[Review] - Monks in 2.1 (PTR3)

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+1 As always ty Druin :)
07/24/2014 11:43 AMPosted by Xuen
My patch:
All Generators now have a base IAS of "X%" amount.
Spenders have been doubled.
6pc Raiment no longer uses DS, Generators/Spenders have a chance to cast the damage instead.
Jawbreaker changed for Physical Monks.
Shenlong's Fist set now fires an attack depending the skill rune used, does "X%" ele dmg to ALL surrounding enemies and does "X%" overtime. OR Serpent like attack comes out and chains enemies since, ya know, Shenlong is a dragon. (DBZ)
STI now grants a flat IAS increase. (if the generators doesn't work out).
Sunwuko clones now effectively chooses a target when summoned and rushes to the target before exploding.
Animation for SSS has been sped up.
SSS AoE rune has been increased by a certain percent to make it useful.
All passives that included dodge have been reworked.

07/24/2014 01:07 PMPosted by Xuen
I've been saying this on every Raiment thread in hopes it will stick but a simple thing like Generators/Spenders have a chance to proc the set, of course once they get the toughness/mitigation under control.

07/15/2014 03:15 AMPosted by Xuen
Juggling some ideas around for 6pc Raiment rework, it's still underwhelming in it's current state. Note: All these are intended to scale w/ +Lightning Dmg.

1. Revert it to the old version with FoT buff and buff the damage from 100% to 2000%-3000%
2. Revert it to the old version but after 3-5 hits of the main spirit generator it releases lightning around the monk. Approx. 1000-2000%
(lower dmg since Generator is faster than 6sec DS)
3. Spirit Spenders release the extra lightning damage. 1000%-3000%? (This is very bland and lazy way out.)
4. Lightning Conductor from LTK (monk or initial targets), Thunderbolts from Pillar (maybe tesla type effect off the pillar itself) , Chain Lightning from TR?
Utilization of Secondaries.
5. When DS connects to the first target, it hits/chains enemies, kinda like a SSS but to the targets instead of at random. Still does it's max damage if no other targets are present.
6. EP causes the target to errupt in lightning causing damage to itself and other enemies nearby for X% damage. (This would help sell usage of EP after it's nerf)

Personally, I like #4 the most since it doesn't force the player to use just 1 skill but 3 other skills that the player would normally use and useable whenever spirit is avail.

Also the set is like the Firebird's for Monks so it should at the very least have some more to the 4pc or just a static buff plz.

I have an obsession with lightning, sue me :p
The problem I see now is they seem to misunderstand what is asked for, for example the increase to AS. Omg, they finally get we're supposed to be fast but it comes at the cost of using AS rather than adding in base. If they aren't going to fix perma-Epiph or DS 8sec(both requires some CDR) then giving up CC/CD/CDR for AS is not happening. More spirit = bigger spirit pool rather than increase spirit gain on generators; I do like the bigger pool though. Faster animations, still missing the damage.
Posted by Nevalistis
It's too good, to the point it feels mandatory for all Monks to use.
The quote is in regards of DS, you'd think they'd look into mitigation as to why DS is used.....Also, they noticed DS/EP felt mandatory but Epiphany:Desert Shroud doesn't hint that toughness/mit is really terrible to the point where a lot of monks use it?
I'll give them the dodge passives reworked, honestly thought they were going to leave it for another patch.
08/08/2014 01:27 PMPosted by Fahita
Either that... OR capping GR mob damage.. which some people seem to hate for some reason.. even though it solves the problem entirely and completely removes the need for defensive power creep.

My opinion on this, not that I know how to solve the problem:

This cap trivializes the progression to one dimension - damage, and possibly obsoleting the defensive "infinitely" scaling gems.
Hail Hydra!
I still do not understand how the use of Dashing Strike (DS) as the proc vehicle for the 6 piece bonus of the 1000 Storms set is still supported by Blizzard. On a couple of occasions they have specifically outlined that they do not like the idea of using defensive skills for offensive purposes:

-DH Trail of Cinders nerf from back in vanilla I believe (it was a bug that allowed Trail of Cinders to do so much damage, but the bowling ball vault spam DH was still a thing for a bit until they fixed it)
-DH redesign of Preparation: Punishment

Using DS as the proc mechanism, which is primarily a defensive ability, is completely at odds with these previous statements, and it makes Blizzard seem a bit hypocritical.

However, the lack of communication about the current iterations of the Monk sets makes me hope that there are some large scale set re-designs coming our way. Or it could mean that they think our sets are fine as is, and we are doomed forever... I hope it is not the latter case :D
I have read everything that you've written down Druin and I have to say it was like you were reading my mind when you wrote this .

I dont think that they will redesign the sets... maybe buffing or calibrating the damage is possible like you said.

I want to emphasize more at the Raiment set.
The Raiment set requires 6 items in your inventory to work + The Jawbreaker.

The set gives 500 dex (which is good like most other sets that give a specific attribute), 15% lightning damage (15 ? really ? the set is called 1000 freaking strorms for a reason, it must be the most powerfull lighting base set in the game, 15 is not enough), and 3000% dmg when using Dashing strike in 15 radius aoe).

Now... using the set only, without Jawbreaker is like trying to cut steel with a wooden saw, it won't happen.
Jawbreaker allows you to use DS again if you move !!!30 - 35!!! away and hit a monster or object.

Do you the problem here? 30 -35 yards in like 80 -85 % in rifts is way too hard to use. While Barbs are on steroids using the Raekor's ability every nanosecond, i have to use DS at something run for 3 seconds and then dash back again.

If you reduce the distance that the jawbreaker procs the Raiment we may have something good here like 15 - 20 yards.

Also, the 4 piece set does not feel very powerful or interesting as Druin mentioned. It should be buffed at least to 30-35 % to notice any difference in eDPS.

The 6 piece set is good but i have to say that the damage is not there yet... I don't how much it should be buffed because it needs testing.

Thats all from me at the moment :)
Excellent post. I was going to write up some comments about the stat weightings and how the new focus on attack speed created issues given the current requirement for CDR%, CHC% and CD%, then I hit refresh and saw your last points.

I would like to discuss SSS quickly though. I agree with the need for SSS to have an AOE baseline for all runes and that the cooldown is too long. However, I believe even if the skill were to get these two abilities, it would still need additional damage. I've spent most of this expansion trying to make a SSS monk work and the only way the skill is currently viable is if you use Mythic Rhythm, Blinding Flash/Faith in the Light and Inner Sanctuary/Forbidden Palace.

These skills take some setting up to use and you especially have to ensure that you don't utilize your Mythic Rhythm proc with a Cyclone Strike before you hit SSS, as Mythic Rhythm doesn't have an icon (please Blizzard for the love of god, give us an icon). I don't consider this an issue though as ensuring you have enough CDR and timing your skills together in order to obtain better burst is an interesting model. My issue is in the fact that this needs to be done in order to ensure that you have adequate damage, not good damage.

If I'm going to utilize two defensive cooldowns to gain adequate damage for SSS that's a poor design. SSS as a cooldown based attack works well with Mythic Rhythm and should do adequate damage together. Then if I decide to utilize those active skills for their damage increase instead of their defensive bonus when I'm essentially invulnerable anyways, it's a choice. A damage increase of ~60% combined with a cooldown reduction would put the skill in a much better place and would create a stronger combination between Flow of Eternity, Sunwuko and Madstone since the multiple clone bug from Madstone and SSS was fixed.
I guess we've given up on getting Tempest Rush cost down / damage up / etc with the latest PTR iteration? >_<
08/08/2014 11:14 AMPosted by Druin

(also feel free to link / copy-paste your set design ideas into this thread guys ... can't hurt!)

Here's one of my suggestions that I've been trying to float around:

2pc: Inner Sanctuary now follows your movement
4pc: Cooldown of focus skills are reduced by 1 second every time an enemy dies within the radius of Inner Sancutary
6pc: Inner Sanctuary gains the Forbidden Palace rune

Focus skills are: SSS, Mystic Ally, Epiphany.


This set is to give monks superior mitigation by utilizing IS. By making IS follow the monk, rather than be fixed to the ground, this improves the monks survival just as much as Epi: Desert Shroud, which is considered mandatory in higher GR.

As you accumulate more pieces the set becomes more offensively oriented and provides DPS by allowing you to use SSS and Epiphany more frequently and depending on which ally you chose, you can either gain more dps or more mitigation.

This is pretty much an all-purpose set, not overly defensive or offensive in nature.
I guess we've given up on getting Tempest Rush cost down / damage up / etc with the latest PTR iteration? >_<

Dav, I find your lack of reading comprehension skills disturbing ...

08/08/2014 11:14 AMPosted by Druin
TR has always done terrible damage and now it does terrible damage AND costs too much spirit for any non-max CDR setup to sustain.

08/08/2014 11:14 AMPosted by Druin
TR needs a 2.0x to 3.0x multiplier or a 1.5 to 2.0x multiplier and 50% reduction in cost

"Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing at all" ~ HK
Druin, the happy monk
dont understand why you bother anymore Druin, its clear they don't care about feedback from players. If they did monk would be far from what they are right now. you can say whatever you want but the fact is monk was poor except from one ability (ep) before ptr and after ptr and changes we are actually worse off. The dev can say they are looking into the class and they are reading what is written on forums etc, but monks has been broken for so long, so after a certain amount of time you actually have to prove that you are working on fixing the problem (as they are trying to convince us that they are), if not we all can see its a lie.
08/08/2014 11:14 AMPosted by Druin
There are hundreds if not thousands of suggestions for these two sets that are better than mine. The monk community has, by some sort of wizardry, remained constructive despite our situation and this has resulted in massive amounts of content suggestions. I am not that great a designer so read them please.

Please devs, please.
please, please repost this in the PTR-Forums. From my experience the CMs are barely reading the class-forums...(@CMs, you have now the opportunity to prove me wrong :D)

Fun thing: nothing, literally nothing of the stuff you wrote there is actually new. It is all long-known stuff. Hell, I don't understand why the Devs are not trying to do bigger tweaks just to try how it would be. This is the PTR. This is the place where you can test stuff. Jeez, they even nerfed LTK, I mean, wtf? Its not like that skill is OP in ANY way.

It is so frustrating to repeat the same stuff over and over and over again when a new patch hits the servers, were they buffed a skill by like 50% weapon damage - wow, this will make everything better! At least they didn't buff TR this patch again... o.0

I wrote this ( http://eu.battle.net/d3/de/forum/topic/11043444800 ) at the beginnig of the PTR, and everything regarding the damage output of our class and the sets could be copy-pasted because nothing actually changed to be a meaningful changed. I should rather write that the situation got worse because they nerfed LTK. What. the. fck. I still don't understand this, and I think I never will.

PS: just realized I once translated it...lol: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13273197578#1

And from what I have seen, we never got a reply for this thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12879077914?page=1. In my linked thread above, I complained about it (I got a little bit salty...not a big deal tho, I just wondered if the Devs actually play the monk-class), the CM from our forums PM'd m the next day on skype and told my that they actually read it.

Then: WHY DID WE NEVER GOT AN ANSWER? We got never an answer to a thread that was directed at the CMs and Devs, a thread that made clear we want to have some kind of feedback from the Devs, why they are doing stuff, what we think about it etc. Not a paragraph like this:
05/02/2014 01:31 PMPosted by Grimiku
Hello, everyone

I wanted to make sure that you all know that we're keeping an eye on this thread. I don't have anything new to share about whats down the road as far as Monks go, but we're certainly keeping an eye on things. Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback, and we really appreciate all of the constructive discussions.

...which literally means nothing.

> Explain us, what you want to do!
> Give us the feeling that you at least care about the things we write, that you read it, that you care about the monks out there who want their class to be fixed!
> Explain us, why you don't just buff LTK and WoL so they do meaningful damage!
> Make a stream with Druin and Don Vu (and Jaetch...lol) like the one Druin did w/ Travis Day during the RoS-Beta

Honestly, I have the fear that one day, Blizz will say, "f*ck it, we'll release it as it is, to the monks out there: http://i.imgur.com/hKscixu.gif , cya nerds!"
- and the monk will be still as weak as he is on both Live and the PTR.

And finishing my little rant: I don't like the direction where the monk tends to atm. The best way to generate ressources is clearly passive generation by Epiphany/Insight, Exalted Soul and SW/Inner Storm, you end up with (ridiculous) 57 spirit/sec.
How are you supposed to get similar values when you don't want to use passive generation or CDR at all?
You can get something similar with FoT/Q and > 2 APS, but having > 2 APS is not normal anymore, and even if you get theoretically the same amount of spirit/sec, spirit-reg is much more reliable than generating it w/ a primary, since it works always. Even if you are CC'd you'll get the 57 spirit/sec, it is such a superior way to get ressources...damn. I don't like it.

It would have been way better to reduce spirit-reg back to where it was and lowering the costs instead, which would create a way bigger diversity since you could choose between "active" and "passive" generation of spirit. As it stand now, I think that passive generation is superior to using your primarys.

That all being said, Druin, as always a big +1 from me.

I guess we've given up on getting Tempest Rush cost down / damage up / etc with the latest PTR iteration? >_<

The should revert it and only increase it for "Flurry".
And dammit, make it giving 25% Movementspeed again... :(
08/08/2014 11:14 AMPosted by Druin

(also feel free to link / copy-paste your set design ideas into this thread guys ... can't hurt!)

Some Monk set design insanity happened in this thread:
08/08/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Yesaul
My opinion on this, not that I know how to solve the problem:

This cap trivializes the progression to one dimension - damage, and possibly obsoleting the defensive "infinitely" scaling gems.

I really don't see any other option really.

And the only infinitely scaling defensive gem is Taeguk, Moratorium only increases the length of time that the damage Ticks on you... which I suppose is a form of reducing damage over time because it decreases each tic you take. But still, the flat % armor from Taeguk is certainly more impactful, I think.. especially with how GRs scale.

All that being said... GRs scale in such a way that I don't think they have much choice but to cap it at some reasonable level. Our gear doesn't scale, only legendary gems do. And those don't upgrade nearly fast enough.

If they overhauled the gem upgrading process.. maybe.. but even then.. that forces the requirement of Taeguk on everyone, on every build, regardless of if it fits the build or not.
Just saying, TR isn't in the general monk conversation this past week, and unmodified this past PTR so can only conclude what is currently on PTR will go live >_>
08/08/2014 02:27 PMPosted by Davlok
Just saying, TR isn't in the general monk conversation this past week, and unmodified this past PTR so can only conclude what is currently on PTR will go live >_>

I think we have another month worth of PTR left tbh
My wish is that they would make monk generators be permanently on. They will simply go off whenever in the range of an enemy. Yet you still retain some mobility and every activated skill is on top of the base damage of the generator.
08/08/2014 11:14 AMPosted by Druin
Monk's toughness and sustain are not in a place that using a gen isn't instant death but it's still WAY harder than not using a gen.
This means the reward for using a Gen needs to be higher to compensate the monk for having to stop what they are doing.

Also worth noting that ground Effects from Elites are specifically designed to make you move around to avoid them.
Monk and Barb don't benefit from repositioning as much as other classes because resource regeneration doesn't happen at this time. And Barbs have variety of Fury-boost skills, but Monks not.

Which leads to need for Spirit gens to be even more rewarding
I never log in to the forum, this is the first time in....dunno, 1 year? But I had to thank you Druin, your feedback is always a joy to read for a Monk lover. Here's hoping your suggestions get heard this time, next PTR patch might be the last one. Set changes + damage buffs would really make an enormous difference.

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