For all the newbs up in here T6 = normal mode

Wizard
09/29/2014 05:59 PMPosted by Mizore
WOH is useless


wouldn't say that since theres vids of ppl doing 34-38 with it. Past that im not sure.
I cant even touch a DH as far as single target grift RG goes, but I will multiply their damage on a 3-10+ mob pack in 3 seconds of ramp up.

15% dmg buff 24/7
30% stronkarms anyone?

Rerolled 7 ias -> armor on my wh. dh tears inc

but alas~ I usually play my crafted zdps monk in 40s+
a: I dont have a dh(nor will i jump on that plebwagon)
b: monk is req
09/30/2014 11:19 AMPosted by Feanor
Well, that fits the archetype perfectly. Robes instead of armor, books instead of shields. Why would you expect a wizard to be tough?


Yes, you are right.
But!
Either you are tough or you do a lot of damage, we are not tough neither we do a lot of damage.
We just do damage during a long period of time and run in circles waiting to refresh it.

09/30/2014 11:19 AMPosted by Feanor
I don't think so. Thing is, standing still not only means you're likely to take more hits, it also means you're not moving forward. It's loses time.

I do not agree that the current playstyle is a poor design. It's flat out better not because we lack pets, it's because the build allows you to increase your eDPS far beyond anything otherwise possible by fighting a much larger number of enemies at once. It's not a question of pets or taking hits. In the GRift setup with scaling monster HP and damage, sooner or later you would reach the point where you can only take a few hits before dying and it takes significant time to kill anything. Always, you will reach such point. At this point, running around and 'doing nothing' will always be the most efficient way to play, pets or no pets.


This build is built around two mechanics that revives you. If you can play at the same level of difficulty as any other class without the 4pc bonus, Unstable anomaly and Illusionist then you got me, but I don't think that you or the 99% of the wizard community can complete a 40Grift without dying a single time, or to express it properly, our progress is tied to dying.

I watch Karvinen's stream. Number one seasonal wizard in the ladder, I have seen him die countless of times and I am sure that dying is not a variable but a constant for us.

We can talk about Blizzard, Hydra, Arcane Orb, Arcane Torrent and many other spells or mechanics. My point stands strong as a whole, even if there are tiny little glimmers of hope here and there.

09/30/2014 11:19 AMPosted by Feanor
And yes, you can't play AT competitive in GRifts. Not because Blizzhydra is too good, because AT's design doesn't fit the required playstile for GRifts. Actually Blizzhydra is only Blizzhyrda because these are the spells that do fit. Firebird doesn't specifically address any of them, they just happen to work the way they need to.


In fact blizzard addressed both of them, giving blizzard a fire rune and hydra a damage boost.
But you are right, AT does not fit Grifts format. On the same page, there is no other element fitting Grifts format.
09/30/2014 02:28 AMPosted by JERBEAR187
if you set ur wiz up better youll kill leets before dh can get 2 sentries out

as for greaters iv used my wiz to replace 1 of the 2 dps slots on a team for grift 40

there comes a point where dh > wiz for dps but its not as extreme as you make it out to be

the average m6 dh doesnt out dps a well put together fb6x


Actually it is extreme as I make it out to be because I don't do solo play. Your build is a very solo spec which requires you to able to kite entire rooms around and requires unity at higher greater rifts.
09/30/2014 02:50 PMPosted by Fede
09/30/2014 11:19 AMPosted by Feanor
Well, that fits the archetype perfectly. Robes instead of armor, books instead of shields. Why would you expect a wizard to be tough?


Yes, you are right.
But!
Either you are tough or you do a lot of damage, we are not tough neither we do a lot of damage.
We just do damage during a long period of time and run in circles waiting to refresh it.


First of all, it's not necessarily a matter of either-or. You can also be a controller, relying on conditions and effects to survive and kill. Which we actually are.

Also, you can't really say we don't deal tons of damage. Yes, it's mostly over-time effects, but it's huge amounts nonetheless.

09/30/2014 02:50 PMPosted by Fede
This build is built around two mechanics that revives you. If you can play at the same level of difficulty as any other class without the 4pc bonus, Unstable anomaly and Illusionist then you got me, but I don't think that you or the 99% of the wizard community can complete a 40Grift without dying a single time, or to express it properly, our progress is tied to dying.


That, again, fits the archetype. We aren't tough, but we're capable of killing stuff, delayed or not. It's only natural that our capabilities lead us into taking greater risks and sometimes dying.

Please note this isn't at all related to the actual build. It's all about the strengths and weaknesses of our class. If you're saying that the Wizard should have different strengths and weaknesses you're saying it should have a different archetype. In this case, we should probably agree to disagree.

In fact blizzard addressed both of them, giving blizzard a fire rune and hydra a damage boost.
But you are right, AT does not fit Grifts format. On the same page, there is no other element fitting Grifts format.


Indeed. But that's only a consequence of how the Wizard and the Greater Rifts were designed.
10/01/2014 01:19 AMPosted by Feanor
09/30/2014 02:50 PMPosted by Fede
...

Yes, you are right.
But!
Either you are tough or you do a lot of damage, we are not tough neither we do a lot of damage.
We just do damage during a long period of time and run in circles waiting to refresh it.


First of all, it's not necessarily a matter of either-or. You can also be a controller, relying on conditions and effects to survive and kill. Which we actually are.

Also, you can't really say we don't deal tons of damage. Yes, it's mostly over-time effects, but it's huge amounts nonetheless.

09/30/2014 02:50 PMPosted by Fede
This build is built around two mechanics that revives you. If you can play at the same level of difficulty as any other class without the 4pc bonus, Unstable anomaly and Illusionist then you got me, but I don't think that you or the 99% of the wizard community can complete a 40Grift without dying a single time, or to express it properly, our progress is tied to dying.


That, again, fits the archetype. We aren't tough, but we're capable of killing stuff, delayed or not. It's only natural that our capabilities lead us into taking greater risks and sometimes dying.

Please note this isn't at all related to the actual build. It's all about the strengths and weaknesses of our class. If you're saying that the Wizard should have different strengths and weaknesses you're saying it should have a different archetype. In this case, we should probably agree to disagree.

In fact blizzard addressed both of them, giving blizzard a fire rune and hydra a damage boost.
But you are right, AT does not fit Grifts format. On the same page, there is no other element fitting Grifts format.


Indeed. But that's only a consequence of how the Wizard and the Greater Rifts were designed.


I don't agree at all with your opinion but I respect it so I will drop it here. I don't think we can reach an agreement so let's just keep playing and thinking the way we do.

I was once like you and tried to find basis or justifications for Blizzard's designs, back in the day I felt like there were game related, philosophy related and quality related grounds but not anymore.

Their designs have changed a lot, the gaming industry has changed a lot, gamers these days are not what gamers used to be. I think all of these are part of current designs, standards and weightings so I may be nostalgic and that is all.
Posted by Fede
09/30/2014 11:19 AMPosted by Feanor
Well, that fits the archetype perfectly. Robes instead of armor, books instead of shields. Why would you expect a wizard to be tough?

Yes, you are right.
But!
Either you are tough or you do a lot of damage, we are not tough neither we do a lot of damage.
We just do damage during a long period of time and run in circles waiting to refresh it.

First of all, it's not necessarily a matter of either-or. You can also be a controller, relying on conditions and effects to survive and kill. Which we actually are.


I'm not sure what you are implying here, Feanor. It's as if you are implying that Fede's description in the above quote is devoid of control. If anything, the Blizzard/Hydra spec of Firebird centers on AI manipulation, aka herding, to control the environment and control the enemy. The opposite of Fede's argument is not what you are suggesting.

10/01/2014 01:19 AMPosted by Feanor
Also, you can't really say we don't deal tons of damage. Yes, it's mostly over-time effects, but it's huge amounts nonetheless.
Then to be fair, "you can't really say we DO deal tons of damage." It's an opinion. You're comparing our damage output to what, DH's? Look at the leaderboards, at this very moment of posting. DH's are three GR Levels above the Wizard in solo. So who's doing "tons of damage"? Maybe you are right. But at the GRift level of 40+, each single level represents an immense output of DPS increase. So by that metric, we DON'T do tons of damage. My point is, there is not enough evidence to argue your point. It comes down to what material you select your arguments to be based on. And in this discussion, we're not arguing fairly.

10/01/2014 01:19 AMPosted by Feanor
That, again, fits the archetype. We aren't tough, but we're capable of killing stuff, delayed or not. It's only natural that our capabilities lead us into taking greater risks and sometimes dying.

Please note this isn't at all related to the actual build. It's all about the strengths and weaknesses of our class. If you're saying that the Wizard should have different strengths and weaknesses you're saying it should have a different archetype. In this case, we should probably agree to disagree.


If there's one thing I've learned in my time here playing D3, it's that archetypes don't apply here. Wizards running Melee, DH's with Severs in their hand, Barbarians specc'ed to Range, Wizards and DH's running "tower" builds, I mean, what is an archetype? A base by which you build a concept? Well adherence to the classic Archetype of the Wizard isn't Diablo. That is evident. I mean, come on, SNS?

10/01/2014 01:19 AMPosted by Feanor
In fact blizzard addressed both of them, giving blizzard a fire rune and hydra a damage boost.
But you are right, AT does not fit Grifts format. On the same page, there is no other element fitting Grifts format.

Indeed. But that's only a consequence of how the Wizard and the Greater Rifts were designed.


AT doesn't fit GRx+ Format. Any skill that allows you to be physically struck by an enemy, that forces you to allow an enemy to be near you, is going to fail in any game where the scenario is "limitless" up-scaling of Enemy power. At some point, you can not spec or acquire equipment with stats that will withstand the environment presented. That's what GRifts are about. The skills that allow you to do DPS and avoid being quick touched are just..well, the "best" and "only" choices we have. I agree with you here.

_____
-Melk
At the end of the day, it's all A Love Story
~OG Wizard from an OG Forum~
~iRap, You probz don't~
https://www.youtube.com/user/MikeyMayez
10/01/2014 04:36 AMPosted by Melkor
AT doesn't fit GRx+ Format. Any skill that allows you to be physically struck by an enemy, that forces you to allow an enemy to be near you, is going to fail in any game where the scenario is "limitless" up-scaling of Enemy power. At some point, you can not spec or acquire equipment with stats that will withstand the environment presented. That's what GRifts are about. The skills that allow you to do DPS and avoid being quick touched are just..well, the "best" and "only" choices we have. I agree with you here.


I wondered for a long time now. Given the 100 levels of GRifts, is it possible that the only way to reach those is through Legendary Gems at their highest level, those are the only ones that can be scaled so far.
In a format where being touched means death I guess that we, Wizards, will be the only ones capable of keep progressing, with two mechanics that cheat death and a wand with cooldownless teleport.
10/01/2014 04:48 AMPosted by Fede
I wondered for a long time now. Given the 100 levels of GRifts, is it possible that the only way to reach those is through Legendary Gems at their highest level, those are the only ones that can be scaled so far.
In a format where being touched means death I guess that we, Wizards, will be the only ones capable of keep progressing, with two mechanics that cheat death and a wand with cooldownless teleport.


There are Legendary Gems with no caps (off the top, don't recall which ones, but I'm pretty sure the Efficacious Toxin Gem is one of them).

Paragon Points north of 800 also become +5 main stat per level.

The wand will help, sure.

But not really. All these things won't matter. There's going to be a roof where no one is going to do any better, not without a completely and utterly unrealistic amount of time...I'm talking years, invested in a daily grind for hours on end:

A) Leg Gems don't scale at a level that keeps up with the scaling of GRifts. Your toxin gem doing 10,000% WD a second isn't going to help you kill a GRift Guardian at GRift level, 85, for example. Not at this scaling level in Live. I mean, it will do damage, but I doubt you'd even have a chance at killing the guy before the timer hits zero.

B) Getting a single, individual Paragon Level when you reach high enough becomes realistically impossible. I wonder how long it's taking Gabby now to get an extra level...and he's Paragon 1020. He may have an extra 1000 Main Stat over someone at Paragon 800, but he's not #1 on the Leaderboards of DH's at this moment, regardless of that extra 1,000 Stat Points. Actually, he's beaten by Nyan, who is over 300 levels beneath him. Think about that.

C) That wand won't be usable in GRifts. Our weapons need to DO work. Sunkeepers are used for massive Deeps against E's, Same goes for Furnace. Serpent Sparker lets you put out more passive Deeps. That wand will just help you get out of trouble, not do more real deeps.

_____
-Melk
At the end of the day, it's all A Love Story
~OG Wizard from an OG Forum~
~iRap, You probz don't~
https://www.youtube.com/user/MikeyMayez
:(
10/01/2014 05:31 AMPosted by Fede
:(


It's just my thoughts on the matter. What do you think about what I said?

_____
-Melk
At the end of the day, it's all A Love Story
~OG Wizard from an OG Forum~
~iRap, You probz don't~
https://www.youtube.com/user/MikeyMayez
10/01/2014 05:35 AMPosted by Melkor
10/01/2014 05:31 AMPosted by Fede
:(


It's just my thoughts on the matter. What do you think about what I said?

_____
-Melk
At the end of the day, it's all A Love Story
~OG Wizard from an OG Forum~
~iRap, You probz don't~
https://www.youtube.com/user/MikeyMayez


yup para 3000 wouldnt break grift 100
Posted by JERBEAR187
if you set ur wiz up better youll kill leets before dh can get 2 sentries out

as for greaters iv used my wiz to replace 1 of the 2 dps slots on a team for grift 40

there comes a point where dh > wiz for dps but its not as extreme as you make it out to be

the average m6 dh doesnt out dps a well put together fb6x

Actually it is extreme as I make it out to be because I don't do solo play. Your build is a very solo spec which requires you to able to kite entire rooms around and requires unity at higher greater rifts.


the build i run is about the same as in team bro, the only thing that changes is i drop unity and pick up cindercoat / rrog

like my point was that you complain that firebird set doesnt do the damage you need, while simultaneously running gear/abilities that dont really work to benefit the dot much
and my build being "a very solo spec" doesnt change the fact that it will for sure out dps average m6 dh's (not GG dh) but most yes
10/01/2014 05:35 AMPosted by Melkor
It's just my thoughts on the matter. What do you think about what I said?


What I see is that, as you said in other words, at some point LegGems will not have the impact we need to achieve higher GRifts or Gem levels.
Mostly it will be a meaningless battle against a 1% chance to upgrade the gem while from time to time gain another paragon level.

Our gear doesn't scale, we could have perfect pieces for every slot and it won't do a thing.
My seasonal amulet, being 2 points away of perfectness means nothing right now so why would it matter later on? You can add a Wizard passive to it or an element immunity or even change Int for a +Ele% and it won't mean a thing either.

Reached that point, where progressing will be so tedious, I believe Blizzard will address the issue releasing new gems usable on weapons, armors or any other piece of gear, which you will obtain only in higher level GRifts, with some sort of effects that will allow us to keep going.

The game will stall sooner or later, sooner in my opinion because people these days sacrifice their lives in order to reach that state.
So my guess is, we will be seeing this kind of release before February or March next year. I may go to an extreme, but I wouldn't even be surprised if it were to happen close to the end of December.

My thought on the wand is that, when the time comes where all classes will die from one hit from trash no matter what damage reduction spell they could use, we will change SK, SS or any other equipped weapon for this wand just because the survivability given by teleport + unstable anomaly + fb 4pc bonus will beat them in their struggle to stay alive.
Because 30% ED, 50% ED or two hydras won't make a difference, only raw numbers and survivability will.

With our aoe capability and given that we can damage the monsters during long periods of time without effort plus what I just said will let us go further, just a bit, maybe a single level or even seconds in the same level.

I didn't thought about this too deeply tho.
@Fede -

I've heard from a couple other people that they are expecting content to come sooner than later...and I found myself sort of blown away by that notion.

It blows me away because there are two conflicting notions about Diablo 3.

Notion 1 - GG gear comes easily. What is easily? If you put in 6 hours a week, however you find the time to do so, you'll crush T6 in a couple of weeks.

Not casual enough? Put in 3 hours a week, and a month and a half from now I can't see how you're not in full FB set. Just guesstimations. So on one hand, we have this super easy gear acquisition and progress curve that looks like a line with a 10/1 rise/run ratio, lol.

Notion 2 - Paragon grinding takes a LOT of time, with progress being incredibly slow. Once gear is acquired, this is pretty much what we work on. And this takes forever. So someone like myself, who plays every day for at least 2 hours, sees the introduction of new gear and new content this soon as bizarre.

But my experience is not the experience of the average Diablo player. So you may be right, and we could have new content right around the corner.

The thing is, then this whole discussion changes, We don't have a ton of history to reference, and the past is the past, not a prophecy, but usually, when they introduce new stuff..our current stuff sucks -

-1.0.4, overhauled Legs made the old Legs useless...uh, but they were useless to begin with.
-ROS all but invalidates every single legacy piece of gear in existence. This is pretty much accepted as fact.
-2.1 updates certain items, their older versions are now trash, though no one will miss the Legacy Swami, or Flavor of Time, lol

Anyway, the point is, once the next content/gear progression is presented, a Leaderboard #1 spot of Grift 59 may very well be realisitc. Those are the unknowns. At that time, the OP can repost this thread and title it, "For all you newbs up in here, GRift 43 is Normal Mode".

Lol.

Nice talkin' with ya.

_____
-Melk
At the end of the day, it's all A Love Story
~OG Wizard from an OG Forum~
~iRap, You probz don't~
https://www.youtube.com/user/MikeyMayez
@Melkor

I think the best Blizz can do is rethink gear progression, self-development, and choice making. All three tied together.

The promise that came with D3 is the freedom to play the way you wanted, which was not fulfilled because there are two main types of players:
- Casuals who want to play alone or with friends, they choose whatever spell they find awesome in their own standards and play the most comfortable difficulty for them. They care little
- Not casuals that are always looking to get the best out of their choices, they don't just want to play their way but in addition they want it to work out at the same level of most successful builds. They care a lot, they will complain a lot, they will spend big chunks of time thinking and trying to work things out

There are grey zones here and there for sure. The point is that throwing away the skill tree and synergies reduced their possibilities to balance the game or open up new builds and created a false idea of freedom.
Just being able to reset your skill tree infinite times would have been enough freedom. And spending many points in one skill or its synergies was the whole concept backing the balance between abilities and classes.
(Not off topic but not intending either to bring another discussion on board, you can see the evolution of skill trees in Torchlight 2, where your abilities gain an additional effect every five points spent on them)

Stat points allocation, yes, there was a lot of discussion about this but I never intervened. My best shot at highlighting its worth is:
Being able to choose if you want to have full block chance or not, do more damage or have more life or mana, while for some people it is not a choice because there will always be better builds that require you to spend a specific quantity of points to reach a state, at least you are able to choose.
And now with paragon levels, isn't it the same but from level 70 onwards?

The biggest issue I find with gear, speaking only about legendaries and sets, is that with the current design a single piece of gear makes an entire build work or useless, always in terms of efficiency. Then because of that single piece all other legendary pieces become worthless.
If combining a legendary or set with a weak build brings this build on par with the strong builds, that item will be worth and at the same time won't turn the whole Leg pool into Forgotten souls.
(Little addition, when you equip a shield you have more defense, if you instead choose to wield an atomic bomb, then your defense will be lower but your ability to damage should be a lot higher, and that is one of the things I find so unbalanced and incoherent here, even if you are strong enough to use a shield and lift a mountain with your other hand)

Lastly, having a finishing line or level, and making it hard to reach but not impossible will always work better than an endless road.
In my experience I have never reached level 99 in D2, but only because of me and only me.

I could keep writing, pages and pages, about my feelings and thoughts on this whole matter. But I better stop.

I always enjoy such conversations.

PD: If a game is a girl and a player is man, casuals will date you and a lot of other girls, not casuals will marry you.
The choice of who you want to attract gets hard when you have to decide if you want a lot of money or a lot of recognition.
Interesting discussion.

I always thought the philosophy regarding progression in Diablo was that, given enough time, the player would be able to reach the difficulty roof. (As opposed to that of WoW, for example, where each tier makes the previous one obsolete).

IIRC, the seasons and the introduction of new legs are intended to widen the possibilities for reaching that roof instead of being the only means for advancing further. So I think that still holds.

IMO, It's still too early and the devs are, for now, monitoring the progress. And they'll make adjustments when needed. But I don't think changes will come in the form of "tiered" gear, unless an expansion increases our cap level.
@Annatar

Seasons were introduced first in D2 adding new legendaries and runewords only found during seasons, these season characters were then transferred to the normal servers with all the gear and items found (season or not) but the new legendaries and runewords remained as season only, you could never find a seasonal legendary or form a seasonal runeword with normal characters.
With runes being one of the hardest to find items, and runewords requiring up to six of such items, seasons became the place and time to farm the best items in the game.
The quality of runewords varied in damage as in many other attributes so getting the best was always pure luck.

The objective of seasons was only to extend the life of the game, nothing else. With some patches they changed some stuff, like difficulty and drop chances. Also they added some uber bosses, nothing else. There was no other roof than having the best items and be the first to reach level 99. And of course PvP.

In the case of D3 the concept behind seasons is the same, extending the life of the game. The roof, here called GRift 100, which can be changed to 150 and so on...
Widening the possibilities to reach the roof is not an objective but a result of extending the life of the game.

I could say that the greatest difference between one and the other is that items in D2, were useful no matter how hard or easy to find. Which is not the case in D3.

There is a lot of room to extend this explanation and it surely needs some corrections. It is late.

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