D̶P̶S Damage Meter

General Discussion
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07/27/2014 10:02 AMPosted by Lane
Did you ever play WoW and do random heroics with other players using the LFG tool? Invariably, people were rude to each other, critiqued each other and were just plain jerks for no other reason than they could be.

I even found myself falling into that when I doing more damage than the rest of the group combined and getting annoyed with them.

It doesn't matter that the tool is supposed to be used for a good purpose, it will just end up causing more drama than it is worth. Leave it on the PTR for testing purposes. Or disable it in random pugs.


Those same people already exist in D3. They just use paragon points, gear, profile dps, your build...

But again, if people are concerned with this, you can make the dps meters be 1) an option 2) defaulted to off 3) not party wide (just personal).
07/27/2014 09:39 AMPosted by Lane
The last thing this game needs is anything that makes it more like WoW so that blowhards can critique everything you do.


I've seen this fairly frequently, the reference to some anti WOW sentiment, if, in this case, someone wants an addon feature like what happens to be available in WOW. For me to have empirical data in this game has nothing to do with your jaded experience in WOW, which I think is a great game. I stopped playing because of 45 min queue times to log in to my server which I felt was unreasonable for a game I was paying a subscription fee. The game is still, IMO, the best game out there and heads and shoulders better than Diablo. It would be nice if the Diablo team looked at what is great about WOW and incorporated more of that game, not less, just to satisfy the anti wow player base.

As for your concern about blowhards ... delusions of grandeur. Do you think anyone cares about everything you do? As for your logic, let me get this straight. Meter = More like WOW which = blowhards have the ability to critique everything you do. Is that about it?

Then you go on to explain the usefulness in PTR for such a tool. Why does the usefulness go away?

Just another Believer that shuns empirical data that may threaten said belief system.
07/27/2014 10:02 AMPosted by Lane
Did you ever play WoW and do random heroics with other players using the LFG tool? Invariably, people were rude to each other, critiqued each other and were just plain jerks for no other reason than they could be.

Nope, I bailed from WoW the moment they lost their way and started adding all that raid content. Nor did I ever use a meter in WoW.

So I'll ask you the same question I tried to ask Shadow. In D3 you have a 4 person party. 3 people in that party are power gamers and want to focus on maximizing xp gain for the session. 1 person is a casual and wants to take time to smell the roses and doesn't have a particularly strong build.

So what you have is a group with two mutually conflicting goals. How do you think this situation ought to be resolved?
07/27/2014 01:41 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Is it slower than a meter, no doubt


'nuff said
07/27/2014 10:02 AMPosted by Lane
Did you ever play WoW and do random heroics with other players using the LFG tool? Invariably, people were rude to each other, critiqued each other and were just plain jerks for no other reason than they could be.


Even though you were kind of enough to admit to being this person (the person you became), I have run thousands of heroic dungeons and many hundreds of LFR and rude behavior and comments were the odd exception, not the rule. If you are saying that you misused a tool, so therefore, so will others, is pretty thin. You would agree to the use if it is just for personal and not group information - a check box in the UI options to show or not to show meter information should suffice.
07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
You do realize that I said that I got what I wanted out of it right? Oh so for those that use a dps meter they cannot use for the sole purpose of getting the information that they want then turn it off huh. If you install it you must use it 24/7 forever, very interesting.


Yes, yet you couldn't make near the gold that you did with it, because you didn't have all the information you needed anymore.

A build will never be 100% done, there will always be skill changes from Blizzard, better items and player skill to look into, I have no idea of how many times I have changed build and items up till now but it's not few that's for sure.

Is it needed 24/7, no, will it be helpful most of the time, yes.

07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Wait till GRs are on live. Then you can run an experiment with both rings.


Guess you didn't understood the irony with two rings with the same stats except for CDR and crit, because it can take people 100 of hours to even get two of those rings and then they need to be lucky enough to have the same stats as well.

07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
And here is how you do it.

1. Set a definite amount of time to get a decent sample size.
2. Keep track of your starting time and stop time of your play sessions. You can use screenshots with that to mark the time if you need it. Due to the fact that the game has a clock in the upper left hand corner near the mini map. So no stop watch needed.
3. Keep track of the amount of xp gained per play session.
4. Keep track of the rank of the GRs cleared.
5. Keep track of the time it took to clear those ranks.
6. Keep track of the total amount of GRs cleared.

After you are through with the first ring whether it is Crit or CDR. You can do the following.

1. Add together the amount of xp gained over the whole time period.
2. Add together the total time played. Which should the be the set amount of time (roughly).
3. Add together the ranks of GRs cleared.
4. Add together the time it took to clear them.
5. Divide the amount of xp gained by the total amount of hours played to get your xp per hour.
6. Divide the total ranks cleared by the amount of GRs cleared.
7. Divide the total time it took to clear the GRs by the amount of GRs cleared.

Then repeat the process with the second ring. You can run the experiment as much as needed in order to confirm which ring is better.


If you are crazy in the head maybe... I want to play the game, not look at 1000 screenshots about my exp and time used every single time I change my build or don't know if an item is an upgrade or not.

07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Because then it is more fun to explore and learn those things on your own without the help of any dps meters. I have no doubt that there are many that have figured out the best builds without any dps meter.


I have no doubt that I and many others would definitely find it more fun to play the game than to look at 100000 screenshots of exp and time numbers.

07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Fist of all you have to consider that with an inaccurate tool like sheet numbers they cannot really do much. They can tell others what the best builds are. But the chances are there will be a lot of players that already know what the best builds are for any given class. There are more than enough players that are way smarter than you or I that can figure those things out for themselves without a dps meter. And that is what I was telling Phatty IIRC when I was talking about players that have fun learning on their own what the best builds for their chosen class are.


But we are not talking about people finding their best build on their own, we are talking about people who will abuse and ram the best build down peoples throat and you said that the chance for that is slim to none so you must believe that there is almost no abusers out there.

07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Again here you are either saying that all players are low grade morons without dps meters. Or you will say that there are many players that can find those builds without them. There is no middle ground here. The ball is in your court and I will be waiting for your answer.


No I am not because we are talking about abusers not if people can find the best build with a damage meter or not.

But if I was to answer that I would say that there probably is many players that could find those builds without them but knowing if they want 50% CDR and 45% crit or 42% CDR and 51% crit I doubt they would know without any help from a damage meter.

07/27/2014 09:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Maybe for you it will not be that way. But for others (jerks), everyone that is not playing the best builds will be called a leecher. Everyone not playing the builds that those jerks want them to play will be seen as a leecher. You will see a new form of griefing that does not exist due to the dps meter.


No, people that don't contribute to the group progress will be seen as a leecher and why shouldn't they?

And what we will see is that people will join the right tier for their gear and build because they know they will get kicked if they can't contribute to the group so eventually we will actually see less and less people getting kicked or getting the best build rammed down the throats.
07/27/2014 11:22 AMPosted by Gattsu
No, people that don't contribute to the group progress will be seen as a leecher and why shouldn't they?

That, right there, is the 64 meeeeeelyon dollar question. If someone is actually leeching then why should they not be seen as a leech and treated accordingly?

At what point did reality become out of vogue?

edited to add:
Broadening that question, if 1 person is harming the fun and enjoyment of 3 other people what should the 3 other people do about it?
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Because it is misleading.
You seem to believe it is not, while I do.
Actually, I think you are already gravely misdirected, among others.

So, it is not beneficial, it is detrimental.


It is now obvious to me that you do not understand what operationalizing is or how to give specific examples on how something is beneficial or not beneficial. Saying "because it is misleading" is just more random craziness.

In my opinion you have just graduated to Troll status. Your post no longer require a response as there is no chance for a true dialectic process of thesis, anti-thesis, and synthesis.

It is also clear that you have no idea or actual experience on any type of performance meter in games. Elsewhere, you have said "because people are confused" ... Can you see how absurd a sweeping and general statement like that is?

You finalize the silliness by making a "So.." statement like some how you have arrived at some grand logical outcome.

It's too bad you don't understand.
The developers do.

I have to make sweeping statements, because there is no point trying to get into specifics. Especially when communicating with someone who does not intend to consider the counterpoints. I'm sure you will understand at some point.

Let me elaborate on why it is misleading though.. No wait, that's been thoroughly done throughout the entire thread which you have participated in. Thing is, you never accepted or considered the counterpoints offered. So you still don't know what the opposition has stated, because you just disregard it as false information. It's a good way to get ignored yourself actually, because nothing anyone tells you will stick. You have simply made up your mind already and will go to any length, not to strengthen your own position, but to undermine the others. You are the troll, I am simply giving my short opinion on the subject.
Bombus, unless you're a deVeloper, I don't think the stance on misleading is accurate. I belieVe their stance so far officially has been that it a dps meter would proVide too much emphasis on DPS. (their blue post).

EVerything else is speculation.

The problem about using misleading as a reason is that there are A LOT of aspects of the game that can be misleading. DPS meters actually would be less misleading than the current system to eValuate personal gearing/builds.

Also, being ambiguous is part of the mystique that you claim is one of the aspects of gameplay that Blizzard MIGHT be wanting to preserVe.
07/27/2014 12:46 PMPosted by Phatty
preserVe

OK, completely off topic but I just have to ask, "What the heck was going on with your "V" key in that post?"
Lol, I haVe it mapped for multiboxing with hotkeynet so lower case V doesn't transmit right now. too lazy to exit out of the program.
07/27/2014 12:46 PMPosted by Phatty
Bombus

Ofcourse it's speculation.

07/27/2014 12:46 PMPosted by Phatty
Also, being ambiguous is part of the mystique that you claim is one of the aspects of gameplay that Blizzard MIGHT be wanting to preserVe.

Well.. I don't know. I'm just tinfoiling their reason.
But if they patch something out, they don't want it in. Simple.
If they don't, they have a reason.

To me, there's a lot of unnecessary viewing of dps. Damage numbers for instance. Completely irrelevant, for anything other than testing. Still, people have it on.
Bust the aesthetics of the game, hard. WITHOUT REASON!
I don't use healthbars, NOT EVEN WHEN I RUN PALM! Cause it's useless. They all need to die and I'm not forgetting that champion who are low on health anytime soon. Still, people think its relevant, but its not. Don't believe me? Run without that junk for awhile and see what you think.
07/27/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Bombus
I don't use healthbars, NOT EVEN WHEN I RUN PALM! Cause it's useless.

*sigh* And it is exactly this sort of myopic viewpoint which causes this debate.

You know what I use those useless health bars for? With my ageing eyesight and with my army of minions and the raft of particles on the screen they help me just to see where the darned enemies are. I agree, I don't particularly need to see the actual health percentage... a little red dot would do just as well LOL. But no, they are not useless. They are only useless TO YOU.
07/27/2014 01:27 PMPosted by Snapshot
07/27/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Bombus
I don't use healthbars, NOT EVEN WHEN I RUN PALM! Cause it's useless.

*sigh* And it is exactly this sort of myopic viewpoint which causes this debate.

You know what I use those useless health bars for? With my ageing eyesight and with my army of minions and the raft of particles on the screen they help me just to see where the darned enemies are. I agree, I don't particularly need to see the actual health percentage... a little red dot would do just as well LOL. But no, they are not useless. They are only useless TO YOU.

Look. I'm not against the healthbars. I just said that for effect. And because I don't use them ofcourse. They're not useless. They're actually pretty cool. I just like it without them and it works fine. But it's true, some awareness will be lost without them, but since this is a mash'em kinda game, you don't need to be fully sharp.
I like your red dot idea, that's very nice. I think Blizzard should consider that.
07/27/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Bombus
Well.. I don't know. I'm just tinfoiling their reason.
But if they patch something out, they don't want it in. Simple.
If they don't, they have a reason.


Well, they haVe "allowed" the tracking of DPS for oVer 2 years - why now? I would speculate that they feel that haVe a good enough surrogate in the form of greater rifts (which if that is the case - this system has a bunch of problems).

07/27/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Bombus
To me, there's a lot of unnecessary viewing of dps. Damage numbers for instance. Completely irrelevant, for anything other than testing. Still, people have it on.
Bust the aesthetics of the game, hard. WITHOUT REASON!


Well, it is for testing for the most part. People are testing their builds and gear. For others it will be used for screening purposes - some appropriately some not (if they are aVailable to others to see).

07/27/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Bombus
I don't use healthbars, NOT EVEN WHEN I RUN PALM! Cause it's useless. They all need to die and I'm not forgetting that champion who are low on health anytime soon. Still, people think its relevant, but its not. Don't believe me? Run without that junk for awhile and see what you think.


Well, I think that's just sloppy / lazy play. But if that's how you play, power to you. Healthbars are especially important in deciding what to palm - especially if you are managing spirit.

I see that the type of player you are, DPS meters would be useless for you - no argument there.

I, howeVer, find their information useful and as I mentioned before just getting that information by proxy I was able to apply it to my own personal improVement and to team dynamics / synergy / and improVement as well.

Just because you don't find it useful, doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful. Some of the information that we take for granted in these forums are deriVed from testing on DPS meters - and people don't eVen know it.

Not supporting either 1) the DPS meters implementation or 2) patching back in the DPS attribute is biting the hand that feeds you to some degree - especially if you came onto the forums looking for information about complex gearing choices.
07/27/2014 01:32 PMPosted by Bombus
Look. I'm not against the healthbars. I just said that for effect.

*nod* But you say the same thing about damage meters... that they are useless. I can guarantee you that they are not useless for ME. Who knows? It may have something to do with being an engineer so living in a world of numbers and formulas. It may be that I'm a closet power gamer dressed in casual clothes LOL. Whatever it is, I can guarantee you that I derived quite a bit of useful information from watching my real time damage in real combat situations. Whether they are useless to YOU is, of course, your call. But they are not useless in general. Data is never useless. Reality is never useless.
07/27/2014 01:36 PMPosted by Phatty
Well, I think that's just sloppy / lazy play. But if that's how you play, power to you. Healthbars are especially important in deciding what to palm - especially if you are managing spirit.

Yeah sure, if I need to do it proper.
But it's not so important if you just wanna blow some stuff up.

07/27/2014 01:38 PMPosted by Snapshot
07/27/2014 01:32 PMPosted by Bombus
Look. I'm not against the healthbars. I just said that for effect.

*nod* But you say the same thing about damage meters... that they are useless. I can guarantee you that they are not useless for ME. Who knows? It may have something to do with being an engineer so living in a world of numbers and formulas. It may be that I'm a closet power gamer dressed in casual clothes LOL. Whatever it is, I can guarantee you that I derived quite a bit of useful information from watching my real time damage in real combat situations. Whether they are useless to YOU is, of course, your call. But they are not useless in general. Data is never useless. Reality is never useless.

Well.. Overabundance of data scrambles how reality look like, if you can't sort it.

A dps meter wouldn't be useless, I have to concur on that.
But it would put a laser focus on dps, in an already dps centric game.
I still think that could be a mistake.

07/27/2014 01:36 PMPosted by Phatty
I see that the type of player you are, DPS meters would be useless for you - no argument there.

Hah, it wouldn't.. I'd be staring at that just as much as everyone else.
It would be interesting, I'm sure of that.
But.. I still think it would be a mistake to implement them.
It's just my opinion. Perhaps they will put them in at some point?
Cause they are certain to have some very fine dps measurement tools available.
07/27/2014 01:44 PMPosted by Bombus
A dps meter wouldn't be useless, I have to concur on that.
But it would put a laser focus on dps, in an already dps centric game.
I still think that could be a mistake.

I think you and Blizzard concur.

As has been pointed out by many, DPS actually takes into account everything... and I do mean everything.... all the way down to movement speed. Everything which is required to actually deliver damage in the non-theoretical world of spreadsheets is measured and accounted for. I know this factually because I have made changes to my character which reduced damage numbers in favor of mitigation numbers and the damage meter confirmed my theory... DPS increased. Actual, deployed DPS is a perfectly good way to measure the overall performance of any non-support character. For a support character the DPS still measures accurately you just need to look at the composite DPS of the group.

Personally, I can't quite believe it's coincidental that they disabled the damage meters just prior to 2.1. The meters would have given positive confirmation of the effects of their changes and honestly, that would've been disastrous. As it sits, players can still retain many comfortable fictions.
07/27/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Snapshot
07/27/2014 01:44 PMPosted by Bombus
A dps meter wouldn't be useless, I have to concur on that.
But it would put a laser focus on dps, in an already dps centric game.
I still think that could be a mistake.

I think you and Blizzard concur.

As has been pointed out by many, DPS actually takes into account everything... and I do mean everything.... all the way down to movement speed. Everything which is required to actually deliver damage in the non-theoretical world of spreadsheets is measured and accounted for. I know this factually because I have made changes to my character which reduced damage numbers in favor of mitigation numbers and the damage meter confirmed my theory... DPS increased. Actual, deployed DPS is a perfectly good way to measure the overall performance of any non-support character. For a support character the DPS still measures accurately you just need to look at the composite DPS of the group.

Personally, I can't quite believe it's coincidental that they disabled the damage meters just prior to 2.1. The meters would have given positive confirmation of the effects of their changes and honestly, that would've been disastrous. As it sits, players can still retain many comfortable fictions.

My own observations are the same. Mitigation is very important for dps.

I think they did it because they don't want too close scrutiny of build performance.
To me, that's fine. I like tinkering and "feeling" my way forward. But I can understand it is annoying from a competitive point of view. Or just an information one.
With it, there's no escape using it anymore. It will be an integral part of how you play. Perhaps Blizzard feel some imagination is lost there?
You could argue that the actual math is the imagination though.. At least its construct. I dunno if the best way is to illuminate or obscure it. I love math, it's very interesting. But sometimes the fiction is better when you can't see the cogs and wheels making it behind the scenes.
07/26/2014 02:28 PMPosted by Phatty
Are you serious?

Are YOU serious?

There's nothing wrong with my statement.

DPS meters are designed for real time feedback of your damage output. Period.

Which may have NOTHING to do with making a particular build better.

Taking the same sample size and information. DPS meter aggregate data will come out to be more accurate than any of your other methods. In fact, the dps meter information can be used in conjunction with ANY of your methods to make them BETTER.

Only if it had a start/stop button.

My point is that you can compare builds with already AVAILABLE techniques. In fact, it's been going on for a long time now.

No, because you have controlled instances that don't reflect true dps situations. Solitary mobs, or doing cursed chest runs over and over again - will not reflect this.

They're static instances that do not change. The results of those events change only with your performance. If you want to measure your DPS only, they're good enough.

Average exp /hour doesn't take into account downtime nor map density. Sorry, you're wrong.

DPS meters are subject to the same limitations. By this extension, you're wrong as well.

Turbohud's dps meter had time in combat and turned off damage tracking if you were out of battle. Also didn't count conduit damage and a few other things.

So, if you're running away while avoiding damage because your health went too low, your DPS isn't tracked. I can then increase my health so that I run around less and do more damage, but Turbohud will NOT see any difference in performance. Sounds like those DPS meters are even MORE limited than simple XP gain averaging.

See above. There are confounding variables that xp gain over time will _NOT_ be as accurate as a dps meter in the same time frame for equipment/gear changes/comparison. TOGETHER they could be even more useful / compliment each other. I'd take more information/data then less any day.

See above.

You obviously have no idea what a dps meter is nor provides in regards to information. Sounds like you need to educate yourself behind the basics of the third party meters before they got patched out.

Sounds like I do not want to get banned. No thank you to your suggestion.

I can categorically tell you that DPS meters ... have been a positive thing to the game for the community as a whole for over 2 years.

You CANNOT make this statement, as you DO NOT represent the entire community "as a whole".

It may not be in Blizzard's best interest to have this information readily available to the community due to imbalances. So perhaps, their motives are wholly different than your reasoning.

My reason simply says that devs know better than you do when it comes to what is good for this game and what is not.

It really is that simple.

The only 2 arguments against the meters from your standpoint are:
1) it isn't needed.
2) it's for epeening.

3) they're not useful for the claimed purpose of measuring build performance.

Because you obviously won't be budging on your stance and neither will I.

We're good then. I'm simply expressing my agreement with the devs on this subject and providing my reasoning, as well as questioning the validity of the opposing claims.

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