns at inopportune times for other players ( bloodlust when part of the raid is dealing with a mechanic and not dpsing a boss ), kiting, etc. Dps meters have been adapted to try and work with more variables and situations, but will still always fall short.

In a game like diablo 3, there are no vacuums to gauge dps, other than fights like Ghom, and there are only fights like Ghom that will benefit from this. There are too many things going on in typical combat for someone to just do "tests" between gear setups to find optimal builds for damage. In a game like diablo 3, where builds can make or break combat aesthetics, efficiency based on play-style and knowledge, situation A over situation B...when there 400+ situations to look at, its very unreasonable to presume there to be a surefire way to tally it all.

We already have combat numbers in game, which makes up 100% of what the OP was asking for. More extensive models help, but still limit your view to only a sliver of what makes up the combat.

In actuality, all its going to do is propagate situations where people make videos or posts stating "heres something I did on a whim" ..which will stir up a community of folks who just parrot what they saw and heard without critiquing it for themselves, and it turns into urban law, like "gearscore" and "dps meters" have done in the past. Just look at how the character panel was treated when RoS hit...everyone was going off of white numbers, without taking into consideration stuff not already implemented like elemental damage and ability damage. And even then, it still ignores every other stat on the character.

Masses cannot be trusted with "half truths" or misleading information, and the folks that publish said information dont feel compelled to be more thorough or upfront about the findings.

Just last month someone made a post about the changes in cache drop rates for higher torments, and:

1. Failed to make a big enough sample size
2. Failed to comprehend when one of his samples was 3x smaller than the other..when it should have been the same average.
3. Put it out there as "hey guys, guess what I worked on." , and people ate it all up including the one who did the "test".

Its one thing to use pieces of material for informative understanding, its another to "intentionally or not" pass said pieces of material on as the whole thing.

I agree that damage numbers can be useful in and of themselves, but how you apply that information makes all the difference; and using it to the grand scheme of how the diablo 3 combat works is bad science. Much more information needs to be used in tandem for it to be valid.
07/07/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dooces
07/07/2014 11:45 AMPosted by JoeShmo
All a dps meter is going to do is create another "gearscore / dps chart" fervorous threshold in people, full of ignorance like we have had for months now with the character sheet numbers.

07/07/2014 11:45 AMPosted by JoeShmo

Its just an artificial way of people figuring out how they can hold prestige and "bragging rights" over others, with no actual context to show or prove it. Its like trying to say you could be a nascar driver based on how well you put oil in your car.


Used to j̶u̶d̶g̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ hold prestige and "bragging rights"?

Almost like an unofficial leaderboard of top players. Are you saying Diablo 3 is no place for that?

Are you saying Diablo was never meant to be a competitive game? Perhaps you are right, and thats why we still don't have (really) PVP. Perhaps the devs are all about sunshine and rainbows, they want everyone to hold hands, as to not turn any business away. Maybe instead of trying to make a specific fan base happy, they're trying to make everyone happy. Great business strategy, anyway.


Much like your previous posts, you make comments for the sake of making them. If you have an arguement, make it. Stop talking like the "fox news" you blame blizzard to be acting as.
They already have a DPS meter in the game but it doesn't use numbers .

Grailer has killed <insert elite or RG name here> ( again .. and again .. )

when this keeps appearing in chat while grouping you know you are carrying the entire group . So then you go solo same rift lvl and do it 2x faster than with the group . Yep carried some mofos again .


all that shows is who got the last hit.

I am quite confident blizzard wants to keep these numbers hidden for a reason (other than the bull!@#$ ones they tell us). Imagine how much more constructive these forums would be if they were actually honest with us. I am sure there are individual blues with some morality left, who find their deception hard to swallow at times.

Dick Chaney would make an excellent blue. Actually, no. Dick would be an excellent Blizzard CEO, Colin Powell is more akin to the roll of the blues.

I wonder if Colin actually believed the stories he was in charge of conveying?


I am pretty sure that Blizzard has a handle of how dps is used in the game. To even use a dps meter you need a baseline to start and a metric to apply it to. How many different elites does D3 have, and how many combinations of affixs. How about mob density? There is no way you can say that you will get a meaningful reading of Dps. You can have very high dps on one mob and low dps on another. You will not have a static value to measure it against.

Here is how it works. A guy gets a perfect storm in the game where he has great crits, he may never see again and guess what he uses that as his dps forever.

When I change gear I set my torment level and run act one from rumford at the gate to killing mira or at times the SK. While the mobs very they are fairly consistent . What I look for is How fast I kill the mobs and how I deal, with the damage taken. This is all that matters. The numbers are useless , simply because there is no standard to measure them against. Same build , same run will vary wildly from run to run.

All this community would do with Dps meters is use them to compare classes and deride others. All on meaningless data. If you can't tell wither you are doing better or worse with a gear or skill change you should be playing another game.
07/07/2014 02:12 PMPosted by DeadRu
Every game that has dps meters has seem them abused. They invariably end up being used to judge others. In some instances they alter game play. In WoW if you are in a Battle ground I have sen players abandon defending a flag to fight in the center simply to build up their dps on the meters, then we lose that bg. If you call them on it it is always I was top dps. Sure but no flags defended, none attacked Now if the other side is ahead and you are fighting them on the road you are playing their game.


I don't see how these negatives outweight the benefits, especially in D3, a game without PvP, raids or anything like that.

The only problem that may affect players is if you are trying to run a higher T and you get booted because your DPS doesn't meet the, 'standard' for that T.

And in fear of that, you want to prevent players from better understanding their characters and seeing how their different skills and items change their effectiveness?

Especially as your characters get more powerful, item upgrades are more and more merely incremental. So many items seems like they are all but equal, but when you switch, you can see clearly, "Oh, my DPS was way down that act run. I guess the weapon proc didn't make up for the stat loss as I thought it might."
07/07/2014 02:12 PMPosted by DeadRu

Every game that has dps meters has seem them abused. They invariably end up being used to judge others. In some instances they alter game play. In WoW if you are in a Battle ground I have sen players abandon defending a flag to fight in the center simply to build up their dps on the meters, then we lose that bg. If you call them on it it is always I was top dps. Sure but no flags defended, none attacked Now if the other side is ahead and you are fighting them on the road you are playing their game.


You are ABSOLUTELY right that dps meters do get abused. That's because it's natural for the entire community to gravitate to the most accurate measure of competency - since right now people use profile dps, gearchecks.

They ARE used to judge others - and sometime appropriately, and other times inappropriately.

The team dynamic and knowledge of the people using the DPS meter is what maters. The public games right now won't get any better or worse with DPS meters. It will help clans and communities in many ways though. Elitism is an attitude with a certain purpose. It's not the dps meter.
...

all that shows is who got the last hit.

I am quite confident blizzard wants to keep these numbers hidden for a reason (other than the bull!@#$ ones they tell us). Imagine how much more constructive these forums would be if they were actually honest with us. I am sure there are individual blues with some morality left, who find their deception hard to swallow at times.

Dick Chaney would make an excellent blue. Actually, no. Dick would be an excellent Blizzard CEO, Colin Powell is more akin to the roll of the blues.

I wonder if Colin actually believed the stories he was in charge of conveying?


I am pretty sure that Blizzard has a handle of how dps is used in the game. To even use a dps meter you need a baseline to start and a metric to apply it to. How many different elites does D3 have, and how many combinations of affixs. How about mob density? There is no way you can say that you will get a meaningful reading of Dps. You can have very high dps on one mob and low dps on another. You will not have a static value to measure it against.

Here is how it works. A guy gets a perfect storm in the game where he has great crits, he may never see again and guess what he uses that as his dps forever.

When I change gear I set my torment level and run act one from rumford at the gate to killing mira or at times the SK. While the mobs very they are fairly consistent . What I look for is How fast I kill the mobs and how I deal, with the damage taken. This is all that matters. The numbers are useless , simply because there is no standard to measure them against. Same build , same run will vary wildly from run to run.

All this community would do with Dps meters is use them to compare classes and deride others. All on meaningless data. If you can't tell wither you are doing better or worse with a gear or skill change you should be playing another game.


I agree that having context makes a huge difference. I personally like when people look at clear times for Rifts as a form of how they are doing. While not perfect, it takes into consideration just about everything involved in diablo 3 combat and class mechanics. There are still some underlying factors like pylons that can affect things, or imbalanced items, but it gives a much more concise understanding of a class's "strength" when you can measure how well it does in an average assortment of monster targets, including a boss type at the end.

This also happens to be the avenue that blizzard is taking towards balancing classes and items, with Greater Rifts, so its not unreasonable to say that blizzard prefers practical measurements of data rather than cherry picked ones. A stance they have taken for a long time in WoW, but fell on deaf ears because of "recount" and "dr robot" .
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I agree that damage numbers can be useful in and of themselves, but how you apply that information makes all the difference; and using it to the grand scheme of how the diablo 3 combat works is bad science. Much more information needs to be used in tandem for it to be valid.


As opposed to rift leaderboards, ranking which gimmick works best?

Each tier of greater rifts REQUIRES a minimum TOTAL AVERAGE DPS (derived from total damage done, derived from summing all snapshots of DPS). All that matters, the absolute only factor deciding whether or not you completed the GR in time, is if your group TOTAL AVERAGE DPS was above the minimum. That is it. The binary system that checks whether or not you've completed it in time does not take into account how good your gear looks transmogged, or how many times you died.

There is a group leaderboard for greater rifts in 2.1.

Are you saying, that this tool ought not be made available to help find players of an equivalent skill / aptitude, because those tools could potentially be applied to (trying to quote you right here) "the grand scheme of how the diablo 3 combat works is bad science"?

Are you saying that the group leaderboards are not intended to elicit competition?

They do.

If I'm in a group, how do you propose I identify who the weak link is if we don't hit our time? Previously, someone I knew used a dps meter (until it was actively disabled during maintenance), used it to run very efficient T6 rifts, quickly spotting weak links, people AFKing, people with 1.5 mil sheet dps but were dead too often to be effective. It was incredibly useful in the implied competition of hitting 5 min T6 rifts.

But you say, how dare I, how dare I even suggest, how rude I am, how ignorant I must be not to understand that these tools could be used for evil, not for good. !@#$%^-*!@ity is blasphemy, and causes floods you proclaim.

D3 is a competitive game. Dps meters have more of a place here than WoW.
07/07/2014 02:43 PMPosted by JoeShmo

I agree that having context makes a huge difference. I personally like when people look at clear times for Rifts as a form of how they are doing. While not perfect, it takes into consideration just about everything involved in diablo 3 combat and class mechanics. There are still some underlying factors like pylons that can affect things, or imbalanced items, but it gives a much more concise understanding of a class's "strength" when you can measure how well it does in an average assortment of monster targets, including a boss type at the end.

This also happens to be the avenue that blizzard is taking towards balancing classes and items, with Greater Rifts, so its not unreasonable to say that blizzard prefers practical measurements of data rather than cherry picked ones. A stance they have taken for a long time in WoW, but fell on deaf ears because of "recount" and "dr robot" .


I think all these situation would be much better served with aggregate information including DPS.

You could easily make dps meters 1) an option 2) defaulted to off 3) and invisible to others.

You also could create a dummy rift that lasts about 2 minutes and gives stats at the end to the players and over team information.

DPS numbers for each individual person does not need to be given to the other team. People can get an idea how they are progressing in their skills / gearing for certain builds quite easily with DPS feedback.

Especially with a community that is actively discussion these numbers, it would easy to get an range that would be considered the norm for a certain class and build. (this already happens btw).
07/07/2014 02:47 PMPosted by Dooces
[quote]

I agree that damage numbers can be useful in and of themselves, but how you apply that information makes all the difference; and using it to the grand scheme of how the diablo 3 combat works is bad science. Much more information needs to be used in tandem for it to be valid.


As opposed to rift leaderboards, ranking which gimmick works best?

Each tier of greater rifts REQUIRES a minimum TOTAL AVERAGE DPS (derived from total damage done, derived from summing all snapshots of DPS). All that matters, the absolute only factor deciding whether or not you completed the GR in time, is if your group TOTAL AVERAGE DPS was above the minimum. That is it. The binary system that checks whether or not you've completed it in time does not take into account how good your gear looks transmogged, or how many times you died.

There is a group leaderboard for greater rifts in 2.1.

Are you saying, that this tool ought not be made available to help find players of an equivalent skill / aptitude, because those tools could potentially be applied to (trying to quote you right here) "the grand scheme of how the diablo 3 combat works is bad science"?

Are you saying that the group leaderboards are not intended to elicit competition?

They do.

If I'm in a group, how do you propose I identify who the weak link is if we don't hit our time? Previously, someone I knew used a dps meter (until it was actively disabled during maintenance), used it to run very efficient T6 rifts, quickly spotting weak links, people AFKing, people with 1.5 mil sheet dps but were dead too often to be effective. It was incredibly useful in the implied competition of hitting 5 min T6 rifts.

But you say, how dare I, how dare I even suggest, how rude I am, how ignorant I must be not to understand that these tools could be used for evil, not for good. !@#$%^-*!@ity is blasphemy, and causes floods you proclaim.

D3 is a competitive game. Dps meters have more of a place here than WoW.


/sigh. Why are you still mentioning leader-boards and competition? What do they have to do with the damage charts you propose? Good and Evil? Are you getting biblical now?

As for the rifts example, you just blatantly, although you probably didn't even catch it, stated that dps means nothing if you keep dying, or are not fighting. We keep going around and around about this...and its not sinking in, even when you state the same sort of examples I've mentioned before.

Seeing someone's dps is not going to give you an accurate portrayal of how they are doing, all it's showing is how much damage they are doing. If you think you can just dps you way to GRift 100, by all means try it.

07/07/2014 02:50 PMPosted by Phatty
I think all these situation would be much better served with aggregate information including DPS.

You could easily make dps meters 1) an option 2) defaulted to off 3) and invisible to others.

You also could create a dummy rift that lasts about 2 minutes and gives stats at the end to the players and over team information.

DPS numbers for each individual person does not need to be given to the other team. People can get an idea how they are progressing in their skills / gearing for certain builds quite easily with DPS feedback.

Especially with a community that is actively discussion these numbers, it would easy to get an range that would be considered the norm for a certain class and build. (this already happens btw).


I still find it harmful to the user to be viewing dps meters, even if it's just their own, when the context of them is misleading. The numbers become moot when you have to consider efficiency of survival and damage output at the same time; the only thing that matters is results of the labor.

Seeing "3 million dps" while fighting an elite pack doesn't give you any relevant information, other than you've done 3 million dps to this pack of elites. Going from 3 million to 6 million doesn't mean anything unless you have results for that increase in damage, like clearing a rift in half the time for example. The clear time is the intended measurement of your characters worth, not what the dps numbers given to you.

In the end, a dps meter like recount in wow, will give you no more information than what is written on your character sheet under damage; in the same manner that toughness gives you no better details on your survivability other than a number to look at, since much bigger factors play into it like what stats contributed to your toughness and how quick are you to run out of mortar puddles.

Could it be used as a measurement of how your gear compares? Sure, exactly like it functions now without the dps meters. Its just a different number given to you, without the context to make it meaningful, just like we have in the character sheet now.

I do agree with the idea of making it "self only" though, that would be a much better system if it was implemented. Give information to the user, about the user, without being able to abuse it or hound the progress of others because of an inaccurate system.

I never had a real problem with the addon "gearscore" when it was used for oneself (siting inaccuracy), its when its believed to be able to gauge other peoples abilities...and ability in general, that it becomes a problem more than just being misleading; it becomes easily malicious.
I understand why they aren't going to implement a DPS meter into the base UI, I mean it's not exactly like it's needed for the majority of players and if everyone had it I could see a select few abusing its intention.

What I don't understand however, is why they would hotfix in a change that killed all 'external' damage meters that were currently working? Aside from the fact that they were technically against the TOS, what harm were they really doing? In my time of playing I had never once had someone tell me my dps wasn't up to par or even mention damage in a party and yet these damage meter addons were popular amongst the community. I had people tell me in game what they were and where to download them if I wanted to, and yet none used them as an excuse to abuse or promote negative gameplay. It was all just for people to self-reflect on runs and figure out how to improve efficiency which is what diablo is about...

I love diablo but there are a few things in this game that really bug me and it pains me to see them. There are some changes that occur that just make little to no sense to me and it's not so much that I'm mad that they removed a feature that seemed cool or beneficial to some people, but it's that it was removed unnecessarily when there are so many other more pressing issues that desperately need the attention. The community wants so badly to help, but when changes are implemented without reason or logic, and then hugely constructive and positive threads are left somewhat ignored it's demoralizing for us. I hope that there's leniency towards external features such as this and that decisions in future can be better communicated and better explained so we can understand and offer feedback based on this.

As a personal request - please revert the recent changes. These tools allow players to analyze builds which I feel is something that can only benefit diablo. Even if you don't make a damage meter something available in your UI as a standard feature for the masses, at least allow us to find the means to use one externally so we can take the experience to another level and get in depth with the mechanics behind the game.
Yeaaaaaaa more WoW in Diablo!

Less WoW more DIABLO! Diablo doesn't need DPS meters.
07/07/2014 02:26 PMPosted by JoeShmo

This is fine in controlled situations, like attacking a target dummy in WoW. There are plenty of tank and spank encounters where a pure dps statistic can be achieved, this is why while its still inaccurate, it gives the best sort of outcome in a boss fight to gauge how well you will do (minus raid buffs of course).


Controlled situations, like the ideally homogeneous Greater Rifts in 2.1?

I don't think you've got the mental faculties to grasp what I've been saying.

You seem be arguing that these meters shouldn't be used on target dummies in D3 because its not an accurate reflection of your true damage potential. Except, there are no target dummies in D3.

If in 100 greater rifts, your total damage averaged 10bn per rift, I put to you that is a very accurate picture of your damage potential in Greater rifts, a picture which takes every aspect of gameplay into account. I challenge you to paint a more accurate picture without a total damage done brush.
07/07/2014 03:18 PMPosted by motion
I understand why they aren't going to implement a DPS meter into the base UI, I mean it's not exactly like it's needed for the majority of players and if everyone had it I could see a select few abusing its intention.

What I don't understand however, is why they would hotfix in a change that killed all 'external' damage meters that were currently working? Aside from the fact that they were technically against the TOS, what harm were they really doing? In my time of playing I had never once had someone tell me my dps wasn't up to par or even mention damage in a party and yet these damage meter addons were popular amongst the community. I had people tell me in game what they were and where to download them if I wanted to, and yet none used them as an excuse to abuse or promote negative gameplay. It was all just for people to self-reflect on runs and figure out how to improve efficiency which is what diablo is about...

I love diablo but there are a few things in this game that really bug me and it pains me to see them. There are some changes that occur that just make little to no sense to me and it's not so much that I'm mad that they removed a feature that seemed cool or beneficial to some people, but it's that it was removed unnecessarily when there are so many other more pressing issues that desperately need the attention. The community wants so badly to help, but when changes are implemented without reason or logic, and then hugely constructive and positive threads are left somewhat ignored it's demoralizing for us. I hope that there's leniency towards external features such as this and that decisions in future can be better communicated and better explained so we can understand and offer feedback based on this.

As a personal request - please revert the recent changes. These tools allow players to analyze builds which I feel is something that can only benefit diablo. Even if you don't make a damage meter something available in your UI as a standard feature for the masses, at least allow us to find the means to use one externally so we can take the experience to another level and get in depth with the mechanics behind the game.


I can sympathize with your sentiment , from one viewpoint it would seem like a cruel thing to do to just cut off the 3rd party apps like that. In hindsight though, its not as if it was a knee-jerk reaction on blizzards part. They have had almost a decade of examples from WoW in how DPS meters function and influence the game and community.

It may see harmless now, must like how people saw threat meters and dps meters harmless (And useful!) when they first came out, they did eventually propagate so much into the game and culture that it changed the game drastically. Blizzard HAD to design content around the assumption that everyone was using a threat meter...that dps meters were being used and players were complaining about content and balance because of it. This is not to say that there were complaints because of the use of these addons, but that complaints arose because of their influence; there's a fine difference between the two.

If this was the first time we ever saw dps meters, I would be much less critical of them, mostly out of ignorance. There is a lot more to it than just sporadically changing something that's perceived useful.
07/07/2014 03:15 PMPosted by JoeShmo

As for the rifts example, you just blatantly, although you probably didn't even catch it, stated that dps means nothing if you keep dying, or are not fighting. We keep going around and around about this...and its not sinking in, even when you state the same sort of examples I've mentioned before.


Really, consider the possibility that perhaps, just maybe, im not the one missing the point here. Just consider the possibility.

DPS implies multiple seconds, you are arguing against Damage done one time in one instant on a target dummy that doesn't exist in D3 meter.

Instantaneous DPS, the devil you're trying to exorcise outright, is a very small aspect of a Damage meter. Very small, very insignificant.

Your logic is as follows:

Bath water is dirty.
You throw out dirty bath water.
Babies must die.
07/07/2014 03:23 PMPosted by Dooces
07/07/2014 02:26 PMPosted by JoeShmo

This is fine in controlled situations, like attacking a target dummy in WoW. There are plenty of tank and spank encounters where a pure dps statistic can be achieved, this is why while its still inaccurate, it gives the best sort of outcome in a boss fight to gauge how well you will do (minus raid buffs of course).


Controlled situations, like the ideally homogeneous Greater Rifts in 2.1?

I don't think you've got the mental faculties to grasp what I've been saying.

You seem be arguing that these meters shouldn't be used on target dummies in D3 because its not an accurate reflection of your true damage potential. Except, there are no target dummies in D3.

If in 100 greater rifts, your total damage averaged 10bn per rift, I put to you that is a very accurate picture of your damage potential in Greater rifts, a picture which takes every aspect of gameplay into account. I challenge you to paint a more accurate picture without a total damage done brush.


I can only fathom that you are just trolling now, since you are just feeding back to me what I've already stated numerous times as if it was your idea all of a sudden all along.

The difference in our arguements, was that you concluded that just having dps numbers facilitated an understanding of character power in all situations; and that it also mystically interpreted your survival stats and skills into its number.

My argument was that you needed a much more broad understanding and collection of data than just a dps number. There are numerous variables to consider. In a later post, I specifically pointed out Rifts as a key point of note in how to gauge character progression.

Lo and behold, you talk about Rifts in the same manner I do in regards of gauging player progression.

The only problem now is that you have abandoned your initial argument (lack there of) of dps meters...and have just relegated to using it as intermittent talking points while mentioning the subjects I have.

You also like to make weird outlandish statements about random stuff that has no actual meaning, like talking about how Diablo 3 has no target dummies.

Again, you state the obvious, and say things for the sake of saying them. When you have an argument, make one.
Blues, if you want to have an actual dialectic with your playerbase, fox news talking points and excuses might not be the best approach. Decisions could not possibly be made based on the non sequitur reasoning you typically afford the forums. Respect shown to the playerbase is reflected with constructive feedback.


Blizzard has made it clear that they do not want a damage meter because of the negativity it brings from elitist players. Put simply, players would get kicked from groups because they are not hitting an arbitrary number set by the playerbase.

As for your statement I bolded above, I think you might want to look up the definition of non sequitur, as you, yourself, are not using logic to draw your conclusion.

You also might want to look up the definitioin of "ad hominem" while you are at it.


I still find it harmful to the user to be viewing dps meters, even if it's just their own, when the context of them is misleading. The numbers become moot when you have to consider efficiency of survival and damage output at the same time; the only thing that matters is results of the labor.

Seeing "3 million dps" while fighting an elite pack doesn't give you any relevant information, other than you've done 3 million dps to this pack of elites. Going from 3 million to 6 million doesn't mean anything unless you have results for that increase in damage, like clearing a rift in half the time for example. The clear time is the intended measurement of your characters worth, not what the dps numbers given to you.

In the end, a dps meter like recount in wow, will give you no more information than what is written on your character sheet under damage; in the same manner that toughness gives you no better details on your survivability other than a number to look at, since much bigger factors play into it like what stats contributed to your toughness and how quick are you to run out of mortar puddles.

Could it be used as a measurement of how your gear compares? Sure, exactly like it functions now without the dps meters. Its just a different number given to you, without the context to make it meaningful, just like we have in the character sheet now.

I do agree with the idea of making it "self only" though, that would be a much better system if it was implemented. Give information to the user, about the user, without being able to abuse it or hound the progress of others because of an inaccurate system.

I never had a real problem with the addon "gearscore" when it was used for oneself (siting inaccuracy), its when its believed to be able to gauge other peoples abilities...and ability in general, that it becomes a problem more than just being misleading; it becomes easily malicious.


And when the context isn't misleading, it's fine? I think the context is limited to the person interpreting the data. You are assuming that the data is interpreted improperly, which I'm sure will happen just like many other things that we have - like healing score, the toughness score, profile dps.

All these things need context and need the bigger picture, only then do they have any meaning. DPS meters are no different. They require some amount of skill and experience ot make good use of them.

That being said, there's absolutely no reason to limit this information to the player to better themselves and for that player to use real time feedback either in a controlled environment or as an way to aggregate numbers for practical play application.

It is inaccurate in some ways, but extremely accurate in others. Again, interpretation should be left to the player and their purpose.

I understand that people have had experiences that make them feel that dps meters would foster elitism, but coming at age 39, being in multiple player environments such as muds. I've seen real time dps feedback meters be more of a boon than a bane.

There is a definite bias against it from WoW players. But Dps meters have been around for much longer than that.

07/07/2014 03:43 PMPosted by Zepheron

Blizzard has made it clear that they do not want a damage meter because of the negativity it brings from elitist players. Put simply, players would get kicked from groups because they are not hitting an arbitrary number set by the playerbase.


Unfortunately, I think this stance from blizzard is founded on a true-true unrelated issue. However, perhaps the bad taste from WoW is something that can't be washed out even with games that depend on totally different content and structure.
07/07/2014 03:32 PMPosted by Dooces
07/07/2014 03:15 PMPosted by JoeShmo

As for the rifts example, you just blatantly, although you probably didn't even catch it, stated that dps means nothing if you keep dying, or are not fighting. We keep going around and around about this...and its not sinking in, even when you state the same sort of examples I've mentioned before.


Really, consider the possibility that perhaps, just maybe, im not the one missing the point here. Just consider the possibility.

DPS implies multiple seconds, you are arguing against Damage done one time in one instant on a target dummy that doesn't exist in D3 meter.

Instantaneous DPS, the devil you're trying to exorcise outright, is a very small aspect of a Damage meter. Very small, very insignificant.

Your logic is as follows:

Bath water is dirty.
You throw out dirty bath water.
Babies must die.


Ok then.


Let me clarify, and apologize for my inaccurate forum thread. It should have been titled Damage Done Meter. It should show how strong your arguments against are, when they can be so easily diffused by calling the same thing a different name.


That was your quote, talking about changing it from "dps meters" to "damage done meters" .

I didn't change the wording, you did. Regardless of if its "dps" or "damage done" ..its the same flawed statistic. You're just grasping at straws now, and looking foolish doing so, especially with how childish your demeanor is...resulting to insults and far fetched "quotes" about what I've said or insinuated.

Lawl.


That's like a child changing the rules mid game to fit themselves, and then sneering "see...you didn't know how to play."


That one was my quote :)

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