Pet constantly dying.

Witch Doctor
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09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Hey everyone. We’re in the process of doing a review of Rift Guardian abilities and extremely damaging monster abilities in regards to the amount pets take. Our philosophy on pet survivability can be summed up as follows:

Pets should be roughly as survivable as the player. There’s a lot to this statement so let me clarify a bit:
  • Pets should scale with your survivability stats. They currently scale with most of your stats but not all of them. This is being worked on.
  • Pets should derive their Toughness from yours, and if you skip out on it, your pets’ survivability should be noticeably lower as a result. On the flip side, they should be noticeably tougher if you’ve increased your own Toughness. You shouldn’t skimp on Toughness just because you have pets.
  • We don’t want pets to be invulnerable tanks. In the live environment pets are too squishy, but even after our review is done in a future patch, if your pets are still dying a lot, we want you to be looking to increase your Toughness, which will consequently increase your pets' survivability.

To work towards the first goal, Pets should take reduced damage based on how avoidable the monster attack normally is for a player. This is done instead of giving pets AI to run away from damaging attacks, which would cause them to lose out on DPS time. These monster attacks exist in a spectrum but roughly fall into 3 categories:
  • Full damage to pets - Basic melee/weak projectile attacks, not expected to be always avoided by a player.
  • Reduced damage to pets - Special attacks such as fireballs, which typically deal more damage than a basic attack, are pretty bright and visible, and can sometimes be avoided by the player. Good example are Perdition’s volley attack or Agnidox’s fireballs.
  • Drastically reduced damage to pets - Persistent AoEs for which the player is intended to move out of quickly or highly-telegraphed attacks for which the player is intended to avoid altogether. Examples are Thunderstorm monster affix, Mallet Lord’s arm attack, or Morlu meteors.

We’re not at our goal yet but are actively working towards it. Though the vast majority of monsters abilities in the game already follow these guidelines, we’ve identified a number of monsters abilities (e.g. Mallet Lord’s arm attack and some others mentioned in this thread and elsewhere) which don’t, and we will be addressing them in a future patch.


scale with your survivability stats ?
increase your Toughness ?

may i ask one important thing , what if the WD survivability relay on CDR and SW ?
do CDR count as our survivability stats which scale to pet toughness ?

BTW , the faster killing the more survivability to the WD......so offensive stats should scale to pet toughness too
<3 TLDR white text
I'm happy to finally see an update on this matter. I do have to admit though, that I'm a little skittish at your solution. Even at 10 million toughness, I often find myself turned into a fine red mist before I have any time to react in T6. Let alone upper echelon Grifts. And it seems to be from a select few monster types in elite form who have the ability to spam their affixes in rapid succession.

I agree the main problem right now is the AOE attacks that you listed, but there are others and I fear this proposed fix won't address the issue in its entirety.
09/12/2014 06:13 PMPosted by VKEI

scale with your survivability stats ?
increase your Toughness ?

may i ask one important thing , what if the WD survivability relay on CDR and SW ?
do CDR count as our survivability stats which scale to pet toughness ?

BTW , the faster killing the more survivability to the WD......so offensive stats should scale to pet toughness too

This is a good point relating to how strict toughness stats don't parallel with a player's character's real survivability. I'll toss in stun and freeze effects, and various others of that nature.

Another I'd like to mention is healing. Healing isn't reflected in toughness stats but is absolutely directly relevant for a character staying alive for a lot of builds(most, probably).
09/12/2014 04:07 PMPosted by Thorgrim
And how does your philosophy tie into the sentries for the DH? I have a well equipped DH, as well as a well equipped WD, and I'd like to know why my sentries are invincible to everything while my pets on my WD are not?


You honestly don't see the difference in a WD pet and a stationary sentry?
09/12/2014 07:21 PMPosted by GunnersDream
09/12/2014 04:07 PMPosted by Thorgrim
And how does your philosophy tie into the sentries for the DH? I have a well equipped DH, as well as a well equipped WD, and I'd like to know why my sentries are invincible to everything while my pets on my WD are not?


You honestly don't see the difference in a WD pet and a stationary sentry?


Obviously you missed the point, which is evident in the little part of my post you quoted. Try reading a post in its entirety first before quoting it with nativity.

I see a large difference; however, since they're considered "pets" then the WD "pets" should get the same treatment in survivability. If not, stop calling them pets or allowing them to benefit from pet related bonuses like that of the Tasker and Theo or Enforcer gem. Being able to toss your sentry around a corner and hide without having to worry at all about it being destroyed is absolutely absurd when a WD pet will get killed by an enemy fart in higher Greater Rifts. If you're going to have pets in the game, put them all on an even playing field, especially when the WD's main purpose is to summon things and use them for battle.

Comprehension, friend, as not everyone wants to jump ship and toss all our stuff on a Wizard just because a bunch of others are doing it.
Yeah exactly, and i don't fully agree on the WD needing to increase toughness to increase the pets. Why is it so imba with classes, barb can go tank and full dps now both with a vile ward that increases dmg by ~31% in the charge build, so bull. Why not give a legendary gear for WD... oh..um , 20% dmg increase for every enemy hit by pestilence lol what a joke. Atleast WD would need it more, being 1 shotted.
09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Hey everyone. We’re in the process of doing a review of Rift Guardian abilities and extremely damaging monster abilities in regards to the amount pets take. Our philosophy on pet survivability can be summed up as follows:

Pets should be roughly as survivable as the player. There’s a lot to this statement so let me clarify a bit:
  • Pets should scale with your survivability stats. They currently scale with most of your stats but not all of them. This is being worked on.
  • Pets should derive their Toughness from yours, and if you skip out on it, your pets’ survivability should be noticeably lower as a result. On the flip side, they should be noticeably tougher if you’ve increased your own Toughness. You shouldn’t skimp on Toughness just because you have pets.
  • We don’t want pets to be invulnerable tanks. In the live environment pets are too squishy, but even after our review is done in a future patch, if your pets are still dying a lot, we want you to be looking to increase your Toughness, which will consequently increase your pets' survivability.

To work towards the first goal, Pets should take reduced damage based on how avoidable the monster attack normally is for a player. This is done instead of giving pets AI to run away from damaging attacks, which would cause them to lose out on DPS time. These monster attacks exist in a spectrum but roughly fall into 3 categories:
  • Full damage to pets - Basic melee/weak projectile attacks, not expected to be always avoided by a player.
  • Reduced damage to pets - Special attacks such as fireballs, which typically deal more damage than a basic attack, are pretty bright and visible, and can sometimes be avoided by the player. Good example are Perdition’s volley attack or Agnidox’s fireballs.
  • Drastically reduced damage to pets - Persistent AoEs for which the player is intended to move out of quickly or highly-telegraphed attacks for which the player is intended to avoid altogether. Examples are Thunderstorm monster affix, Mallet Lord’s arm attack, or Morlu meteors.

We’re not at our goal yet but are actively working towards it. Though the vast majority of monsters abilities in the game already follow these guidelines, we’ve identified a number of monsters abilities (e.g. Mallet Lord’s arm attack and some others mentioned in this thread and elsewhere) which don’t, and we will be addressing them in a future patch.


Nice! Pet doctors may eventually have a chance! =D

Also, please gives more options to improve pet survivability while active and passive skills. For example, let Zombie Handler buff fetishes' health as well; Fierce Loyalty should make all pets benefit from life regen (or even lift on hit); make skills such as Piranhas, Soul Harvest, Sacrifice, Hex, Horrify, etc have runes that temporary buff pets' toughness, or even heal pet.
I complained about this issue with the pets 4 months ago but I'm glad to finally see someone is paying attention. Hopefully it will make CotA usable at a level higher than GRift 26.
09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Full damage to pets - Basic melee/weak projectile attacks, not expected to be always avoided by a player.


Monsters 'basic' melee or 'weak' projectile attacks in around Grift 35-40 for instance could well two or three shot WDs with standard gears with vit in possible slots without sacrificng too much DPS (i.e. the critical and int stats).

Let's start with projectiles, a rift full of archers, spear-throwing goats, or even Enslaved Nightmares could ruin our runs when barely any of our pets are ranged, even if there's any they are rather ineffective in taking them out on their own.

And melee attacks, 'basic' melee attacks include those by bigger mobs like Entombed Hulk, Executioners and the likes? In higher Grifts, even imps might take out a fetish or two before dying.

Include some reduction or, make Fetish Sycophants ranged, throwing boomerang dagger of sorts since Fetish Sycophants are known to be weaker than their Fetish Army brothers.

09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Reduced damage to pets


09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Good example are Perdition’s volley attack or Agnidox’s fireballs.


Those are bad examples, barely avoidable at close range and they do a lot of damage. We have to worry about ourselves, not our pets when facing those.

09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Drastically reduced damage to pets


Examples are Thunderstorm monster affix, Mallet Lord’s arm attack, or Morlu meteors.


I believe you spelt 'Electrify' wrong.
I have a friend who plays a WD and is always complaining about his pets dying all the time. I just tell him to go with a different build instead of relying on his pets to do all the damage. I mean jez you want the game to do everything for you with little work. WD already do excellent damage build around that and not just your pets. Thats the reason I do not play a WD. If you have to rely on your pets then I just dont see the fun of it.
09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
in regards to the amount pets take


boooo... thought you were nerfing jailer and frozen dot...
So, unless unity can cut the pet damage taken into half ( unity gives us double effective toughness), our pets still cannot survive. Without unity, u can die in 1 shot in GR35+ with 15M toughness.

Even more, DH sentry will not die and can cast far away. They can give up toughness and focus on dps. So that they can complete GR40+ with just 5M toughness...

balanced?
Tip: becareful what you wish for.

After the channelling nightmare in PTR, I can't help but to think there is a very high chance that after the patch (that will come Soon), with the same toughness before and after the patch, your pets will actually be more squishy.....
but why sycophants die 10 times faster than fetish army ? at GR 30+ with 1 hit.... maybe make them immortal like dh sentry so it will be "balanced" in blizzards style - army of 23 fetishes each hitting 30kk and give them aoe dmg -.-
I am slightly confused at something. You said first:

09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Pets should be roughly as survivable as the player. There’s a lot to this statement so let me clarify a bit:
  • Pets should scale with your survivability stats. They currently scale with most of your stats but not all of them. This is being worked on.
  • Pets should derive their Toughness from yours, and if you skip out on it, your pets’ survivability should be noticeably lower as a result. On the flip side, they should be noticeably tougher if you’ve increased your own Toughness. You shouldn’t skimp on Toughness just because you have pets.
  • We don’t want pets to be invulnerable tanks. In the live environment pets are too squishy, but even after our review is done in a future patch, if your pets are still dying a lot, we want you to be looking to increase your Toughness, which will consequently increase your pets' survivability.


Then you said:

09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
To work towards the first goal, Pets should take reduced damage based on how avoidable the monster attack normally is for a player. This is done instead of giving pets AI to run away from damaging attacks, which would cause them to lose out on DPS time. These monster attacks exist in a spectrum but roughly fall into 3 categories:
  • Full damage to pets - Basic melee/weak projectile attacks, not expected to be always avoided by a player.
  • Reduced damage to pets - Special attacks such as fireballs, which typically deal more damage than a basic attack, are pretty bright and visible, and can sometimes be avoided by the player. Good example are Perdition’s volley attack or Agnidox’s fireballs.
  • Drastically reduced damage to pets - Persistent AoEs for which the player is intended to move out of quickly or highly-telegraphed attacks for which the player is intended to avoid altogether. Examples are Thunderstorm monster affix, Mallet Lord’s arm attack, or Morlu meteors.

We’re not at our goal yet but are actively working towards it. Though the vast majority of monsters abilities in the game already follow these guidelines, we’ve identified a number of monsters abilities (e.g. Mallet Lord’s arm attack and some others mentioned in this thread and elsewhere) which don’t, and we will be addressing them in a future patch.


What I am gathering is that you want pet toughness to be approximate to the player, but at the same time, completely different based on the enemies I am facing? Contradictory much? Anyway, I posted about the seriousness of the situation in a thread last month. If you intend to do the prior, then quite possible, pets will be dying faster??? And if it is the later, then you need to overshoot your goal on reduction of damage in order to let things play out, then change as needed. In my opinion, it probably won't be needed though. Once we get into higher greater rift levels, we will be back to this same problem, which is why we recommended invulnerable pets in the first place. A permanent solution to a petty problem.

Also, I want to touch on the subject of pet aoe. Pet doctors are the only class without a substantial aoe build. Heck, I am using the homunculus and sacrifice build, and the amount of aoe is still too weak. One might consider a follower to be more powerful...
What about Electrified affix it's AoE or not? More hits cause more sparks 5 turrets and 6 pets cause wipe field and boss will be unkillable if you make the turrets killable.
09/12/2014 12:03 PMPosted by John Yang
Pets should scale with your survivability stats. They currently scale with most of your stats but not all of them. This is being worked on.
Pets should derive their Toughness from yours, and if you skip out on it, your pets’ survivability should be noticeably lower as a result. On the flip side, they should be noticeably tougher if you’ve increased your own Toughness. You shouldn’t skimp on Toughness just because you have pets.


Thanks John, this sounds pretty good. I would like to ask though: will invulnerability, conferred to player via certain items or set bonuses (BT4, Star of Azkaranth) be factored into this design in any way?
I don't mean that the benefits should be transferred to pets directly, but perhaps certain damage types affecting pets could slide to a different category if the player was wearing itemX.

Some legendary items are designed to supplement or improve toughness indirectly and I'd hate to see those gear choices obviated because they don't benefit pets.
Pet Gem 50% Damage reduce, delay the 2.1 Sycophants cast nerf.
Its a fast and simple way to help, with a hotfix.
If the goal is to make toughness matter, then take a good hard look at electrified/chains vs melee classes in GR30+ and and yourself if toughness matters at all?

These affixes are completely out of line and brick wall you regardless of your toughness or skill.

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