Player diversity = build diversity

General Discussion
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I see a lot of topics talking about a lack of build diversity. I have to disagree. There are hundreds of items and builds in the game. The real lack of diversity comes from the type players.

I see someone ask a question like “I love the electrocute skill, what kinds of builds can I make with that?” Too many times, that player is met with responses like:
“why would you use electrocute when arcane torrent is better?”
“Why would you use lightning when fire is better?”
“Why would you use Wizard when Demon Hunter is better?”
“Why would you even play Diablo 3?”

The issue is that many people can’t play this game for fun…or more specifically, that the ‘fun’ is defined by dominating the highest level of competition possible, regardless of the path you need to take to get you there. There’s this mental condition where the video-game nerd measures their self worth (among other things), by their achievements in the game.

Instead, try picking out skills, items, or lore that you find interesting and just play that at the level of competition that gives you a fun experience. If that’s T1, that’s fine. If that’s GR45, that’s fine. You’ll be amazed at how many builds this game actually has when you stop worrying about measuring your fun by what level of Grift you can complete. I know I’m coming off as preachy, but it’s only coming from the realization that sacrificing play style and aesthetics for achievement is a surefire way to grow tired of the game. For example, I have a full Jade set. I don’t like the gameplay. I have the Pet build stuff, but it got a little stale. Ultimately, the Helltooth set was the most fun build I could create. Sure, It’s not nearly as good as the other WD builds, and it dropped me 10 grift levels with my WD, but it’s just…so cool. I love the idea of a Zombie-master. That aesthetic, and lore has made the Helltooth set a ‘build’ for me, regardless of its effectiveness.

There will always be a ‘best build’ when it comes to effectiveness. It’s unavoidable. When it comes to something quantifiable, the numerically superior build will always rise to the top. Always. Numerically, Marauder is grotesquely superior to Natalya/strafe build or a DH pet build, or really any other DH build, for that matter. But it doesn’t mean that those other options aren’t ‘builds’, or that there are even a lack of options. Play your M6 DH when you want to level up gems in higher grifts, and play your Natalya build on T5-T6 when you want to do something different. Both are builds, and both are fine.

To me, the best part about this game is that there’s always a challenging level for you to pit your character against, no matter how powerful your character is. It’s only knowing where you are in the pecking order that ruins that system. Knowing you can only achieve X with your build, while the other guy can achieve X+1 drives that primal and regrettable part of human nature that makes you want to abandon your way and adopt their way. Having the discipline to ignore that urge is the key to enjoying the game, in my opinion.

I’ve rambled enough. I’ll just end with this thought. We all measure our fun differently, and Blizzard has to make a game that caters to ALL kinds of players. So, next time you’re frustrated with the 'lack of options', instead, try expanding your field of vision.
I play seasons, but not for the leaderboard. My barb is a blast to play. I run T6 bounties and rifts easily with him, but he isn't for GRifts. I could probably see how far he can go in them, but honestly don't care. He has a very unique spec based on his weapon. I only played the season for a fresh start with a fresh sub-community in D3. My monk is the same way, not for leaderboards. Do I have the skills to compete on the leaderboards, most likely not, because it just doesn't appel to me. I think everyone would be surprised at the amount of players with my attitude. I have run across a lot who feel the same way. I'm thrilled there are seasons. It keeps people playing who thrive on competition. The bigger the "player" diversity, the more people play, and the more Blizzard stays on top of patches and possibly expacs.
The lack of diversity comes from the game. not the players.

when someone asks a question about the electrocute skill. and is told to use Arcane torrent, like you mention. its not the players fault for not sticking with electrocute and not being as strong as can be. is that what they should do for fun? pick weaker skills that never gain power ever at all?

its the games fault for not allowing players to develop a varied selection of skills. Countless runes are used by basically no one at all.

and its not just skills. its items too. the developers have decided awkwardly what is powerful and what is weak.

they should have given the players a mountain to climb in order to create or discover their own weakness and power among the multitude of options.

its preschool stuff and they failed miserably at it.

the game does it to itself. they give the players timers like a childish arcade game and give the players nothing to excel at other than "massive DPS"

so of course the players are going to try to excel at it. they gobble up their trifecta gear and their furnace and just plow through the game like little zombies....

but dont kid yourself. the game is still at fault. blizzard has MADE games that cater to all kinds of players.

Hearthstone can satisfy 6 year olds and no-life professional gaming savants. so can WoW
so can Starcraft 1 and 2. safe bet HoTs will do the same. perhaps even overwatch...

blizzard use to break the mold when it can to "easy to learn hard to master"

Unfortunately they dropped the ball BIG TIME in that regard with D3.
There are quite a few builds that can be used at the T6 level (clearing a rift between 10-15 minutes), and I assume that number will increase with the introduction of Ancient gear.

The problem is Greater Rifts exist, and that is the highest level of difficulty in the game. The leaderboards put a spotlight on the viability of builds at these top end difficulties, so we've all learned that for every class there is one build that heavily outperforms all the others.
12/23/2014 08:29 AMPosted by smokeypoo
There are quite a few builds that can be used at the T6 level (clearing a rift between 10-15 minutes)


if you do T6 in 10-15 minutes you are doing it wrong, it shouldnt take you longer than 4-5 minutes, everything else you can call not efficient aka not a good build
12/23/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Beni
12/23/2014 08:29 AMPosted by smokeypoo
There are quite a few builds that can be used at the T6 level (clearing a rift between 10-15 minutes)


if you do T6 in 10-15 minutes you are doing it wrong, it shouldnt take you longer than 4-5 minutes, everything else you can call not efficient aka not a good build


Beni, your mindset illustrates my point perfectly. Thank you.
12/23/2014 08:25 AMPosted by Shurgosa
when someone asks a question about the electrocute skill. and is told to use Arcane torrent, like you mention. its not the players fault for not sticking with electrocute and not being as strong as can be. is that what they should do for fun? pick weaker skills that never gain power ever at all?


It is the player's fault if he doesn't find fun with the "cookie cutter" spec. He should stick with his gut and have fun with it. I rarely ask for advice on my builds. I don't care if they are "optimal" or not, I have the fun I want to have. So I reiterate, it IS the players fault.

12/23/2014 08:25 AMPosted by Shurgosa
they should have given the players a mountain to climb in order to create or discover their own weakness and power among the multitude of options.


This is not the games fault, but again, the "cookie cutter" mentality. Don't come to the forums and ask for advice, or copy another player's spec. It is a mountain to climb, in the sense that a new weapon, or set bonus changes your game completely, if you let it.

12/23/2014 08:25 AMPosted by Shurgosa
so of course the players are going to try to excel at it. they gobble up their trifecta gear and their furnace and just plow through the game like little zombies....


Like I said in my first reply on this topic, you would be surprised at the number of players who have my mentality of, "This is fun, I don't care if I can't get past GRift lvl 35 with it, it's fun". I haven't worried about the leaderboard once in season one, and won't next season. I plan to play in the seasons because it's nice to start fresh, with fresh characters and economy.

12/23/2014 08:25 AMPosted by Shurgosa
Hearthstone can satisfy 6 year olds and no-life professional gaming savants. so can WoWso can Starcraft 1 and 2. safe bet HoTs will do the same. perhaps even overwatch...


Actually, after Cataclysm, WOW sucks. I'm about as casual player as you will ever find, and I quit WOW soon after cataclysm started. I played my characters the way they were fun, and they were totally viable, until 2 levels before max level, then they had to be played in a totally different way. I felt the point of leveling was learning your toon, but Blizzard felt differently, I guess. Whether a game is good or not is totally up to the individual player.

I have been here complaining about a multitude of "problems' with the game in the past. The only reason my outlook has changed, I went back to the style of play I had with D2. Play, experiment, and kill the crap out of, or crush anything I can. In that regard, this game has accomplished what every other Diablo game has, it's fun, diverse, and worthy of hours on end of play time. This is my opinion, and could be everyone else's too if they weren't hung up on what everyone else is doing.
12/23/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Beni
if you do T6 in 10-15 minutes you are doing it wrong, it shouldnt take you longer than 4-5 minutes, everything else you can call not efficient aka not a good build


This is the exact mentality I am talking about. People with this attitude are trying to play this game like a job. Clearing a rift in 4-5 minutes is not the point of having fun, which is what gaming is all about. If your clearing a rift in T6 in 4-5 minutes, than your done with that spec and gear. Either start another class, or start a new spec.
Your builds do not have to be able to do T6 or Greater Rifts, why people don't understand that I don't know.
12/23/2014 09:16 AMPosted by TEHvomit
12/23/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Beni
if you do T6 in 10-15 minutes you are doing it wrong, it shouldnt take you longer than 4-5 minutes, everything else you can call not efficient aka not a good build


This is the exact mentality I am talking about. People with this attitude are trying to play this game like a job. Clearing a rift in 4-5 minutes is not the point of having fun, which is what gaming is all about. If your clearing a rift in T6 in 4-5 minutes, than your done with that spec and gear. Either start another class, or start a new spec.


it still doesnt exclude the game from offering more than it currently does in the way of items and character developement...

the player base is millions strong. They have tried and tested and tweaked an astronomical number of possibilities. have developed their own play styles, have found overpowered builds and synergies, have found very niche builds, have found runes that are junk..

but unfortunately the portion of the playerbase you belong to will not let go of that porkchop. you've clamped onto it for dear life. you hold the game and the devs to no standard and are constantly accusing players as a global unit to just keep imagining their own fun because that is endless within D3. And that players focused on pure efficiency are wilfully sabotaging the game...

its like North Korea up in here........
I'd say players focused on efficiency and playing 20 hours a day and then complaining the game only gave them 1000 hours of gameplay are probably the funniest thing about this game.
12/23/2014 09:29 AMPosted by Shurgosa
And that players focused on pure efficiency are wilfully sabotaging the game...


Well the game is not supposed to be about efficiency.
12/23/2014 08:00 AMPosted by TheWildcard
I see a lot of topics talking about a lack of build diversity. I have to disagree. There are hundreds of items and builds in the game. The real lack of diversity comes from the type players.


In some VERY small ways that may be a little bit accurate. They simply don't care about the game to make the build diversity even somewhat resemble that of D2. D3's builds also are not based on the player...I'm sure most players who are trying to have fun with this game try EVERYTHING possible...which are not too many options... If you want build diversity play D2 (better yet, PoE) and if you want shiny, pretty graphics play D3.
12/23/2014 09:29 AMPosted by Shurgosa
the player base is millions strong. They have tried and tested and tweaked an astronomical number of possibilities. have developed their own play styles, have found overpowered builds and synergies, have found very niche builds, have found runes that are junk..


Millions strong, as in they depend on each other to tell them which way is the best way to play. If they have all played various styles and settled on the same spec, then your saying all of them have found every weapon of every type and tried them all with various specs. That, sir, has not happened. A vast majority of the players that we all se complaining are using the same cookie cutter specs.

12/23/2014 09:29 AMPosted by Shurgosa
but unfortunately the portion of the playerbase you belong to will not let go of that porkchop. you've clamped onto it for dear life. you hold the game and the devs to no standard and are constantly accusing players as a global unit to just keep imagining their own fun because that is endless within D3. And that players focused on pure efficiency are wilfully sabotaging the game...


I don't "imagine" my own fun. I don't have to imagine it because I experience it everytime I log on, or I log back off and find what I feel like doing. I work a full time job, I don't want another one that doesn't even pay the bills, and I have to purchase to start with. I don't have anything to say about the Dev's to be honest. I don't know any of them, and don't care who they are. As long as they do their job and I enjoy their game, I'll play it. Those players focused on pure efficiency can play it that way if they want, but should probably take a break when it gets monotonous, and not blame players like me, or the devs, or Blizzard when the game gets dull for them.

12/23/2014 09:29 AMPosted by Shurgosa
its like North Korea up in here........


Never been there, and doubt you have either, or you wouldn't be making such an asenine comparison.
12/23/2014 09:14 AMPosted by TEHvomit
12/23/2014 08:25 AMPosted by Shurgosa
when someone asks a question about the electrocute skill. and is told to use Arcane torrent, like you mention. its not the players fault for not sticking with electrocute and not being as strong as can be. is that what they should do for fun? pick weaker skills that never gain power ever at all?


It is the player's fault if he doesn't find fun with the "cookie cutter" spec. He should stick with his gut and have fun with it. I rarely ask for advice on my builds. I don't care if they are "optimal" or not, I have the fun I want to have. So I reiterate, it IS the players fault.


The game is a loot hunt, though, and I get far less loot playing below a certain threshold.

Besides, even some of the builds that can't go that high need specific items - IE, the fun Electrocute build needs a Velvet Camarel and a Myken's Ball of Hate.

12/23/2014 09:17 AMPosted by Suedomsa
Your builds do not have to be able to do T6 or Greater Rifts, why people don't understand that I don't know.


The mentality is that you shouldn't need to handicap yourself in order to have fun. If I can handle a T6 rift in 5 minutes with Build X, and then I take the time to swap out a bunch of gear and skills and the result is that i get slaughtered on T6, then what was the point?

There's also other problems with certain builds. I thoroughly enjoy, for example, Lightning and Firelight on the Crusader with Fist of the Heavens. Unfortunately, both those builds piss off other players not only by covering the screen with graphic effects, but being noisy as hell.

Most skills aren't that good, anyway. A ton of them are just awkward to use.

For the Wizard, the only exception to all this I've ever found is Meteor just because I like the concept, but it doesn't matter. I still can't do what I want with Meteor (which is spam the hell out of it and enjoy fire raining from the sky) because I can't find the damned Grand Vizier staff.
12/23/2014 09:36 AMPosted by Suedomsa
12/23/2014 09:29 AMPosted by Shurgosa
And that players focused on pure efficiency are wilfully sabotaging the game...


Well the game is not supposed to be about efficiency.


This is a really interesting statement. It really makes me look at the term ARPG and the fact that "role" has been beaten out of the genre and been completely replaced by "action". These games weren't originally supposed to be about efficiency. They were supposed to be role playing games, but the competition and desire to be better than others forced them more and more towards the action end of the spectrum.

Diablo 3 is indeed about efficiency. But perhaps it should not be.
12/23/2014 09:51 AMPosted by Orrion
The mentality is that you shouldn't need to handicap yourself in order to have fun. If I can handle a T6 rift in 5 minutes with Build X, and then I take the time to swap out a bunch of gear and skills and the result is that i get slaughtered on T6, then what was the point?There's also other problems with certain builds. I thoroughly enjoy, for example, Lightning and Firelight on the Crusader with Fist of the Heavens. Unfortunately, both those builds piss off other players not only by covering the screen with graphic effects, but being noisy as hell.Most skills aren't that good, anyway. A ton of them are just awkward to use.For the Wizard, the only exception to all this I've ever found is Meteor just because I like the concept, but it doesn't matter. I still can't do what I want with Meteor (which is spam the hell out of it and enjoy fire raining from the sky) because I can't find the damned Grand Vizier staff.


I'm not trying to be insulting in the least, but you have missed the point. If you take the time to swap gear and specs, and then get slaughtered in T6, go back to T1 and start the hunt for that specs ideal gear. If that isn't fun for you, then maybe you've reached the limit of what this game has to offer for you at this point. Play something else and come back later with a fresh perspective. I haven't taken a break since RoS came out, but took many, many breaks pre-RoS.
12/23/2014 09:58 AMPosted by Majes


This is a really interesting statement. It really makes me look at the term ARPG and the fact that "role" has been beaten out of the genre and been completely replaced by "action". These games weren't originally supposed to be about efficiency. They were supposed to be role playing games, but the competition and desire to be better than others forced them more and more towards the action end of the spectrum.

Diablo 3 is indeed about efficiency. But perhaps it should not be.


There's a lot of wisdom in this post. These games at their core are extensions of the Table-Top D&D role-playing games, and yet somewhere the 'character' in 'character development' was lost. i remember an old RPG character that had three ranks in a fishing skill. Sure, I could have used my experience for combat-related stuff only, but my back story included being a fisherman. Those fishing ranks were never used in the game, but they did a lot to help make the character more 'real' and special to me.

I sort of look for the same things in my Diablo characters, I have a Furnace, but opt to use Maximus on my Barbarian, just because of my vision of his character history. I kind of wish there were more aspects to the game that pushed the character. As silly as it was, the old 'Personalizing an Item' thing in D2 gave you a moment of pretending your characters was more than just a collection of 1's and 0's.
OP - unfortunately, your opinion is going to get lost here in the D3 whinnery. Many posters here believe that to play this game, running T6 with the greatest efficiency is the only way to play, and constitutes the end game. If this is what they consider fun, and they can do it, then they are getting the most out of the game. I do find it disrespectful, though, that they expect everyone else to see things their way. Very close minded indeed.

Problems with builds, problem with skills, these are better than those, etc. Sounds like a lot of whining to me. I currently only have one character, maybe two, capable of running T6 and most of the time I run T4 or below because I want to try different builds centered around a specific legendary proc I find. I have a wizard, for example, that currently runs T4, pretty well, with a lighting build that is so much fun to play. I've found three legs that could easily move her up the difficulty ladder but would destroy her build, so she stays where she is, for now (because I'm more interested in having fun).

Personally, I love trying different builds and could care less about the most efficient play or the most effective build. I agree with you, there is lots of items that can be used to experiment with and all kinds of different builds because of it. I, personally, could care less whether they can withstand T6 or not.

Keep up your experimentation and play for your own enjoyment!
12/23/2014 09:41 AMPosted by TEHvomit
If they have all played various styles and settled on the same spec, then your saying all of them have found every weapon of every type and tried them all with various specs. That, sir, has not happened.


If you dont think that's already happened then I dont know what to say, I would just stare at you in awe........

but don't dodge the accusation. this it what it was:

in post # 5 Beni said that 10-15 minute T6 runs is taking to long and equals "doing it wrong"

you reply in post # 8 that doing 4-5 minute Rifts is not the point of having fun. hinting that the player is wrong in his pursuit and they game is not wrong in its design.

my reply in post # 10 was that the game is NOT excused despite the way players are storming through the game like a boring mindless slot machine.

that even though playing for raw efficiency is incredibly stupid and boring in my opinion. that the game does not really offer a lot in contrast...and it should offer a huge amount

but you did not really reply to that specific point.

Instead you harped on about North Korea....a point I made because Blizzard is according to some in this thread unimpeachable and god like. And their game is nearly flawless. and the players are attempting to navigate the game and are foolish little insects doing it all wrong. that they need to throw away their knowledge and their desire and their pursuit of power. and just troddle around like little sheep with "funsies spells"

Meanwhile blizzard changes "nothing at all" and the players are slowly convincing them selves that Blizzard is still and even more so correct and god like!

that nothing about the game or it's design or the company is ever tarnished.

THAT'S why the North Korean comparison came out.

so by all means take me to school on why the game should not change at all and the players focusing to much on efficiency is deplorable.

PLEASE... I BEG YOU to try.

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