Witching Hour

Witch Doctor
Hi guys I was wondeinrg which belt is better for me as a jade doc. http://imgur.com/yw1mLw4
WH will give you more raw damage, vigilante will give you quicker attacks/utility (and more toughness).

Are you dying more than you like? Do you already have north of 30% CDR?

If I had decent CDR with out the belt I'd use the WH, hands down.
Take a look at your CHC/CHD ratio before deciding! The best would be 10 to 1.
And keep in mind that you have one (almost) useless stat on that tWH.
Attack speed if useless for Jade.
I would go for the vigilant, it's better for jade then witching hour.

12/11/2014 12:15 AMPosted by AndreLinoge
Take a look at your CHC/CHD ratio before deciding! The best would be 10 to 1.

This 10 to 1 ratio is complete nonsence btw.
Just do the math: 1 + (CHC x CHD) = x
Whatever gives you a higher number gives you more sheet dps.
12/10/2014 02:15 PMPosted by Nima
Hi guys I was wondeinrg which belt is better for me as a jade doc.


I wonder if the WH IAS stat can be rolled into Life% or CDR? If possible, it may still be BIS.

12/11/2014 12:15 AMPosted by AndreLinoge
Take a look at your CHC/CHD ratio before deciding! The best would be 10 to 1.


Can you link the original source where you read that? Any website, as long as we can reach the original author for posting such crap.

Seems that every month or so, some idiot will post rubbish like this. This was my reply last month to another Jade player:
I'm not suggesting anything here since I don't play Jade. I just want to clarify some points about CHC and CHD. Typical gearing max is around 64 CHC and 480 CHD.

The pair is always the more the merrier. There's no rule and no ratio to that. Whatever configuration gives you a higher [ 1 + (CHC/100 x CHD/100) ] multiplier will lead to higher damage output. When you look at your various gear slots, you'll find the possible rolls are usually in favour of CHC. That's just the way item stats roll. Worst-case comparison is 6 CHC against 50 CHD (unfair advantage to CHC). Other slots provide a whopping 10 CHC. There are two slots that provide the majority of the CHD and that's amulet and weapon socket.

In your case of 40 CHC and 360 CHD.
CHC -- CHD -- Multiplier
40 ----- 360 ----- 2.440
40 ----- 410 ----- 2.640 (you thought getting closer to 1:10 is better?)
46 ----- 360 ----- 2.656 (6 CHC is better than 50 CHD)

You will need to have significant disproportionate ratio for 50 CHD to bring more benefit than 6 CHC.

So much for that stupid 1:10 rule right? The person that came up with that stupid rule to mislead many players has since gone into hiding.


+1 to Glennn, at least more folks are starting to speak up and correct the stupidity of the CHD:CHC ratio.
12/11/2014 12:58 AMPosted by Glennn
Whatever gives you a higher number gives you more sheet dps.


And that's in most cases approximately 1:10 ratio.
Use the vigilante belt, I'd rather get 8 cool down instead of 46 crit damage on my belt any day.
12/11/2014 02:06 AMPosted by AndreLinoge
And that's in most cases approximately 1:10 ratio.


Round of applause for stupidity and jokes.
For damage, ideally you want a naturally rolled WH with int, vit and then you roll the %ias to % life.
Today, jade doc is excels in T6 rifts and solo low grifts (30-40ish) and for that the damage is not your porblem, CDR is (faster damage cycles and running with your party).
But even with CDR, you shouldn't add more and more blindly, you need to see what is actually the difference in-game and not on paper.
12/11/2014 02:22 AMPosted by PaulNg
Round of applause for stupidity and jokes.


Look, if you live for your games, want to be the best in the world and catch them all,
then be my guest, use your formulas and calculate everytime you change a stat.

For the rest of us, who play this game casually and don't give a damn about 0,1% upgrade, we will stick with our easy to remember approx. formulas.
Look, play as you wish, but don't go around telling people wrong or misleading info.

Most of the time, 6% CHC > 50% CHD

12/11/2014 02:06 AMPosted by AndreLinoge
And that's in most cases approximately 1:10 ratio.


and in most cases, that's wrong.

If you don't know the facts, just write your opinion, and stop spreading wrong info.
12/11/2014 02:06 AMPosted by AndreLinoge
12/11/2014 12:58 AMPosted by Glennn
Whatever gives you a higher number gives you more sheet dps.


And that's in most cases approximately 1:10 ratio.


you don't want to lose this one, do you?
12/10/2014 02:15 PMPosted by Nima
Hi guys I was wondeinrg which belt is better for me as a jade doc.


Kadala just gave me a WH belt, so I went to visit the Mystic. The IAS can be rolled into Int/Vit/%Life/AR, but cannot roll into CDR.

So your belt slot, you'd need to choose between Vigilante for CDR or WH for CHD.
12/11/2014 03:35 AMPosted by PaulNg
Look, play as you wish, but don't go around telling people wrong or misleading info.

Most of the time, 6% CHC > 50% CHD

12/11/2014 02:06 AMPosted by AndreLinoge
And that's in most cases approximately 1:10 ratio.


and in most cases, that's wrong.

If you don't know the facts, just write your opinion, and stop spreading wrong info.

Guys, calm down ;) You are both correct.

Strictly mathematically the ratio is not wrong per se. Let's say you are sitting at 40% CHC and 400% CHD (the mythical 1:10 ratio), the multiplier is 2.6. If you had to trade 1% CHC for 10% CHD, which is the case when regarding paragon points, you either land at 39% CHC / 410% CHD and therefore a 2.599 multiplier or 41% CHC / 390% CHD which also leads to a 2.599 multiplier.

For a function x*y where the sum of x and y is limited and increasing x costs a certain amount of y, the maximum is at the point where the ratio of x/y equals the ratio of the costs.

So regarding paragon points, 1% CHC usually costs 10% CHD. While below a certain paragon level, you might have to trade CHC for CHD and in this case, you want to get as close as possible to the 1:10 ratio.

Gear is a completely different matter. On gear 6% CHC is always worth more than 50% CHD, you would need 60% CHD to make up. Except for really low CHD of course.

Fiddling around with PaulNG's linked numbers:
CHC -- CHD -- Multiplier
40 ----- 360 ----- 2.440
add 5% CHC or 50% CHD
45 ----- 360 ----- 2.620
40 ----- 410 ----- 2.640 <--- closer to 1:10, better!
add 6% CHC or 60% CHD
46 ----- 360 ----- 2.656
40 ----- 420 ----- 2.680 <--- closer to 1:10, better!

other base values:
36 ----- 400 ----- 2.440
add 5% CHC or 50% CHD
41 ----- 400 ----- 2.640 <--- closer to 1:10, better!
36 ----- 450 ----- 2.620
add 6% CHC or 60% CHD
42 ----- 400 ----- 2.680 <--- closer to 1:10, better!
36 ----- 460 ----- 2.656


TL;DR:

  • 1% CHC is worth 10% CHD
  • On gear, 6% CHC is almost always better than 50% CHD, even if you get further away from a 1:10 ratio.
  • If you have to trade CHC for CHD (e.g. Paragon Points) with a limited pool of points, you will probably get the best DPS close to the 1:10 ratio.
12/11/2014 06:36 AMPosted by AlCalzone
On gear, 6% CHC is almost always better than 50% CHD, even if you get further away from a 1:10 ratio.


Exactly, players will not roll 5% when they can roll 6%. They cannot roll 60 CHD even if they wanted to.

So the whole 1:10 ratio is a fallacy, by the very nature of the way items roll in this game. Don't fudge my numbers to showcase what the game cannot roll, or what players would not purposely want to roll.
And to boot, CHD is the only possible roll on a WH, and is the only belt that can roll that way... ergo its the most damage (IAS is swell too, but not unique... and for the case of jade not really all that useful).

So the whole ratio argument is pointless with respect to this item slot. WH is BiS for straight sheet damage for all builds.
Exactly, players will not roll 5% when they can roll 6%. They cannot roll 60 CHD even if they wanted to.
Don't fudge my numbers to showcase what the game cannot roll, or what players would not purposely want to roll.

First, you might get to a point while rerolling where you have to chose between a suboptimal new roll and what you have (lack of mats, etc...).

Second, you can roll 6% CHC / 60% CHD on amulets.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off (you seem a little), just weakening those 2 ultimate truths that stand in the room. Again, the 1:10 ratio is correct, but one shouldn't try to reach it without thinking first.
I rolled out IAS for Int on mine, not to bad, low CD though ...

http://i.imgur.com/880K9Hq.jpg
12/11/2014 02:56 PMPosted by AlCalzone
Second, you can roll 6% CHC / 60% CHD on amulets.


What's the point in that when we can roll 10%/100%?
The worst-case (closest) comparison is between 6%/50%, other slots the difference will be too obvious (10%/50%, or just 10%CHC or 130%CHD where there's no point comparing).

12/11/2014 02:56 PMPosted by AlCalzone
I'm not trying to piss anyone off (you seem a little), just weakening those 2 ultimate truths that stand in the room. Again, the 1:10 ratio is correct, but one shouldn't try to reach it without thinking first.


I certainly am pissed off. For months non-stop, idiots will go spreading the fallacy of the 1:10 ratio. It is wrong, even from a maths standpoint. The combination of factors is always "the more the merrier".

As a statement, 40 CHC & 401 CHD is > 40 CHC & 400 CHD. That's prove that the 1:10 ratio is wrong.

For Pets especially, where we can get critical hits and the CHC&CHD multiplier is just an estimation, I've also shown simple examples where >50% CHC is good. This portion is not really about maths but maybe the way the CHC brackets (if any) are coded. The bias is not thoroughly proven, but the simple videos provides a good illustration for Pets choosing CHC first.

More than a year ago, I've proven the mechanics for Cloud of Bats, and also proven about optimum APS for CoB tick damage. Just using 1 APS bracket to illustrate,
1.76471-1.87500 aps - 16 frames - 3.75 ticks
If a player is within that same APS range, he does the same 3.75 ticks per sec and ticks every 16 frames, but the damage per tick is not the same.

At 1.765 APS, damage per tick starts climbing higher with APS.
At 1.8000001 APS, damage per tick reaches its peak.
Above 1.8000001 APS to 1.875 APS, damage per tick drops again until the next APS bracket.
It shows clearly there's a optimum for each APS bracket. 1.801 APS has higher CoB damage than 1.87 APS, regardless of what the character sheet damage says, or even official Blizzard info or Tooltip description. It shows a discontinuity from development room design to coding team and final product rollout.

These are 2 different scenarios, where 1 scenario calls upon the proof of optima correctly, and the other scenario where 1:10 ratio is an outright fallacy. Same applies for Armor/AR, the output that leads to a higher overall is better. We do not purposely roll lower just to go closer to the ratio, which is weaker than rolling out-of-ratio. Reaching a maths balancing point does not mean it is optimal.

Details of CoB Mechanics (Part 1) Wasted Damage can be found here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377379828

Edit: I've thought of another way to explain to you ratio troopers. Hopefully you all will finally get it.

The CHC&CHD function, getting to the ratio balancing point is a minima, among many sets of minima curves. It is the worst-case-scenario for damage output. In economic and engineering, it is the point of greatest efficiency, using the smallest combination of resources or input. Minima in maths has its purpose, but not for D3 damage output. On either side of the minima point, whether you push CHC or CHD up, you are going to get better results. A more appropriate application for minima can be the Armor/AR gearing efficiency, although the overall mitigation is still "the more the merrier".

The CoB APS function for wasted damage is a maxima, among many sets of maxima curves. It is the best-case-scenario for damage output. In economics and engineering, this method is used to maximise profits or output of technical purposes. On either side of the maxima point, whether you increase or decrease APS, you are going to get worse results.

The two types of turning points are actually opposite.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum