Player diversity = build diversity

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I think it is true people focus on the wrong thing. What's also true is that there is little choice.
12/23/2014 10:00 AMPosted by TEHvomit
12/23/2014 09:51 AMPosted by Orrion
The mentality is that you shouldn't need to handicap yourself in order to have fun. If I can handle a T6 rift in 5 minutes with Build X, and then I take the time to swap out a bunch of gear and skills and the result is that i get slaughtered on T6, then what was the point?There's also other problems with certain builds. I thoroughly enjoy, for example, Lightning and Firelight on the Crusader with Fist of the Heavens. Unfortunately, both those builds piss off other players not only by covering the screen with graphic effects, but being noisy as hell.Most skills aren't that good, anyway. A ton of them are just awkward to use.For the Wizard, the only exception to all this I've ever found is Meteor just because I like the concept, but it doesn't matter. I still can't do what I want with Meteor (which is spam the hell out of it and enjoy fire raining from the sky) because I can't find the damned Grand Vizier staff.


I'm not trying to be insulting in the least, but you have missed the point. If you take the time to swap gear and specs, and then get slaughtered in T6, go back to T1 and start the hunt for that specs ideal gear. If that isn't fun for you, then maybe you've reached the limit of what this game has to offer for you at this point. Play something else and come back later with a fresh perspective. I haven't taken a break since RoS came out, but took many, many breaks pre-RoS.


No, you missed the point. I'm talking about swapping gear and skills into the ideal for that setup, and having to step backward. The Electrocute build is a perfect example of this, as are many of the builds that have been presented for the Thursday builds.

My point was that some of those builds just aren't capable of doing T6 even in their ideal setups, and it feels lame to have to take a step backward (or several steps) to make the environment safe enough to use them.
12/23/2014 08:29 AMPosted by smokeypoo
The problem is Greater Rifts exist, and that is the highest level of difficulty in the game. The leaderboards put a spotlight on the viability of builds at these top end difficulties, so we've all learned that for every class there is one build that heavily outperforms all the others.


+1
why are we talking about something like "diversity" in any variation if all builds are viable at normal difficulty? i just dont get it... ^_^
I know what build I want to play that I can't play. Punch Barb. I could play that in D2 but I can't in D3!! I JUST WANT TO BE MIKE TYSON, BLIZZARD!!!! Minus the face tattoos and high voice and stuff.
12/23/2014 08:00 AMPosted by TheWildcard
I see a lot of topics talking about a lack of build diversity. I have to disagree. There are hundreds of items and builds in the game. The real lack of diversity comes from the type players.

I see someone ask a question like “I love the electrocute skill, what kinds of builds can I make with that?” Too many times, that player is met with responses like:
“why would you use electrocute when arcane torrent is better?”
“Why would you use lightning when fire is better?”
“Why would you use Wizard when Demon Hunter is better?”
“Why would you even play Diablo 3?”

The issue is that many people can’t play this game for fun…or more specifically, that the ‘fun’ is defined by dominating the highest level of competition possible, regardless of the path you need to take to get you there. There’s this mental condition where the video-game nerd measures their self worth (among other things), by their achievements in the game.

Instead, try picking out skills, items, or lore that you find interesting and just play that at the level of competition that gives you a fun experience. If that’s T1, that’s fine. If that’s GR45, that’s fine. You’ll be amazed at how many builds this game actually has when you stop worrying about measuring your fun by what level of Grift you can complete. I know I’m coming off as preachy, but it’s only coming from the realization that sacrificing play style and aesthetics for achievement is a surefire way to grow tired of the game. For example, I have a full Jade set. I don’t like the gameplay. I have the Pet build stuff, but it got a little stale. Ultimately, the Helltooth set was the most fun build I could create. Sure, It’s not nearly as good as the other WD builds, and it dropped me 10 grift levels with my WD, but it’s just…so cool. I love the idea of a Zombie-master. That aesthetic, and lore has made the Helltooth set a ‘build’ for me, regardless of its effectiveness.


What exactly is your point? That if someone out there can have fun with Electrocute the way it is today, then it doesn't matter how poorly the skill compares to others?

It sounds to me like you're simply absolving Blizzard of any responsibility to balance the game.
12/23/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Shurgosa
that even though playing for raw efficiency is incredibly stupid and boring in my opinion. that the game does not really offer a lot in contrast...and it should offer a huge amount


This point has been addressed at every turn. Perhaps I'm not being clear in my wording. My point was that no ONE person has found every item and tried every spec with the various gear to accent it.
If you want to complain about being bored and having nothing left to try, then make sure you have really tried it all. If you haven't, but still feel the need to complain, then maybe it's time to take a break from this game and find one you can get into.

I also didn't go off about North Korea, but pointed out in one single statement that neither of us have been there.
12/23/2014 12:05 PMPosted by Polaris
nstead, try picking out skills, items, or lore that you find interesting and just play that at the level of competition that gives you a fun experience. If that’s T1, that’s fine. If that’s GR45, that’s fine. You’ll be amazed at how many builds this game actually has when you stop worrying about measuring your fun by what level of Grift you can complete.


Or, we can look at it from a different view point. Such as, everyone was having fun with the exact same builds. They loved to stick with the most powerful builds that can cookie-cut every thing and every map in the highest difficulties. So in the end, there's not enough build diversity despite the fact people were having fun. So, they eventually got bored with that certain builds that made them enjoy the game. And now, they are looking for different builds for the equal "fun" they got from the ones they are bored with.
12/23/2014 11:48 AMPosted by Orrion
No, you missed the point. I'm talking about swapping gear and skills into the ideal for that setup, and having to step backward. The Electrocute build is a perfect example of this, as are many of the builds that have been presented for the Thursday builds.My point was that some of those builds just aren't capable of doing T6 even in their ideal setups, and it feels lame to have to take a step backward (or several steps) to make the environment safe enough to use them.


This post opened my eyes to an important point I was missing. Why is it that trying a new spec is taking a step backwards if you have to lower the difficulty. You can slow down, take it easy, and work your way through T6 with a lot less than most people head there with. They like to say, "you need x amount of y to do T6". That's simply not true. It may be relevant if your trying to break speed records for doing T6, but it is doable with a lot less than most say is necessary.
“why would you use electrocute when arcane torrent is better?”
“Why would you use lightning when fire is better?”
“Why would you use Wizard when Demon Hunter is better?”


RPGs are about your character. The goal of this gendre is to make your character strong. So why i choose spells, that make ma weak?

If i take it to extreme. If electrocute does 1 dmg and arcante torrent 100 damage. Will it be fun to use electrocute and do so low damage? No.

As long as skills are unbalanced we wont use weak skill. For me balance is, when spell are same +-10%. But if anything is many times batter....
12/23/2014 12:25 PMPosted by Nolf
If i take it to extreme. If electrocute does 1 dmg and arcante torrent 100 damage. Will it be fun to use electrocute and do so low damage? No.


well it is fun for some players... let them play with that build... there is no need to play above normal difficulty and talk about "diversity" anyways...
According to the devs, d3 is a loot finding game.
The whole point is to grind and acquire godly items.

If you dont use the builds blizzard dictates as endgame, you don't get as many items. And since RNG plays such a major role in roles on rare items less items usually means worse loot quality.

Using endgame build=farming fastes=higher difficulties=more items=better items. Thats how loot finding games are played.

Since the devs want us to grind so we can grind with their builds, i dont think its too much to ask that classes can have more then 1 or 2.
I hate seeing this type of coddling bull!@#$, OP.

There are different play styles, you just listed one of a casual player and made it sound like everyone that wants to be extremely competitive has a "mental issue"; go %^-* yourself :)

Some of us WANT to be competitive because we feel competitiveness is FUN, not because we base our self-worth on the highest grift we accomplish. Dont be an elitist !@#$, you arent playing the "right" way because you don't like competitiveness.

I will pick a m6 Dh because they clear the fastest and are the strongest, because I like being competitive. Now that M6 Dh is obviously the strongest build available right now, blizzard is nerfing it, instead of BUFFING other classes. This is what limits build variability. They nerf one thing and whatever wasn't nerfed normally becomes the FoTM (because it was buffed due to not being viable in higher grifts.). If they BUFFED rather than NERFED there would be more variety due to lacking builds once again becoming viable.
12/23/2014 12:16 PMPosted by TEHvomit
12/23/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Shurgosa
that even though playing for raw efficiency is incredibly stupid and boring in my opinion. that the game does not really offer a lot in contrast...and it should offer a huge amount


This point has been addressed at every turn. Perhaps I'm not being clear in my wording. My point was that no ONE person has found every item and tried every spec with the various gear to accent it.
If you want to complain about being bored and having nothing left to try, then make sure you have really tried it all. If you haven't, but still feel the need to complain, then maybe it's time to take a break from this game and find one you can get into.

I also didn't go off about North Korea, but pointed out in one single statement that neither of us have been there.


Fortunately people are capable of better analytical techniques than Brute Force exhaustive search.
Yet another "it's okay for everyone interested in playing an RPG to have to use limited skills and limited items to progress because I still have my sandbox" thread. Looking forward to what comes out of this gem here. Hopefully another all time great like this to be thankful for:

05/07/2014 03:33 PMPosted by Grimiku
This is an interesting thread with a lot of well constructed arguments, and it's definitely a subject I think about often. Obviously, the answer to this question is highly subjective, and I don't believe there is a single right answer. I like reading everyone's opinion on the matter, though, and I hope this discussion goes on.
12/23/2014 12:36 PMPosted by Putin666

Some of us WANT to be competitive because we feel competitiveness is FUN


This
12/23/2014 12:22 PMPosted by TEHvomit
12/23/2014 11:48 AMPosted by Orrion
No, you missed the point. I'm talking about swapping gear and skills into the ideal for that setup, and having to step backward. The Electrocute build is a perfect example of this, as are many of the builds that have been presented for the Thursday builds.My point was that some of those builds just aren't capable of doing T6 even in their ideal setups, and it feels lame to have to take a step backward (or several steps) to make the environment safe enough to use them.


This post opened my eyes to an important point I was missing. Why is it that trying a new spec is taking a step backwards if you have to lower the difficulty. You can slow down, take it easy, and work your way through T6 with a lot less than most people head there with. They like to say, "you need x amount of y to do T6". That's simply not true. It may be relevant if your trying to break speed records for doing T6, but it is doable with a lot less than most say is necessary.


Now that I find myself with less time to play games overall, I am less than willing to "slow down" and take half an hour per Rift. Besides, what does that show? That I can make it work? Ok, fine, but unless I REALLY enjoy attacks like Sweep Attack and Fallen Sword (I don't) for my Crusader, then I'm far better off just turning up the difficulty and using Fires of the Heaven or Phalanx. The difficulty doesn't feel as artificial that way, and I get more drops, more gold, more mats, etc.

I don't doubt that there are people who enjoy doing what you're saying, but it doesn't mean Blizzard's system isn't broken as hell.

See, the problem is that ARPGs and the like are supposed to be about character progression. Since pretty much the only aspect of character progression that exists in this game is gear improvements and the efficiency and difficulty increases that come with it (and Paragons, but meh), it feels really lame to essentially cancel out that progression by gear and skill swapping.
12/23/2014 12:05 PMPosted by Polaris
12/23/2014 08:00 AMPosted by TheWildcard
I see a lot of topics talking about a lack of build diversity. I have to disagree. There are hundreds of items and builds in the game. The real lack of diversity comes from the type players.

I see someone ask a question like “I love the electrocute skill, what kinds of builds can I make with that?” Too many times, that player is met with responses like:
“why would you use electrocute when arcane torrent is better?”
“Why would you use lightning when fire is better?”
“Why would you use Wizard when Demon Hunter is better?”
“Why would you even play Diablo 3?”

The issue is that many people can’t play this game for fun…or more specifically, that the ‘fun’ is defined by dominating the highest level of competition possible, regardless of the path you need to take to get you there. There’s this mental condition where the video-game nerd measures their self worth (among other things), by their achievements in the game.

Instead, try picking out skills, items, or lore that you find interesting and just play that at the level of competition that gives you a fun experience. If that’s T1, that’s fine. If that’s GR45, that’s fine. You’ll be amazed at how many builds this game actually has when you stop worrying about measuring your fun by what level of Grift you can complete. I know I’m coming off as preachy, but it’s only coming from the realization that sacrificing play style and aesthetics for achievement is a surefire way to grow tired of the game. For example, I have a full Jade set. I don’t like the gameplay. I have the Pet build stuff, but it got a little stale. Ultimately, the Helltooth set was the most fun build I could create. Sure, It’s not nearly as good as the other WD builds, and it dropped me 10 grift levels with my WD, but it’s just…so cool. I love the idea of a Zombie-master. That aesthetic, and lore has made the Helltooth set a ‘build’ for me, regardless of its effectiveness.


What exactly is your point? That if someone out there can have fun with Electrocute the way it is today, then it doesn't matter how poorly the skill compares to others?

It sounds to me like you're simply absolving Blizzard of any responsibility to balance the game.


In a nutshell, yes. Electrocute shouldn't compare with Arcane Torrent builds because one generates resource and one costs resource. But, there are viable electrocute builds (albeit at lower difficulties) and that shouldn't be dismissed as a non-build.

Builds in this game are a bell curve. Some are really weak T1-4, most fall in the middle T5-GR 35, and some are very strong GR 35-GR45. I don't see the issue with just playing your build at wherever it happens to fall on the curve. There's not a lack of variety, there's just very few at the end of the spectrum. I don't see the issue in that as long as it's proportionate to the percentage of players at that spectrum (probably the same bell curve).
12/23/2014 12:16 PMPosted by TEHvomit
12/23/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Shurgosa
that even though playing for raw efficiency is incredibly stupid and boring in my opinion. that the game does not really offer a lot in contrast...and it should offer a huge amount


This point has been addressed at every turn. Perhaps I'm not being clear in my wording. My point was that no ONE person has found every item and tried every spec with the various gear to accent it.
If you want to complain about being bored and having nothing left to try, then make sure you have really tried it all. If you haven't, but still feel the need to complain, then maybe it's time to take a break from this game and find one you can get into.

I also didn't go off about North Korea, but pointed out in one single statement that neither of us have been there.


Oh so now I'm still at fault?. what a shock...I need to leave the game to remedy my boredom?......it never ends does it?

just blame absolutely everything and everyone but never the game........

Skills boring? that's the players' fault for wanting efficiency.

Items boring? that's the players' fault Hasn't found "every single item"

Builds boring? that's the players' fault They must lack creativity.

Don't try to think and see any shred of the game could be way better oh GOD no.

.....Not in North Korea...

Just vilify all the dissenters and continue marching on, no matter what...

Voices against the group must be silenced....

Are you picking up what I'm putting down?
12/23/2014 12:36 PMPosted by Putin666
I hate seeing this type of coddling bull!@#$, OP.

There are different play styles, you just listed one of a casual player and made it sound like everyone that wants to be extremely competitive has a "mental issue"; go %^-* yourself :)

Some of us WANT to be competitive because we feel competitiveness is FUN, not because we base our self-worth on the highest grift we accomplish. Dont be an elitist !@#$, you arent playing the "right" way because you don't like competitiveness.

I will pick a m6 Dh because they clear the fastest and are the strongest, because I like being competitive. Now that M6 Dh is obviously the strongest build available right now, blizzard is nerfing it, instead of BUFFING other classes. This is what limits build variability. They nerf one thing and whatever wasn't nerfed normally becomes the FoTM (because it was buffed due to not being viable in higher grifts.). If they BUFFED rather than NERFED there would be more variety due to lacking builds once again becoming viable.


You don't see it as an issue that you basically don't care what you play as long as its competitive? It's just kinda sad. The love of competition is one thing, and I'm also a very competitive person, but dismissing everything in the game that isn't the biggest, fastest, strongest isn't a reflection on the game, it's a reflection on you.

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