Hellrift grifts need to be changed/removed

Hardcore
I can't count the number of times I enter a grift and get a hellrift with 2-3 elite packs at the entrance.

For a WD, I almost always die and have to exit and wait for CD's to refresh, mostly because at the start of a grift I have zero pets.
Well that answers the question asked when you step through the portal.

I'm jk bud, I have no clue about WD problems.
If it truly is that big of an issue for you maybe you can be proactive and call forth your minions of hell b4 you enter the rift?

I welcome this map because It's the smallest level with the biggest bang for my buck (so to say). Dh don't have the defensive skills compared to Wd and I can't explain my feeling as I have limited time on Wd but if my Dh can handle it, I feel anyone could if approached correctly.

People used to complain about lack of density and now we see people have an issue with density.... Poor Blizz, damned if you do- damned if you don't.

Must suck being a dev :)
I never had a problem tanking 3 elite packs.
I've noticed that as well. I think there's a few too many elites for it's length, so there's inevetably one or two near the entrance and then the others drift down once you've engaged the first group.

01/28/2015 07:57 AMPosted by DfrokdPriest
If it truly is that big of an issue for you maybe you can be proactive and call forth your minions of hell b4 you enter the rift?


You can't if it's the first level of a GR. You have to summon them once inside.

I'd like to see them make the map a little longer, i.e. keeping the 3-4 elite packs but adding a couple more of the linear tiles. It'd still be nice when you get it because it would be short and linear with a bunch of elite packs, but wouldn't be a death trap. It seems way out of line right now with the other rift maps.

http://i.imgur.com/NSyCShq.jpg
01/28/2015 08:04 AMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
You can't if it's the first level of a GR. You have to summon them once inside.


Yeah, didn't know that. Seems kind of crappy. Is this only in Grifts or all rifts?
01/28/2015 08:11 AMPosted by DfrokdPriest
Yeah, didn't know that. Seems kind of crappy. Is this only in Grifts or all rifts?


Just GRs. Any castable buffs (e.g. WD pets, wizard armor/magic weapon) get removed when you enter the GR. All resources get restored, all shrine effects get removed, and all cooldowns reset as well.

I believe it's to prevent someone for equipping Gloves of Worship and go around and tag a bunch of shrines to have 10 minute shrine effects through their GR run.

EDIT: Although there does appear to be a bug with wizard's Energy Armor where it gets removed every time you close a regular rift.
The game doesn't need to be any easier.
It's not about the game to be any easier, it's about giving you time to react.

I encounter the same issues in many maps, not only this one. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to secure the entrance of the level by declaring it a no-monster spawn zone.

If you're running it on T6, it's fine when you're geared for it and your load time is 0.1 sec, but if you're still running from a HDD or your PC isn't the best, then you're in for a trouble.
I can't complain from it doing T6, as it's almost impossible to die given the gear we are given now (except if you're Prometheus of course), but if you're running GR30+, then you can be in a serious trouble. I can recall few occassions where as soon as I enter GR40+, I get jumped instantly by nasty elite pack mobs that it's almost impossible to click the exit.

This is something that shouldn't be happening and it's an easy fix, just ignored by devs for quite some time now. It has nothing to do with the density or the game being hard or easy. It's like saying that the old Raiziel lightening proc was a fair fight against melee characters when pets were present.

01/28/2015 07:57 AMPosted by DfrokdPriest
Must suck being a dev :)


It does suck to be a lazy one, that's for sure.

The new A2 Oasis map is similar now, except it gives you some room to maneuver before you cross the bridge. I've encountered as many as 6 packs right at the bridge side. It was fun to kill them, but obviously they shouldn't be positioned right at the start of the level.

This isn't a player issue, but rather QoL improvement from dev side.
01/28/2015 08:59 AMPosted by silentkiller
It's not about the game to be any easier, it's about giving you time to react.

I encounter the same issues in many maps, not only this one. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to secure the entrance of the level by declaring it a no-monster spawn zone.

If you're running it on T6, it's fine when you're geared for it and your load time is 0.1 sec, but if you're still running from a HDD or your PC isn't the best, then you're in for a trouble.
I can't complain from it doing T6, as it's almost impossible to die given the gear we are given now (except if you're Prometheus of course), but if you're running GR30+, then you can be in a serious trouble. I can recall few occassions where as soon as I enter GR40+, I get jumped instantly by nasty elite pack mobs that it's almost impossible to click the exit.

This is something that shouldn't be happening and it's an easy fix, just ignored by devs for quite some time now. It has nothing to do with the density or the game being hard or easy. It's like saying that the old Raiziel lightening proc was a fair fight against melee characters when pets were present.

01/28/2015 07:57 AMPosted by DfrokdPriest
Must suck being a dev :)


It does suck to be a lazy one, that's for sure.

The new A2 Oasis map is similar now, except it gives you some room to maneuver before you cross the bridge. I've encountered as many as 6 packs right at the bridge side. It was fun to kill them, but obviously they shouldn't be positioned right at the start of the level.

This isn't a player issue, but rather QoL improvement from dev side.


TL;DR
01/28/2015 09:37 AMPosted by BoBaFeTT
TL;DR


LTR or you have you checked for ADD maybe?
01/28/2015 10:10 AMPosted by silentkiller
01/28/2015 09:37 AMPosted by BoBaFeTT
TL;DR


LTR or you have you checked for ADD maybe?


I got ADD, but what has that to do with this topic?
01/28/2015 08:59 AMPosted by silentkiller
It's not about the game to be any easier, it's about giving you time to react.

I encounter the same issues in many maps, not only this one. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to secure the entrance of the level by declaring it a no-monster spawn zone.

If you're running it on T6, it's fine when you're geared for it and your load time is 0.1 sec, but if you're still running from a HDD or your PC isn't the best, then you're in for a trouble.
I can't complain from it doing T6, as it's almost impossible to die given the gear we are given now (except if you're Prometheus of course), but if you're running GR30+, then you can be in a serious trouble. I can recall few occassions where as soon as I enter GR40+, I get jumped instantly by nasty elite pack mobs that it's almost impossible to click the exit.

This is something that shouldn't be happening and it's an easy fix, just ignored by devs for quite some time now. It has nothing to do with the density or the game being hard or easy. It's like saying that the old Raiziel lightening proc was a fair fight against melee characters when pets were present.

01/28/2015 07:57 AMPosted by DfrokdPriest
Must suck being a dev :)


It does suck to be a lazy one, that's for sure.

The new A2 Oasis map is similar now, except it gives you some room to maneuver before you cross the bridge. I've encountered as many as 6 packs right at the bridge side. It was fun to kill them, but obviously they shouldn't be positioned right at the start of the level.

This isn't a player issue, but rather QoL improvement from dev side.


Sorry, I gotta disagree SK! It makes the game easier imo.

There have always been instances in the game where there was a chance to get jumped and have a difficult time getting out. Heck, I remember a time when I wouldn't port directly into the FoM -- instead, I went to the cemetery and ran over! lol Why? Because there was a real threat of getting jumped with no escape.

Have you ever died getting jumped at the opening of a GR? I haven't. I'll be surprised if you have. Sure, you may have to bail on the GR, but that's part of the RNG. You may choose to go back in a few times and whittle your way through...I've done that many times. Of course, hard to beat the timer at that point.

Plus, this would seem to be only a problem for some classes, right? Barb, dh, maybe wiz.

Raziel probably wasn't a fair fight for melee characters. Another case where they just made the game easier. :-)
01/28/2015 11:09 AMPosted by JCRUZ
01/28/2015 08:59 AMPosted by silentkiller
It's not about the game to be any easier, it's about giving you time to react.

I encounter the same issues in many maps, not only this one. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to secure the entrance of the level by declaring it a no-monster spawn zone.

If you're running it on T6, it's fine when you're geared for it and your load time is 0.1 sec, but if you're still running from a HDD or your PC isn't the best, then you're in for a trouble.
I can't complain from it doing T6, as it's almost impossible to die given the gear we are given now (except if you're Prometheus of course), but if you're running GR30+, then you can be in a serious trouble. I can recall few occassions where as soon as I enter GR40+, I get jumped instantly by nasty elite pack mobs that it's almost impossible to click the exit.

This is something that shouldn't be happening and it's an easy fix, just ignored by devs for quite some time now. It has nothing to do with the density or the game being hard or easy. It's like saying that the old Raiziel lightening proc was a fair fight against melee characters when pets were present.

...

It does suck to be a lazy one, that's for sure.

The new A2 Oasis map is similar now, except it gives you some room to maneuver before you cross the bridge. I've encountered as many as 6 packs right at the bridge side. It was fun to kill them, but obviously they shouldn't be positioned right at the start of the level.

This isn't a player issue, but rather QoL improvement from dev side.


Sorry, I gotta disagree SK! It makes the game easier imo.

There have always been instances in the game where there was a chance to get jumped and have a difficult time getting out. Heck, I remember a time when I wouldn't port directly into the FoM -- instead, I went to the cemetery and ran over! lol Why? Because there was a real threat of getting jumped with no escape.

Have you ever died getting jumped at the opening of a GR? I haven't. I'll be surprised if you have. Sure, you may have to bail on the GR, but that's part of the RNG. You may choose to go back in a few times and whittle your way through...I've done that many times. Of course, hard to beat the timer at that point.

Plus, this would seem to be only a problem for some classes, right? Barb, dh, maybe wiz.

Raziel probably wasn't a fair fight for melee characters. Another case where they just made the game easier. :-)


I agree with this. Good points.
01/28/2015 11:09 AMPosted by JCRUZ
Have you ever died getting jumped at the opening of a GR? I haven't. I'll be surprised if you have


I haven't and the only reason is because my load times are super fast, but I've seen very close calls.

This isn't what should be making the game hard, what you're suggesting in your post is to turn up on RNG even more and increase events where you can instantly die from something you're not even remotely prepared for, for example as you're being jailed there should be a chance of army of Armored Armaddons to fall on you or something similar.

I gave you the example with Raiziel and the Lightning proc bug, that cause pets to proc it so often that it becomes impossible for a melee character to overcome it. This is called stupid design and it affects half the classes, no big deal if you're playing range character for sure and having to remake the game if you get the RG or wait until your team kill it until you hang at safer distances doesn't qualify as Hard and challenging.

If you truly think that remaking the game once you enter the rift, just because there is a chance to be overtaken by few elite packs and sometimes it's not even possible to click back on the portal, then we can't really continue the discussion about whats hard and whats not.

The game is easier because it takes 30 minutes to reach 70, another 2 hours to reach T6 farming capability and then it takes another 50 to perfect your gear. There is no progression curve at all.
Monster placement RNG shouldn't be another factor that adds to the frustration meter. Sure I can remake the game, farm another GR40+ key with some luck, try again and repeat until I see a safe entrance, where I won't be jumped like flies on horse sh$t :)
This is not what the game should be about, don't you think?
Let me ask you this, If you die during such encounter would you be happy about it? As soon as you enter a rift a pack of Corrupted Angels and Winged Assassins just plow through you, proc you and then cast TS+Walls or Nightmare+Orbiter or something like that and exit is no longer possible to be clicked with TS ticking on you. I'm sure it will be most fun you've had in the game.
Or another more common scenario, upon entry in a rift, the game crashes and you end up dying because few packs have jumped upon you.
Thing is nobody wants to die to situations they don't have any control over, this doesn't make the game harder, makes it more or less stupid.

If you want to add danger to the game, create situations where you have time to react, not a situation where you have no time to react to the danger that's incoming. I'll give you an example with Perdition in high GR, he has a teleporting attack that it's unavoidable and 1 shots you in GR37+. Any other GR is possible to be fought and attacks avoided to certain extent in the same GR levels, but his isn't and the funny part is regardless of the distance between you and him he still teleports right on top of you.
Do you think that type of attacks make the game better and hard or do you think that after spending 10-15 minutes to get to that point just so you have to leave the game because it's an impassable barrier if you get that monster?

01/28/2015 11:09 AMPosted by JCRUZ
Plus, this would seem to be only a problem for some classes, right? Barb, dh, maybe wiz.


When you create challenges and have different classes you need to take into account all of them, not just 1 or 2, don't you think?
Take for example Rime - it was a nightmare for Barbs, Monks, maybe Crusaders, but it posses no threat for any of the range classes, his attacks were purely designed for melee characters. If you're playing solo you're doomed as melee, if you're playing in a team you contribute absolutely nothing to the fight. Is that good game design or do you think the change to him was a bad move and made the game easier?

Challenge in any form that is designed that a player can apply counter moves is welcome, anything that you encounter as your played class and have no way to be avoided not at all.

01/28/2015 11:14 AMPosted by BoBaFeTT
I agree with this. Good points.


If you could only use your brain for the purpose it was given to you. It seems a waste carrying those few kilos on your head.
Yeah, that map can be brutal in high-ish GRs.

01/28/2015 08:49 AMPosted by JCRUZ
The game doesn't need to be any easier.


It's not that easy when you're doing 40+ with three pack at the entrance.
What makes the game difficult is that there are situations in various locations, with monsters that have particular attacks, against some characters that are at different levels with varying gear, operated by players of variable skill. That's all RNG and it's been that way since day 1 release. That's the game.

Over time, they've implemented skills and gear to make the game much easier.

Raziel and lightning? Get a Xepherian. Immune.
Arcane bothering you? Get a Julia's. Immune.
Poison not your cup of tea? Get a Mara's. Immune.
Afraid of dying? Get shoulders, chest, and a passive, and more. Immune.
Frozen a problem? Ice Climbers. Immune.
Molten got you down? Blackthorns. Immune.
Afraid of walls? Illusory boots. Immune.

On and on. Pre-RoS none of these existed (if memory serves me correctly). The game was relatively much harder.

Of course, one can't mitigate everything, including monsters showing up at the entrance to GR.

And I guess that my point....one by one they've introduced things and changes to the game to make it easier. Making sure monsters don't show up at the entrance would make it even more so.
01/28/2015 01:15 PMPosted by JCRUZ
And I guess that my point....one by one they've introduced things and changes to the game to make it easier. Making sure monsters don't show up at the entrance would make it even more so.


And how is a player meant to counter that? get a faster computer? never run grifts because you never know what maps it will use?

A challenge is one thing. If it can not be avoided or mitigated it is another thing. Unavoidable damage? get more toughness. Arcane beams? do not stand in them. Vortex? Fight around walls. Also using those immunity items comes at a cost.

If you decide to use Blackthorns you can not have a 6 piece set.

If you use a immunity amulet you can not use any other amulet that might make you deal more damage or be immune to a different elemental.

If the game ran a lottery where it would kill 10 random HC heroes everyday for no reason, would that make the game more challenging?

I do not believe creeps camping the entrance a map make the game more challenging.
01/28/2015 02:18 PMPosted by Mike276
01/28/2015 01:15 PMPosted by JCRUZ
And I guess that my point....one by one they've introduced things and changes to the game to make it easier. Making sure monsters don't show up at the entrance would make it even more so.


And how is a player meant to counter that? get a faster computer? never run grifts because you never know what maps it will use?

A challenge is one thing. If it can not be avoided or mitigated it is another thing. Unavoidable damage? get more toughness. Arcane beams? do not stand in them. Vortex? Fight around walls. Also using those immunity items comes at a cost.

If you decide to use Blackthorns you can not have a 6 piece set.

If you use a immunity amulet you can not use any other amulet that might make you deal more damage or be immune to a different elemental.

If the game ran a lottery where it would kill 10 random HC heroes everyday for no reason, would that make the game more challenging?

I do not believe creeps camping the entrance a map make the game more challenging.


Well, it IS more challenging, otherwise we wouldn't be worrying about it ;-)

Why does there have to be some counter? By design, you're going to run into something, someplace, at some level, that's going to kill you. What then? Take that out of the game? Unfortunately, that's been the pattern.

I think monsters at the start of a GR can be avoided.
JCruz you're talking sh!t.
Yes the game is easier, but in GRifts it's harder than it ever was.
Unavoidable damage is crap no matter how you slice it.

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