D̶P̶S Damage Meter

General Discussion
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07/07/2014 03:31 PMPosted by JoeShmo
I can sympathize with your sentiment , from one viewpoint it would seem like a cruel thing to do to just cut off the 3rd party apps like that. In hindsight though, its not as if it was a knee-jerk reaction on blizzards part. They have had almost a decade of examples from WoW in how DPS meters function and influence the game and community.

It may see harmless now, must like how people saw threat meters and dps meters harmless (And useful!) when they first came out, they did eventually propagate so much into the game and culture that it changed the game drastically. Blizzard HAD to design content around the assumption that everyone was using a threat meter...that dps meters were being used and players were complaining about content and balance because of it. This is not to say that there were complaints because of the use of these addons, but that complaints arose because of their influence; there's a fine difference between the two.

If this was the first time we ever saw dps meters, I would be much less critical of them, mostly out of ignorance. There is a lot more to it than just sporadically changing something that's perceived useful.


your points make sense - but I'm not sure if we'd see such a need to balance changes around external damage meters in diablo. It's a very different game to WoW and while balance is important it is much less so than in WoW. In WoW having your class fall behind even slightly on damage was reason for people to be excluded from content entirely depending on guild and therefore the dev team had to go all out to ensure players were treated equally and classes were balanced. In diablo this simply can't occur, damage meters are a relatively personal thing and while when 2.1 hits it's important that classes are relatively equal, I don't think that they need to be so equal that any damage meters showing a slight difference otherwise would warrant significant resources to make them equal.

As a DH (this is a second account, I have a lot of experience with the class) I have known for a while that some classes excel in certain situations while we excel in others, not hugely but enough to be noticeable and to me that is perfectly fine. I don't expect classes to be perfectly balanced in an ARPG and I think it would be unfair on everyone for anyone to expect that. ARPGs are more about player power and exercising that power rather than equality and fine-tuning that equality down to an exact science. To me external damage meters would not need the devs to drastically shift their resource allocation to accommodate, it would merely allow players a deeper look into their class and for more hardcore players to fine-tune things further than they currently would. I suspect the vast majority of the playerbase wouldn't even bother to look up a damage meter, let alone download it and use it to analyze their gameplay. The overwhelming majority are happy enough that their class is powerful and they can make monsters explode I feel which is great and I encourage that mindset as that's really the fundamentals of an ARPG, it's just a minority of us would like to go a little deeper into builds and mechanics which a damage meter allows.
07/07/2014 12:13 PMPosted by Dooces
nowing your damage done on the fly lets you better understand your character

THANK YOU

I could give a rats !@# about comparing my e-peen with random strangers on the internet. I wouldn't actually want to be in a party with anyone who was into that anyway so no problem there. I do, however, like to understand my character and the build decisions I make. Theorycrafting is all well and good but there is never any substitute for actual real world measurements. It is the basis of the scientific method.

I personally remain unconvinced on the whole "elitism" line of thinking. Nobody has a god given right to force their way into a party of like minded people. That's what the vote/kick system is FOR. It is a mechanism for dealing with incompatible play styles through democracy.
07/07/2014 03:45 PMPosted by Phatty


And when the context isn't misleading, it's fine? I think the context is limited to the person interpreting the data. You are assuming that the data is interpreted improperly, which I'm sure will happen just like many other things that we have - like healing score, the toughness score, profile dps.

All these things need context and need the bigger picture, only then do they have any meaning. DPS meters are no different. They require some amount of skill and experience ot make good use of them.

That being said, there's absolutely no reason to limit this information to the player to better themselves and for that player to use real time feedback either in a controlled environment or as an way to aggregate numbers for practical play application.

It is inaccurate in some ways, but extremely accurate in others. Again, interpretation should be left to the player and their purpose.

I understand that people have had experiences that make them feel that dps meters would foster elitism, but coming at age 39, being in multiple player environments such as muds. I've seen real time dps feedback meters be more of a boon than a bane.

There is a definite bias against it from WoW players. But Dps meters have been around for much longer than that.

[/quote]

Ah, but see if someone's false interpretation of something leads to a community following, then there's a problem. This isn't speculation either, this is historical fact that this happens.

Would you rather give people something that does nothing better than what we have now, but only gives people a bolstered reason to believe in it?

Or would you rather just make sure that less unpredictable and potentially harmful situations can manifest itself by keeping a redundant system out of reach?

Interpretation isn't a "neutral" stance, or a harmless one. It has the potential to be good, or bad, and historically its used to furnish personal agendas, rather than to be objectively observed.

There should be no room for interpretation, ever, in any context or subject. Leaving something open for interpretation in Diablo 3 is just asking for trouble. Take for example all the interpretation of item drop rates that goes on, and how much it creates a circle of turmoil on the forums.

Adding a dps meter option isn't going to clear up any misconceptions of character damage, but it will be used as an affirmative tool, especially by those that have been accustomed to it from previous games like WoW.

Its not unreasonable to presume that a large deal of the players that play Diablo 3 had also played WoW for a good period of time. This means that just hearing the phrase "dps meters" will constitute a uniform understanding of what it is and what it will do, and what it means in regards to picking teams for sports.

I wish to be very optimistic about damage meters, but there's too much history that contradicts that. If it was much more fleshed out like I had mentioned in previous posts, my stance on it would be much more different. But with the context of this game, and how it functions, a dps meter would only do more harm than good, even if it just misinformed people and nothing more.
07/07/2014 03:40 PMPosted by JoeShmo
Again, you state the obvious, and say things for the sake of saying them. When you have an argument, make one.


I argue you did not read my initial post, which started this thread.

07/07/2014 03:40 PMPosted by JoeShmo
The difference in our arguements, was that you concluded that just having dps numbers facilitated an understanding of character power in all situations


really? when? where?

07/07/2014 03:40 PMPosted by JoeShmo
My argument was that you needed a much more broad understanding and collection of data than just a dps number.


Your argument is not an argument. You need a much more broad understanding and collection of data than just a dps number TO WHAT?

Here's another analogy you wont understand, but for others reading above a grade 5 level who do, ill include it anyway:

You need much more of A than B.

TO WHAT?

To asses total damage potential?

Regardless of if its "dps" or "damage done" ..its the same flawed statistic.


While that I accept you are not mentally able to understand simple concepts, I will put this simply laid out argument to you regardless:

I argue that a DPS meter, with all the inherent data it would track, provides the most accurate picture of you, and your characters damage potential, taking into account all aspects of gameplay.

07/07/2014 03:23 PMPosted by Dooces

If in 100 greater rifts, your total damage averaged 10bn per rift, I put to you that is a very accurate picture of your damage potential in Greater rifts, a picture which takes every aspect of gameplay into account. I challenge you to paint a more accurate picture without a total damage done brush.


I argue my argument has not changed since my initial post:

07/07/2014 03:40 PMPosted by JoeShmo
The only problem now is that you have abandoned your initial argument (lack there of) of dps meters...and have just relegated to using it as intermittent talking points while mentioning the subjects I have.


07/06/2014 06:10 PMPosted by Dooces
Damage done reflects toughness, healing, utility, awareness, reaction time, skills, type of mouse you use, and how much apoptosis the paint chips and glue have caused. Damage done is inherent with any DPS meter.
07/07/2014 03:52 PMPosted by JoeShmo
Regardless of if its "dps" or "damage done" ..its the same flawed statistic.


07/07/2014 02:26 PMPosted by JoeShmo
I agree that damage numbers can be useful in and of themselves


I can't believe I am spending time arguing with this guy.
07/07/2014 01:01 PMPosted by JoeShmo
Knowing your damage only takes into consideration your damage done, it does not account for any other variable. In a vacuum, hitting a target dummy that does not fight back or move around

When obviously smart people say obviously stupid things then we are in the land of what I call "lawyering". My teenagers used to do this a lot. I was particularly uninterested.

You can't possibly think that those of us who want damage meters want them to use on target dummies, right? Not seriously. Why would you even make such an argument. No wait... I know.
07/07/2014 04:09 PMPosted by Snapshot
07/07/2014 12:13 PMPosted by Dooces
nowing your damage done on the fly lets you better understand your character

THANK YOU

I could give a rats !@# about comparing my e-peen with random strangers on the internet. I wouldn't actually want to be in a party with anyone who was into that anyway so no problem there. I do, however, like to understand my character and the build decisions I make. Theorycrafting is all well and good but there is never any substitute for actual real world measurements. It is the basis of the scientific method.

I personally remain unconvinced on the whole "elitism" line of thinking. Nobody has a god given right to force their way into a party of like minded people. That's what the vote/kick system is FOR. It is a mechanism for dealing with incompatible play styles through democracy.


well said - the changes to the vote kick system further showed that the devs understand that players can easily disagree and the solution is quite easy. Diablo can just as easily be enjoyed solo as in a party - and if you prefer a party then those who are incompatible with your goals with the game can be kicked. You can also leave the game and join a new one within a few seconds. There really is no reason for anyone to need to force themselves to group with people who they simply don't see eye to eye with and who annoy or frustrate them. There are solutions in place to counter this that work extremely well.
Posted by JoeShmo
Again, you state the obvious, and say things for the sake of saying them. When you have an argument, make one.

I argue you did not read my initial post, which started this thread.

If I didn't I would have never made my initial post. I don't know how you are arguing it though, wheres the argument?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

<span class="truncated">...</span>

That's one of them.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Was that an argument? Was that an error in quoting? Was that English?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Wait...was the analogy in the above? Do I have to keep looking for it down below?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

While that I accept you are not mentally able to understand simple concepts, I will put this simply laid out argument to you regardless:

I argue that a DPS meter, with all the inherent data it would track, provides the most accurate picture of you, and your characters damage potential, taking into account all aspects of gameplay.

Was that the analogy? It certainly wasn't an argument. An opinion maybe?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

I argue my argument has not changed since my initial post:

That's not called an argument, that's called a statement. You state that your argument hasn't changed, or you believe it hasn't (I would go with that one).

Again though...where's the argument in all this?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

<span class="truncated">...</span>


And random quotes at the end.....

Context? Wait...that's the analogy. Clever.[/quote]

What?

Any discussion with you is futile. I will waste no further time addressing your gibberish.

I argue you did not read my initial post, which started this thread.


If I didn't I would have never made my initial post. I don't know how you are arguing it though, wheres the argument?

07/07/2014 03:40 PMPosted by JoeShmo
The difference in our arguements, was that you concluded that just having dps numbers facilitated an understanding of character power in all situations


really? when? where?

------
Damage done reflects toughness, healing, utility, awareness, reaction time, skills, type of mouse you use, and how much apoptosis the paint chips and glue have caused.


That's one of them.


Your argument is not an argument. You need a much more broad understanding and collection of data than just a dps number TO WHAT?


Was that an argument? Was that an error in quoting? Was that English?


Here's another analogy you wont understand, but for others reading above a grade 5 level who do, ill include it anyway:

You need much more of A than B.

TO WHAT?

To asses total damage potential?


Wait...was the analogy in the above? Do I have to keep looking for it down below?


While that I accept you are not mentally able to understand simple concepts, I will put this simply laid out argument to you regardless:

I argue that a DPS meter, with all the inherent data it would track, provides the most accurate picture of you, and your characters damage potential, taking into account all aspects of gameplay.


Was that the analogy? It certainly wasn't an argument. An opinion maybe?


I argue my argument has not changed since my initial post:


That's not called an argument, that's called a statement. You state that your argument hasn't changed, or you believe it hasn't (I would go with that one).

Again though...where's the argument in all this?

07/07/2014 03:40 PMPosted by JoeShmo
The only problem now is that you have abandoned your initial argument (lack there of) of dps meters...and have just relegated to using it as intermittent talking points while mentioning the subjects I have.


07/06/2014 06:10 PMPosted by Dooces
Damage done reflects toughness, healing, utility, awareness, reaction time, skills, type of mouse you use, and how much apoptosis the paint chips and glue have caused. Damage done is inherent with any DPS meter.


And random quotes at the end.....

Context? Wait... that's the analogy. Clever.
07/07/2014 04:09 PMPosted by JoeShmo

Ah, but see if someone's false interpretation of something leads to a community following, then there's a problem. This isn't speculation either, this is historical fact that this happens.

Would you rather give people something that does nothing better than what we have now, but only gives people a bolstered reason to believe in it?

Or would you rather just make sure that less unpredictable and potentially harmful situations can manifest itself by keeping a redundant system out of reach?

Interpretation isn't a "neutral" stance, or a harmless one. It has the potential to be good, or bad, and historically its used to furnish personal agendas, rather than to be objectively observed.

There should be no room for interpretation, ever, in any context or subject. Leaving something open for interpretation in Diablo 3 is just asking for trouble. Take for example all the interpretation of item drop rates that goes on, and how much it creates a circle of turmoil on the forums.

Adding a dps meter option isn't going to clear up any misconceptions of character damage, but it will be used as an affirmative tool, especially by those that have been accustomed to it from previous games like WoW.

Its not unreasonable to presume that a large deal of the players that play Diablo 3 had also played WoW for a good period of time. This means that just hearing the phrase "dps meters" will constitute a uniform understanding of what it is and what it will do, and what it means in regards to picking teams for sports.

I wish to be very optimistic about damage meters, but there's too much history that contradicts that. If it was much more fleshed out like I had mentioned in previous posts, my stance on it would be much more different. But with the context of this game, and how it functions, a dps meter would only do more harm than good, even if it just misinformed people and nothing more.


I hate to see this discussion end due to going to semantics. So let's agree not to got there.

Interpretation occurs throughout this game. It's assessment of said data and making a deduction from that data and possibly use it in a decision. Whether it is profile dps, gear checking, build, paragon level, or dps - it doesn't matter.

You can not police people's interpretation nor should you use fear for misinterpretation as a reason to hold back information which in your opinion is as inaccurate as whatever else we have now.

Whether or not a community is made or destroyed by misinterpretation has no merit because in itself it could happen to any "statistic" we have available now.

I would argue that real time dps information is the most accurate way to track practical effectiveness of certain builds with a large enough sample size, you would have a good average and a 95% confidence interval.

There are plenty of games where DPS meters are very useful and constructive in even more complex environments than D3. So I would argue the opposite fact that the history you have is as much anecdotal as mine. If we did a meta analysis of dps meters and games, we would not be able to establish a causal effect of dps meters leading/causing elitism.

Thusly, using fear of elitism as a reason to deny data is intrinsically flawed.
07/07/2014 04:14 PMPosted by Dooces
07/07/2014 03:52 PMPosted by JoeShmo
Regardless of if its "dps" or "damage done" ..its the same flawed statistic.


07/07/2014 02:26 PMPosted by JoeShmo
I agree that damage numbers can be useful in and of themselves


I can't believe I am spending time arguing with this guy.


I cant believe you keep talking out of context.

07/07/2014 04:16 PMPosted by Snapshot
07/07/2014 01:01 PMPosted by JoeShmo
Knowing your damage only takes into consideration your damage done, it does not account for any other variable. In a vacuum, hitting a target dummy that does not fight back or move around

When obviously smart people say obviously stupid things then we are in the land of what I call "lawyering". My teenagers used to do this a lot. I was particularly uninterested.

You can't possibly think that those of us who want damage meters want them to use on target dummies, right? Not seriously. Why would you even make such an argument. No wait... I know.


Yes, my entire argument in the last 3 pages was about having everyone use dps meters to attack target dummies.

What about teenagers again?


What?

Any discussion with you is futile. I will waste no further time addressing your gibberish.


Sorry, you were just waiting to quote me that you grabbed a post that got garbled in the edits a few sec before i deleted it to fix it up.

At least one of us has the gall to give up from gibberish.
07/07/2014 04:41 PMPosted by Phatty

I hate to see this discussion end due to going to semantics. So let's agree not to got there.

Interpretation occurs throughout this game. It's assessment of said data and making a deduction from that data and possibly use it in a decision. Whether it is profile dps, gear checking, build, paragon level, or dps - it doesn't matter.

You can not police people's interpretation nor should you use fear for misinterpretation as a reason to hold back information which in your opinion is as inaccurate as whatever else we have now.

Whether or not a community is made or destroyed by misinterpretation has no merit because in itself it could happen to any "statistic" we have available now.

I would argue that real time dps information is the most accurate way to track practical effectiveness of certain builds with a large enough sample size, you would have a good average and a 95% confidence interval.

There are plenty of games where DPS meters are very useful and constructive in even more complex environments than D3. So I would argue the opposite fact that the history you have is as much anecdotal as mine. If we did a meta analysis of dps meters and games, we would not be able to establish a causal effect of dps meters leading/causing elitism.

Thusly, using fear of elitism as a reason to deny data is intrinsically flawed.


You can drastically lessen misinterpretation by not making tools or leaving information that leads to that kind of interpretation. Its not an absolute, its an effect. If you want to argue semantics of the word "interpretation" in context of the debate, by all means.

In contrast, I would love to read your argument(s) on the accuracy of dps information as you mentioned.

Lastly, there was no use of fear of elitism in my post, or in a proposed refusal of a dps meter system. Its not fearful to expect that type of situation, its being realistic. Again, almost a decades worth of evidence to support any "fears" there would be, and not just from "a small minority of elitists" as was presumed earlier. People seem to think bad things are only isolated incidents (as well as people tend to think bad things are wide spread), but objectively the use of dps meters has lead to a corruption of all WoW content, even if some folks dont use it as such. See how far you get with doing half the dps of the 2nd place guy in a 5 man ...it almost never ends pretty.
I think I made pretty valid arguments about why comparing a damage meter in WoW vs diablo shouldn't be made...if you have anything to counter that please feel free to do so JoeShmo
In all honestly, this seems to be a flavor change. I really wouldn't mind seeing one - but I don't have any strong desire to have one either. Just another pretty number to watch.
07/07/2014 05:11 PMPosted by motion
I think I made pretty valid arguments about why comparing a damage meter in WoW vs diablo shouldn't be made...if you have anything to counter that please feel free to do so JoeShmo


Na, I've already made my points about that subject, and in all honesty I'm pretty tired. I will give it more thought though and if I do have more I think I could add, I'll do so later or tomorrow.
07/07/2014 02:38 PMPosted by Goodbrew
The only problem that may affect players is if you are trying to run a higher T and you get booted because your DPS doesn't meet the, 'standard' for that T.


That is exactly why Blizz does not have a DPS meter, as I mentioned before. Now if they put in a damage meter that only showed your numbers, I don't think that would be problematic. However, Blizz has plenty of experience in this regard over several titles, so they may not think even a self-only meter would be prudent.
07/07/2014 05:17 PMPosted by Zepheron
07/07/2014 02:38 PMPosted by Goodbrew
The only problem that may affect players is if you are trying to run a higher T and you get booted because your DPS doesn't meet the, 'standard' for that T.


That is exactly why Blizz does not have a DPS meter, as I mentioned before. Now if they put in a damage meter that only showed your numbers, I don't think that would be problematic. However, Blizz has plenty of experience in this regard over several titles, so they may not think even a self-only meter would be prudent.


standard based exclusion already exists when you inspect another player - if their gear doesn't meet a standard for any particular torment then that player has a higher chance of being removed from the game. This already happens in most high torment games, or at least did when they were still really challenging. Adding a personal damage meter would only shift being kicked from a game from a gear-based decision to a skill-based decision if the gear requirement was already there. If someone was quite obviously not attempting to put effort in to the actual gameplay is it wrong to bring it up when you compare it to kicking someone for not having the required level of stats? Would you rather people were judged on gear or the effort they put into the game in a team-based setting where being efficient counts?

Like you said too, there are potentially ways around this to avoid being able to see someone elses damage done at all which would be a good compromise for players like myself who really just want to see my damage done with different builds to optimize.
07/07/2014 04:58 PMPosted by JoeShmo

You can drastically lessen misinterpretation by not making tools or leaving information that leads to that kind of interpretation. Its not an absolute, its an effect. If you want to argue semantics of the word "interpretation" in context of the debate, by all means.

In contrast, I would love to read your argument(s) on the accuracy of dps information as you mentioned.

Lastly, there was no use of fear of elitism in my post, or in a proposed refusal of a dps meter system. Its not fearful to expect that type of situation, its being realistic. Again, almost a decades worth of evidence to support any "fears" there would be, and not just from "a small minority of elitists" as was presumed earlier. People seem to think bad things are only isolated incidents (as well as people tend to think bad things are wide spread), but objectively the use of dps meters has lead to a corruption of all WoW content, even if some folks dont use it as such. See how far you get with doing half the dps of the 2nd place guy in a 5 man ...it almost never ends pretty.


I think it's absolutely appropriate to screen people via their profile numbers, gear, and build FOR damage dealing classes. This is a surrogate for their actual game play.

DPS meters actually give real time information in that regard. If it's private and not shared, a person can use that information to gage if their playstyle/skill is appropriate. For example, it is common knowledge among people who run 3rd party dps meters right now what the average damage is for various classes and builds. Because this data comes from many rift runs and aggregate information from many players who share said data. A person can use that information to assess if they are playing a lightning monk appropriately or any class/build that has a decent skill cap.

It's very accurate.

With enough data, dps meters actually have enough sample size to be give fairly precise damage ranges.

If a player utilizes this method to test their builds in real time over several rifts, they can get an idea of the effectiveness of that build. Actual use. Not theoretical. This is much more accurate than any other method we have now.

BTW before wow, there were muds, mushes, everquest, etc all have had dps meters or 3rd party addons that allowed that data to be mined. Damage parsers, etc. Causal effect of dps meters for elitism was not something I saw in these games.

There is a logical fallacy that is occuring with WoW. An automatic assumption that it was the DPS meter that created the elitism. Whereas I could argue that the elitism already existed and gravitated to the DPS meters use.

Appropriate removal of low dps players blown out of proportion by egocentric / narcisstic individuals that could not find that they were actually playing inappropriate characters for the content they had selected and were holding back people.

If you doing half the dps of the 2nd person, it might really be appropriate to kick you. That's how it works and it might be working as intended.
You guys with your walls of text are funny. It's this simple -

DPS meters would be useful to many...

But the BNET community has proven over the years that elitists will use DPS meters to exclude the 'average' player, so they're not going to be implemented into D3.

You can argue all day long about how much useful info they provide; like anything, they're harmful when misused, and Blizzard doesn't trust its community enough not to misuse DPS meters. Nor should they. Ya'll are a bunch of poop socking a'holes.

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