|_-) we need a "good" feedback thread in ptr

Demon Hunter
Today... I noticed...

Monk, Barb, and Wiz all got some new information release, for good or bad. They get blue response. Us are still in the dark. I would blame ourselves especially those that seek to nerf the set power of Marauder...

I'm perfectly fine with the 6pc bonus, even though I don't like 4pc, and we all know 2pc is pointless. Our lack of "power" without M6 isn't caused by the set... I will repeat it is not the set's fault. Doesn't matter you agree or not... I'm trying to tell you the truth.

We have 2 major problems after RoS

The removal of the currency trade between Hatred vs Discipline

The addition of cooldown (cd) based skills
... and the need to have cooldown reduction (cdr)


These problem exist on day one of the RoS release. And it's getting worse each patch. My post don't get a lot of reader as I'm a poor writer. But the problem can only be solved if we see a patch note that includes several overhaul to our skills.

Increasing the damage number on each skill can only do very little, so little it doesn't even lure you into using it. I'm a skill first... and item last kind of player. I value our skill system more than a lot of other players. And I firmly believe our problem can only be solved by changing our skills.

Examples:

  • Hatred Generator need to generate more Hatred
    • 3 -> 4
      4 -> 6
      and... please don't make everything fire...

    I can still get 20-30 Hatred/sec but must use HPoMY and a 6/attack Generator.

  • Discipline Skill (purplish blue) need to cost Discipline and not cooldowns.

    • /\// Defense
      Smoke Screen
      cost: 14 Discipline
      Vanish behind a wall of smoke, becoming momentarily invisible for 3 seconds. The smoke is capable of absorbing all incoming damage for 1 second.

      /\// Hunting
      Companion
      cost: 20 Discipline

      Preparation
      cost: 45 discipline
      Instantly restore 30 Discipline, but lose Discipline regeneration for the next 45 seconds.
      etc.


    Further more... I think it will be to our advantage if we destroy those item that remove the disicpline cost of our skills... like the new danetta 2pc and shadow 4pc because they remove the need to have Discipline.
    Haha, because we're too busy campaigning for nerfs to our own builds and in the meantime, wizards as usual have their !@#$ together and just got their channeling spells ap cost nerf reverted. We only have ourselves to blame. As much as I hate to think that Blizzard listens to complaints, a 30 page thread is pretty hard to ignore. I can't even be bothered bumping my own thread there anymore, DH have no lobbying base.

    Anyway, theres no reason we can't get buffs to our other builds without nerving M6 at the same time I've always said, build balance isn't a zero sum game. There are some people with reasonable reasons for nerfing M6 but the complaints from the rest basically boil down to "I don't like the playstyle/my special snowflake build isn't as good so I'm not happy." Like I said, it's just cutting off the nose to spite the face.
    No one can ever agree on anything.
    +1. OP start a thread in PTR and I support.

    Edit: Also I m happy for Wiz to get Blizz to revert on their decision on initial cost.
    07/03/2014 10:39 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
    Preparation
    cost: 45 discipline
    Instantly restore 30 Discipline, but lose Discipline regeneration for the next 45 seconds.


    how does that even make any sense?
    When it comes down to it I think complaining about subjective things like M6 playstyle is unproductive at best and plain spoilt at worse. Every class has that one or two dominant builds and if you dont like those, well tough luck. Somehow i never see this in other class forums, where are all the "Holy Shotgun is boring" and things like that?

    It's like nitpicking about which brand of mineral water you like the best when you dont even have proper running water in your house.The best thing you can do is bring to attention to Blizzard the weak aspects of our class. The more of our core problems that get fixed, the more new builds will emerge and the greater the chance one of them will be to your liking.
    The core game as well as other worthy activities/stuff to do, needs to get fixed first before there's any sort of balance that can be achieved when it comes to playing in a min/maxed encouraged mindset + environment.

    Also, the Punishment nerf thread was made by a blue, and it's filled with disappointment about the change(nerf) to it, with an enormous amount of essays as to why it should be reverted back and why the change screws with enjoyment of the class and crushes diversity.

    Blues never responded back in that thread.
    07/03/2014 10:39 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
    Today... I noticed...

    Monk, Barb, and Monk all got some new information release, for good or bad. They get blue response. Us are still in the dark. I would blame ourselves especially those that seek to nerf the set power of Marauder...

    I'm perfectly fine with the 6pc bonus, even though I don't like 4pc, and we all know 2pc is pointless. Our lack of "power" without M6 isn't caused by the set... I will repeat it is not the set's fault. Doesn't matter you agree or not... I'm trying to tell you the truth.

    We have 2 major problems after RoS

    The removal of the currency trade between Hatred vs Discipline

    The addition of cooldown (cd) based skills
    ... and the need to have cooldown reduction (cdr)


    These problem exist on day one of the RoS release. And it's getting worse each patch. My post don't get a lot of reader as I'm a poor writer. But the problem can only be solved if we see a patch note that includes several overhaul to our skills.

    Increasing the damage number on each skill can only do very little, so little it doesn't even lure you into using it. I'm a skill first... and item last kind of player. I value our skill system more than a lot of other players. And I firmly believe our problem can only be solved by changing our skills.

  • Hatred Generator need to generate more Hatred
    • 3 -> 4
      4 -> 6
      and... please don't make everything fire...

    I can still get 20-30 Hatred/sec but must use HPoMY and a 6/attack Generator.

  • Discipline Skill (purplish blue) need to cost Discipline and not cooldowns.

    • /\// Defense
      Smoke Screen
      cost: 14 Discipline
      Vanish behind a wall of smoke, becoming momentarily invisible for 3 seconds. The smoke is capable of absorbing all incoming damage for 1 second.

      /\// Hunting
      Companion
      cost: 20 Discipline

      Preparation
      cost: 45 discipline
      Instantly restore 30 Discipline, but lose Discipline regeneration for the next 45 seconds.
      etc.


    Further more... I think it will be to our advantage if we destroy those item that remove the disicpline cost of our skills... like the new danetta 2pc and shadow 4pc because they remove the need to have Discipline.


    How is the DHs lack of power without the M6 set not the cause of the M6 set? That's like saying my defenselessness against a man armed with a pistol isn't the pistol's fault; I should have a pistol.

    I realize the comparison is silly, so please let me explain further.

    The central problem with M6 is the circumvention of the resource model. This means there is virtually nothing that can be done to equalize non-M6 setups, since they're limited by Hatred. I've yet to see a single reasonable suggestion outside of turning SM4 into *gag* ANOTHER pet build that would also circumvent the resource system, which is essentially the same play style.

    To refer back to my earlier "analogy," lets say we're playing a shooter: both players have infinite ammo, but one has to reload after 6 shots. It takes 12 shots to get a kill.

    The solutions you're proposing are analogous to allowing the disadvantaged player to reload faster, but unless the reload time is a short as the time between shots, the disadvantaged player will never be on equal footing.

    M6 creates a similar scenario, and is exacerbated by the ability to throw down multiple sentries with out any "reload time."

    This is my reasoning, and others might share my thoughts on why M6 needs a second look.
    07/04/2014 12:24 AMPosted by Cameo
    +1. OP start a thread in PTR and I support.

    Edit: Also I m happy for Wiz to get Blizz to revert on their decision on initial cost.


    I have one...
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13271237831?page=1

    should I rewrite?

    And I edited this thread.. I missed wiz and had monk twice. Maybe I'm just tired...
    To take your analogy further, if you dont have a pistol and only have a lousy knife, you go indoors and shank him with that knife when he comes around the corner. You dont bring a knife to an (open air) gunfight of course, thats your error not recognizing your advantages and disadvantages and adapting.

    If the gun that needs to reload does more damage, or has some other perk like less scatter or longer range, then they would be balanced as long as the player takes the initiative to force engagements where their gun is at an advantage. Got a sniper rifle? Go camp in some god forsaken corner. Got a shotgun? You abuse tight spaces and take the fight to them.

    This is precisely why M6 only became a talking point with 2.1, back on live people consider the full gamut of activities, CA Spam has more upfront burst damage which makes it useful in groups, M6 for solo rifts, mobile builds for bounties, etc.

    Somehow people only care about greater rifts now. Of course the reason is obvious, I'm aware thats where all the rewards are and the thing blizzard is focusing on, and this is their fault for digging that hole for themselves with only one endgame activity.

    It's all about that asymmetrical balance.

    There are many more factors to balance builds around other than against the ideal M6 case with 5 sentries firing. CA still has more upfront damage but falls behind after 5 seconds, Danetta setups have comparatively !@#$ damage but superior mobility. When you only gauge builds in one setting (greater rifts), of course you're gonna see imbalance everywhere. Thats like a shooter with only open field maps, surprise surprise only one kind of gun will be op, guess which?
    i dont know why we dont have a single feed-back thread that stays on the first page in the ptr forum.

    maybe it's because the thread-creator of the DH Feedback thread wrote it like "Feed-Back" and you wont find it with the search function by typing "demon hunter feedback"

    i dont get it why dh is always ignored by blues. there are so many silly threads in general forums and even some class forums (barb, sader, wd) that get blue responses. we get nothing.

    even if one thinks more deeply and puts some rather simple suggestions - no word. not a hint that they are even reading things we write. its the same in the eu forums ...

    you know, every time we buff our generators and spenders, we buff marauders. even a marauder can use a generator-spender cycle. not as effective as a non-marauder, but he can do it and be pretty efficient with it (doing it with this one now: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Dunkelvieh-2742/hero/8640869 )

    so, we either need to nerf M6 back to where the cooldowns were global for all sentrys (2 would still add a tremendous power, because if done right those two will allow us to never have a icd wasted) while at the same time we buff spenders and generators alike

    or

    we need to get huge buffs to legendary powers, procs (maybe the gems that we dont see now will really change something?) and our other class sets that will not benefit m6 (i'm looking at shadow set here, m6 cant even get the 2pc shadow bonus!).

    i made some suggestions to S2/4 here: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11042694743?page=2#31 but with the huge vengeance cooldown, we actually need 83% cdr to have it permanently on. so we'd also need a vengeance change to get to a good power level without m6

    i think m6 is fine. it is supposed to be "end game" in 2.06 and its supposed to be strong. so strong that we can clear t6 with no big problems if the items are close to "BiS" (as far as that goes with m6)
    so the other options are crap. there are many that are good for up to t3, several that are good for t4/5 but none that rival m6 in t6.
    07/04/2014 12:31 AMPosted by TianZi
    how does that even make any sense?

    It doesn't... I'm glad someone pickup on that.

    You can't restore the same resource if its part of the cost, which is also the fundamental flaw of APoC. We don't have that problem because we need to use hatred for discipline and discipline for hatred. So some skills will still have cooldown, unless preparation is going to cost hatred.
    other classes have their !@#$ together because their problems are simple.

    "boohoo we don't do enough damage"
    "wah increased resource costs for no reason"
    "our class exists solely to EP and rimeheart things"

    DH problems are more complicated.

    people are upset that preparation-punishment is getting nerfed, but what they're really upset about is the hatred/disc system. why do we need so much more resource than the other classes to do damage? why don't we have hatred on crit like wizards do? or tons of hatred regeneration like WD? why are our hatred generators so weak? why does it take a hilariously OP set that essentially removes resource costs to make this class playable in t6?

    nobody asks those questions.

    as far as the player base is concerned, the class is just fine. except for the prep-punishment nerf, which is totally not cool and we'll never stop crying about it. also, we can't understand why anyone would want M6 to get nerfed even though it's basically impossible to balance around.
    @Trache

    05/10/2014 08:32 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
    None of the Spike Trap deal more damage than Sentry and its aoe is stationary (within 8 yards) where as Sentry has 45 yards shot distance and 35 yards chain distance and the damage aoe changes by the rune. Spike Trap also last 30 sec on the map, but it does not deal damage more than 3 times.

    Second, I want to change the delay in these 2 skills.

    Sentry should not have a cooldown. It needs an unbeatable arm/re-arm time like Spike Trap. I suggest 3 seconds but Sentry now attack once every second with 100% piercing bolts.


    You want re-load time. We had the re-load time on the "bugged" version.

    And I will repeat. The problem is not M6. Its the way how sentries are build.

    07/03/2014 01:41 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
    Sentry cost 30 Hatred, you regen 5/sec with the bat = 6 sec wait = reset on cooldown on sentry. The only thing you worry in that build is how much time you need to wait for the sentry, which completely removes the need to have either Hatred or Discipline.


    The sentries are costless... that's why you can find players not using any generators and run around or hide away to wait of the sentry to "re-load"

    Destroying the current M6 affix will do nothing. The sentry's damage is based on your DH. If your DH is weak it will be weak. And even weaker because you can't multiple yourself and deal damage with infinite Hatred.

    The cost of the sentry need to be readjust. And even better if many runes are changed. I suggest it go back to discipline cost, either 6-10 discipline.

    I would even increase the damage on all sentry to 330% and make the bolts come with 100% chance to pierce targets. Impaling Bolt will be rename back to Vigilant Watcher and these sentries will focus attacking same target as you. But it can only do that with the default bolts.
    07/04/2014 02:46 AMPosted by D2MX
    people are upset that preparation-punishment is getting nerfed, but what they're really upset about is the hatred/disc system. why do we need so much more resource than the other classes to do damage? why don't we have hatred on crit like wizards do? or tons of hatred regeneration like WD? why are our hatred generators so weak? why does it take a hilariously OP set that essentially removes resource costs to make this class playable in t6?


    I don't follow this...

    I rather ask, why is APoC still in the game... They took it off barb... why is it still on wiz?

    Witch Docs resource is as scarce as ours... but you know what.. Those guy appreciate their resource affix on item, on set, and on active & passive skills. How many DHs you find in you friend list stack +1.xx Hatred/sec on weapon, quiver, and/or cloak. It's very hard to get decent +Hatred/sec on weapons, but I do have them. The affix that docs have dhs don't is their ability to gain mana on kill. Hunters don't need to hit to gain Hatred. You can and you should shoot as you walk.

    Having 2 resource was an advantage

    Unfortunately, the current dev team doesn't like it and turn the table towards cd/cdr and removed all our Discipline -> Hatred conversion. We used to be able to spent Discipline using Smoke Screen, Shadow Power, Preparation, Companion, Mark-ME with sentry to gain Hatred. Those are gain, but need to return.
    07/03/2014 10:39 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
    Monk, Barb, and Wiz all got some new information release, for good or bad. They get blue response. Us are still in the dark. I would blame ourselves especially those that seek to nerf the set power of Marauder...


    Realistically asking for a nerf has nothing to do with it and you're just pointing the finger. Asking for a nerf or a buff is a discussion on internal class balance and is absolutely meaningful. Also absolutely everything you just listed has been in a constructive thread before and nothing has been addressed, if anything its been made worse.

    It's not like we've never created a thread with constructive criticism only to have it fall on deaf ears. The development team only take things the MVPs say seriously and every single one of the threads you've mentioned were either started or supported by an MVP. For some reason green text is more meaning full then white and we will never have that issue solved.

    Go a head and created your thread, I'll support/contribute, but if they can't respond to any of the multiple threads we have going, even the one they created, I think you're being delusional if you think they're magically going to start responding because you made a list in a pretty format. The last time we had a blue respond to one of our threads, the spec was nerfed. The Monks, Wizs and Barbs have always been heard out thoroughly and there suggestions taken seriously because of the MVPs that submit the claims, I really don't mean to be offensive here, but its been the same trend since the start. So I'm sceptical that it will change.
    TheTias, our only saviour xD
    Ive been writing my review for 3 days so far, and its just much longer than I expected. If you haven't notice yet, but it appears that blizzard wants players to rely on class items/sets for power (i.e. game changing legendaries).

    M6 is our only real game changing set that hugely effects on how we output our damage (even tho its plain stupid). Nat's RoV is cool, but it isn't game changing enough. It needs more. Shadow set isn't really game changing (in with regards on how we output our damage).

    Majority of our skills are fine tbh. We need more game changing legendaries~Cooldown doesn't seem like its something we can escape from. Every top tier spec I've seen from other classes need cooldown to perform smoothly. Not sure if its intended, or its just a fact that we can't escape. I agree that our discipline isn't being used enough, other than for smoke screen and maybe vault when not using danetta's set.

    However CDR isn't the reason for this. Its simply because we don't need much defense. Why bother to use defensive skill if it doesn't effect how we output our damage? If you lack in defense, get more toughness and done (i.e. out gear it). Why sacrifice a skill for defense instead of offense? This is exactly what is happening. Players don't feel a need to use a defensive skill if they can simply gear their way out & use different skill to increase kill speed.
    07/04/2014 02:23 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
    07/04/2014 12:24 AMPosted by Cameo
    +1. OP start a thread in PTR and I support.

    Edit: Also I m happy for Wiz to get Blizz to revert on their decision on initial cost.


    I have one...
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13271237831?page=1

    should I rewrite?

    And I edited this thread.. I missed wiz and had monk twice. Maybe I'm just tired...


    Agreed with most of the stuff you wrote and I think one of the blue must have read it. The only thing is some will say TLDR. Any thank.s
    07/03/2014 06:39 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    the damage these abilities do with now scale upward over time, rewarding you for spending additional time channeling.

    If this were implemented into RF it would be cool.

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